1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfen09]

arent you a little short for a guard?

[Milan92]

Mommy issues and a licence to kill are never a good combination.

 

Hey now. James Bond always did a pretty good job!

[MisterJB]

I'm not one to justify rapes and murders by chevaliers on the basis of the lives that have been saved.

 

No, you're one to justify rapes and murders by civil war on the basis of the elven lives that might be saved by said rapes and murders.
 

Violate for victory, everyone!

 

 

You're justifying the deaths of innocents in this initiation rite, and you're intentionally misconstruing what is explicitly stated in the novel. Your retort is openly contradicted by Michel's own words.

It is not explicitly stated. Ser Michel suspects they are being lied to. He has no evidence those elves were innocent.

[Iakus]

That's nice. Now, if he'd do something like act against said acts, or just act against the chevaliers altogether if they can't be convinced to drop this, it might mean something.

 

He was Celene's champion.  Her personal bodyguard and her representative on the field of battle and duels of honor.  Keeping her alive so she could implement her reforms (however incrementally they might come) is pretty much all he can do.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It is not explicitly stated. Ser Michel suspects they are being lied to. He has no evidence those elves were innocent.

 

Yeah but he also knew whether they were innocent wasn't the point.

[MWImexico]

SHe's trying to carve out a new society for elves, seperate from that of Orlais.

 

 

Wait, what? Did she said that on the book?

[Cobra's_back]

Making them chevaliers at this point (or prior to TME) would be practically impossible. There'd even be more problems that make them enter the university.
Starting recruiting them archers would be more likely, though it'd require the support of one/some nobles that would pay for their training and equipments.

 

What if the Ruler payed for the training to make them part of the military and guards for the cities. This would make them loved by the people they protect. When Celene was putting them in the Universities, I could see that humans would resent it. Better to have them seen saving lives first and gradually change everyone's views while maintaining strict laws against the violence.

[Shadow Fox]

That's the lovely thing about hypothetical "The Greater Good" arguments.

Anyone can use it to justify anything because what constitutes as "the greater good" is subjective and because we can claim that what we perceive as it, will always come to pass.

 

"Freeing the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future.

Locking the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future."

 

Hey, here's another aplication of that logic. We should just kill every single elf now. We kill 10000 elves now but, if in a period of a couple of centuries, orlesian nobles will kill 50000, then killing all elves now will spare those remaining 40000 painful deaths.
 

Exactly on the mark.

[Iakus]

Wait, what? Did she said that on the book?

 

She states she intends to play Celene and Gaspard off each other, dragging out the civil war as long as possible while she unites the alienages with the eluvians.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Wait, what? Did she said that on the book?

 

Technically all she says about her long term agenda is that she's trying to make sure Celene and Gaspard fight as long as possible so hopefully the elves "work free from their bonds" in the chaos.

[The Baconer]

It is not explicitly stated. Ser Michel suspects they are being lied to. He has no evidence those elves were innocent.

 

It wasn't even a specific group ("those") of elves. They were simply let loose on a section of the slums.

[LobselVith8]

That's the lovely thing about hypothetical "The Greater Good" arguments.
Anyone can use it to justify anything because what constitutes as "the greater good" is subjective and because we can claim that what we perceive as it, will always come to pass.

Perhaps there's a reason you continually ignore the actual statement, and try to move the goalpost of the discussion?

Helping Briala end elven oppression is the focus of the statements. Helping bring an end to a system that systematically inflicts harm and death on elves is why it's brought up that future generations can thrive when as a consequence of this conflict. I don't see it as subjective at all.

"Freeing the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future.
Locking the mages will cause deaths now but save more in the future."

As long as we ignore the nuances of the debates against the Chantry controlled Circles, of course.

Hey, here's another aplication of that logic. We should just kill every single elf now. We kill 10000 elves now but, if in a period of a couple of centuries, orlesian nobles will kill 50000, then killing all elves now will spare those remaining 40000 painful deaths.

Is there a purpose to this nonsensical statement? Because it has nothing to do with the discussion.

[MWImexico]

She states she intends to play Celene and Gaspard off each other, dragging out the civil war as long as possible while she unites the alienages with the eluvians.

 

Not quite the same thing I personally think that in DAI she will use the power she gathered until now as a leverage to bargain more rights for the elves either with the Inquisitor, either with the futur ruler of Orlais.

[Hellion Rex]

Ummm....anyone wanna give me the scoop on where we are in this debate?

[MisterJB]

Perhaps there's a reason you continually ignore the actual statement, and try to move the goalpost of the discussion?

Helping Briala end elven oppression is the focus of the statements. Helping bring an end to a system that systematically inflicts harm and death on elves is why it's brought up that future generations can thrive when as a consequence of this conflict. I don't see it as subjective at all.

 

I say that the humans alive right now are more important than hypothetical future generations of elves that may or may not even be born.

 

Holy crap, I just made it subjective. Am I a wizard?
 

[Shadow Fox]

No; the quest's time is not shortened on the templar route.

And going to the Circle from Redcliffe takes 15 seconds in-real time but in-game time is said to take close to a month.

[Milan92]

Ummm....anyone wanna give me the scoop on where we are in this debate?

 

I think the Chevalier Initiation Rite. Which chapter comes after that?

[Hellion Rex]

Holy crap, I just made it subjective. Am I a wizard?
 

Ummm, burn the witch?

[Hellion Rex]

I think the Chevalier Initiation Rite. Which chapter comes after that?

Oooo boy. We have a long ways to go then lol

[TheJediSaint]

It really jumps around depending on what parts of the book people want to cherry pick.

[LobselVith8]

No, you're one to justify rapes and murders by civil war on the basis of the elven lives that might be saved by said rapes and murders.

Violate for victory, everyone!

I'm addressing that Briala taking action for a better future for the elves might bring about a better future for the elves.

Honestly, it's not that complicated.

It is not explicitly stated. Ser Michel suspects they are being lied to. He has no evidence those elves were innocent.

It is, by Michel's own words:

"Michel had known that the tale the masters had told was mostly likely a lie, and that even if it were true, they had no way of knowing which elves had committed the crime. He had also known that the truth was not the point of this last test. He had drunk the wine, and tested his blade."

[MisterJB]

Yeah...no

I can prove it mathematically.

[Iakus]

Not quite the same thing I personally think that in DAI she will use the power she gathered until now as a leverage to bargain more rights for the elves either with the Inquisitor, either with the futur ruler of Orlais.

 

Unless Briala intends to upload her mind into a fleet of Reapers, I don't think she's going to be able to convince Orlesian humans and elves to live peacefully side by side under one nation

[Hellion Rex]

I can prove it mathematically.

Oh, please do. I'd love to see this.

 

 

Edit: Let's keep this on TME, not the Mage Templar War. We can debate that in another thread.

[LobselVith8]

I say that the humans alive right now are more important than hypothetical future generations of elves that may or may not even be born.

Holy crap, I just made it subjective. Am I a wizard?

No, you're a troll who spent pages trying to get me to engage you in a flame war. I don't really see the purpose to it. You're welcome to ignore me if you're disinterested in an actual discussion.