1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I did mention his one-man quest to slay Imshael, right?

Which has absolutely nothing to do with chevalier initiation rites.

[The Elder King]

You have an excellent point. This would be a first step. The other changes that have to occur is to change the minds of the people. Need a good Ruler that is willing to allow elves in their council. Have elves in their military. I would have taken a different approach from Celene. She wanted them in the Universities. I would want them to shine in several locations so that they become assets to all the community. Think of them as nighthawk archers. Make them part of the chevaliers. I bet that nighttime killing will stop. They can do it if they want to it is not impossible. The more the elves become an asset to the warrior class the more respect they are going to get.

Making them chevaliers at this point (or prior to TME) would be practically impossible. There'd even be more problems that make them enter the university.
Starting recruiting them archers would be more likely, though it'd require the support of one/some nobles that would pay for their training and equipments.

[Iakus]

I mean in the sense they had a code that empathized being a champion of morality,honour and virtue but most real knights...weren't pleasant people infact most were little more then thugs.

 

Impossible to accurately say "most" but yes, the ideal and the reality are definitely not always the same.

 

Though I'm sure there are those who try. 

[MisterJB]

Or Hawke siding with the Templars saved more lives in the long term.

 

That's the lovely thing about hypothetical "The Greater Good" arguments.

Anyone can use it to justify anything because what constitutes as "the greater good" is subjective and because we can claim that what we perceive as it, will always come to pass.

 

"Freeing the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future.

Locking the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future."

 

Hey, here's another aplication of that logic. We should just kill every single elf now. We kill 10000 elves now but, if in a period of a couple of centuries, orlesian nobles will kill 50000, then killing all elves now will spare those remaining 40000 painful deaths.
 

[LobselVith8]

All the Divine wanted was for Celene to end the uprising. How was entirely up to Celene

Are you honestly saying the Divine didn't expect bloodshed to be the solution used against the elves? Thousands of elves had died after Leliana told Celene the price for Justinia's cooperation; I don't see why the Divine should be absolved of the role she played in these events.

[TheJediSaint]

I mean in the sense they had a code that empathized being a champion of morality,honour and virtue but most real knights...weren't pleasant people infact most were little more then thugs.

 

Knight generally became knights by killing the right people for someone in power.

[The Baconer]

With that bit of pedantry out of the way, I will say that I'm pretty sure there's not going to be a clean way to resolve Orlai's civil war.

 

Good. That would defeat the point of the Transfiguration.

[Milan92]

That's the lovely thing about hypothetical "The Greater Good" arguments.

Anyone can use it to justify anything because what constitutes as "the greater good" is subjective and because we can claim that what we perceive as it, will always come to pass.

 

"Freeing the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future.

Locking the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future."

 

Hey, here's another aplication of that logic. We should just kill every single elf now. We kill 10000 elves now but, if in a period of a couple of centuries, orlesian nobles will kill 50000, then killing all elves now will spare those remaining 40000 painful deaths.
 

 

I laughed

[LobselVith8]

Yes, but's it's rude to remind them of that.

For an Andrastian, it's a demon. The Dalish don't use the distinction, since they view all spirits as dangerous.

[The Baconer]

Hey, here's another aplication of that logic. We should just kill every single elf now. We kill 10000 elves now but, if in a period of a couple of centuries, orlesian nobles will kill 50000, then killing all elves now will spare those remaining 40000 painful deaths.
 

 

How many Orlesian nobles are there, I wonder?

[MisterJB]

Are you honestly saying the Divine didn't expect bloodshed to be the solution used against the elves? Thousands of elves had died after Leliana told Celene the price for Justinia's cooperation; I don't see why the Divine should be absolved of the role she played in these events.

The elves were rebelling and killing humans in order to force them out of Halamshiral. They weren't staging protests for equal rights.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

For an Andrastian, it's a demon. The Dalish don't use the distinction, since they view all spirits as dangerous.

 

Do we really have to do this in this thread too now?

[Iakus]

Are you honestly saying the Divine didn't expect bloodshed to be the solution used against the elves? Thousands of elves had died after Leliana told Celene the price for Justinia's cooperation; I don't see why the Divine should be absolved of the role she played in these events.

 

Bloodshed was likely, yes.

 

But bloodshed was going to come no matter what Celene did or didn't do.  Even if she stuck with Briala's assasination plan, there'd still be reprisals against the elves.

 

All the Divine's words did was accelerate teh timetable.

[Wolfen09]

Im just gonna smash all the eluvians i see and take away any advantage briala has...  shes going to die in my game

[Iakus]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with chevalier initiation rites.

 

Nowhere in the book is there any indication that Michel was proud of his actions that night.  In fact, it seems to be one of the more shameful memories he has.

[MWImexico]

... It is Orlesian society that forces him to hide his background.

 

...

Yes, and Briala is trying to change this.

His life is partly build on a lie, and self hatred, this is wrong.

[TheJediSaint]

Mommy issues and a licence to kill are never a good combination.

[AresKeith]

Are you honestly saying the Divine didn't expect bloodshed to be the solution used against the elves? Thousands of elves had died after Leliana told Celene the price for Justinia's cooperation; I don't see why the Divine should be absolved of the role she played in these events.

 

Maybe because she would've expected Celene to go a more civil route instead of what she did

 

bloodshed was bound to happen anyway

[Xilizhra]

Nowhere in the book is there any indication that Michel was proud of his actions that night.  In fact, it seems to be one of the more shameful memories he has.

That's nice. Now, if he'd do something like act against said acts, or just act against the chevaliers altogether if they can't be convinced to drop this, it might mean something.

[Shadow Fox]

Yeah...no

Didn't it?Hypothetically siding with the Templars would mean that Hawke wouldn't be fighting abominations and Templars on his/her own and would result in the conflict being ended quicker thus mitigating the damage. 

[Wolfen09]

Mommy issues and a licence to kill are never a good combination.

 

And father issues and a light saber are?  skywalker

[LobselVith8]

Applying the logic Lobselvith is using to defend siding with Briala and prolonging a civil war, I can say that, since the chevaliers protect orlesians citizens from the nation's enemies; which include the elves; they have saved far more elven lives than those they killed.

I'm not one to justify rapes and murders by chevaliers on the basis of the lives that have been saved.

What I'm addressing is fighting against institutionalized racism when there's a chance to change lives for an innumerable number of men, women, and children, and maintaining this freedom for future generations. I'm in favor of supporting a character who wants to free her people from centuries of oppression.

And let's be fair, the instructor claimed that the elves to be killed had harmed nobles. Of course, the veracity of this claim can be called into question but it may aslo be true and the city guards reserve elven criminals for the chevalier's initiation.

You're justifying the deaths of innocents in this initiation rite, and you're intentionally misconstruing what is explicitly stated in the novel. Your retort is openly contradicted by Michel's own words.

[Xilizhra]

Didn't it?Hypothetically siding with the Templars would mean that Hawke wouldn't be fighting abominations and Templars on his/her own and would result in the conflict being ended quicker thus mitigating the damage. 

No; the quest's time is not shortened on the templar route.

[TheJediSaint]

And father issues and a light saber are?  skywalker

 

Well, to be fair...Shut-up!

[Iakus]

Yes, and Briala is trying to change this.

His life is partly build on a lie, and self hatred, this is wrong.

 

She isn't, actually.

 

SHe's trying to carve out a new society for elves, seperate from that of Orlais.

 

Do you really think Michel would have any place in that new society?