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The Masked Empire and DAI's plot [Spoilers]


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#876
Iakus

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Or he could have thrown in with Briala.

 

He's not Celene's champion anymore, but he also can't honorably work against her.  Gaspard even says he won't insult him by offering Michel a place at his side.

 

So instead Michel is bowing out of the struggle entirely.  



#877
Hellion Rex

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No, I do not oppose reasonable checks and balances on Templars to prevent abuse of power.

Then we are in agreement, sir.



#878
TheJediSaint

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Logic dictates that you don't disband the army. You punish the ones that commit the crime. Now take that concept and bring it into dragon age.

 

Because logic has so much traction in Thedas.



#879
TheKomandorShepard

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If only Lambert listened like that...

Then it wasn't longer dragon age only the walking abomnation series divine was so naive and destructive that listening her would be like following blind.

 

 

'Truth' is not universal. Nobody see the true world. The world anyone sees is shaped by their perceptions. What is 'true' to one person is not the same as what is 'true' to another person.

You killed someone?

I did

truth



#880
Cobra's_back

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Any soldier who does deliberately rape or murder innocents should be punished, yes. They're called war criminals. 

 

Unfortunately for the Chevaliers, this includes every member. In fact, they are the only faction where saying "They are all murderers" is accurate. Not even the Darkspawn are that concrete in that statement.

 

Correct and war criminals were punished. That is the your point. The above the law should can't be tolerated anymore. 


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#881
TheJediSaint

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So instead Michel is bowing out of the struggle entirely.  

 

There's also his new quest to try and kill the Demon spirit that he kinda-sorta set free.



#882
MisterJB

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Any soldier who does deliberately rape or murder innocents should be punished, yes. They're called war criminals. 

 

Unfortunately for the Chevaliers, this includes every member. In fact, they are the only faction where saying "They are all murderers" is accurate. Not even the Darkspawn are that concrete in that statement.

 

We don't have evidence that the rites of initiation are the same in all classes of chevaliers or even that those elves were innocents.

Besides, murder under duresse means the murderer is blameless.
 



#883
Cobra's_back

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Because logic has so much traction in Thedas.

 

Then it needs to. 



#884
Hanako Ikezawa

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You killed someone?

I did

truth

In that situation, everyone has the same perception of truth so it becomes truth.

 

I assume you didn't actually kill someone and used it as a hypothetical example, right? :?



#885
Wolfen09

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no murder is blameless, you just have to blame it on someone else



#886
Xilizhra

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He's not Celene's champion anymore, but he also can't honorably work against her.  Gaspard even says he won't insult him by offering Michel a place at his side.

 

So instead Michel is bowing out of the struggle entirely.  

Then Michel's honor is interfering with justice.



#887
Shadow Fox

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Go explain that to Celene and Gaspard, that they shouldn't be at war with each other and won't gain anything by prolonging conflicts or starting them.

Implying that I agree with Gaspard starting the war...I don't.

 

I do however think Celene has a right to defend her power even if I don't agree with everything she does.



#888
Xilizhra

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We don't have evidence that the rites of initiation are the same in all classes of chevaliers or even that those elves were innocents.

Besides, murder under duresse means the murderer is blameless.

Would the chevaliers themselves be killed if they didn't do it?



#889
MisterJB

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Logic dictates that you don't disband the army. You punish the ones that commit the crime. Now take that concept and bring it into dragon age.

 

And I'm all for punishing chevaliers that commit crimes.

But if not possible, then it's unthinkable to disband the order that forms the greatest Warriors in Thedas just because some are corrupt.
 



#890
Palidane

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I think that the elves trying to gain their independence by force is basically suicide. I can't think of any conceivable way that would work out. Even if they take advantage of the chaos and get a solid foundation, they are one country of elves on a continent of humans. Any possible action they take will result in an escalating war of annihilation that they will lose. Again.

 

No, if the elves want autonomy, they need to do it how Shartan did: find a big, desperate conflict, and back the winner. The elves can only be independent with the consent of their neighbors, so they need to focus on securing that consent as soon as possible.


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#891
JeffZero

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Then Michel's honor is interfering with justice.


Good, maybe he can prevent another church from blowing up.
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#892
Hanako Ikezawa

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We don't have evidence that the rites of initiation are the same in all classes of chevaliers or even that those elves were innocents.

Besides, murder under duresse means the murderer is blameless.
 

So you're going to think that those were isolated cases until Bioware goes out and flat out says it?

 

And no, we've had countless trials of war criminals, and most are still found guilty. 



#893
TheKomandorShepard

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In that situation, everyone has the same perception of truth so it becomes truth.

 

I assume you didn't actually kill someone and used it as a hypothetical example, right? :?

It is called reallity :devil:

 

Well if i killed someone i would rather keep that for myself hm? ;)



#894
Hanako Ikezawa

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And I'm all for punishing chevaliers that commit crimes.

But if not possible, then it's unthinkable to disband the order that forms the greatest Warriors in Thedas just because some are corrupt.
 

And they've all committed crimes. There, we're done. 

They aren't the greatest Order in Thedas. In Orlais, yes, but Thedas, no. That goes to most likely the Grey Wardens.


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#895
MisterJB

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So you're going to think that those were isolated cases until Bioware goes out and flat out says it?

 

And no, we've had countless trials of war criminals, and most are still found guilty. 

Considering that the two chevaliers we have seen were honorable men...yes.

 

And, more often that not, in war trials there are tons of political interests behind them. Hardly proper justice.



#896
Palidane

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And I'm all for punishing chevaliers that commit crimes.

But if not possible, then it's unthinkable to disband the order that forms the greatest Warriors in Thedas just because some are corrupt.
 

I'm going to contest that the Chevaliers are the greatest warriors in Thedas. They're definitely in the running, and they might even win "Most Arrogant and Narcissistic", but slaughtering defenseless elves doesn't really compare to drinking darkspawn blood.



#897
Iakus

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Definitely in his book, very possibly in the series.

 

Briala is owed a favor from Michel, for keeping his true bloodline a secret, once she is arrested she notices he tenses up. As she says;

"[he was worried] because he would actually have held himself to his promise. He was a more honorable noble than most actual nobles."

He would've kept his word and probably taken on the Chevaliers and Celene's word in order to honor his deal with Briala.

 

 

Also he spared Mihris, the Dalish First when he had absolutely no reason to, and she had only moments ago tried to kill him.

 

Michel is right up there with Evangeline as far as personal integrity, imo



#898
Iakus

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Would the chevaliers themselves be killed if they didn't do it?

 

It's entirely possible.  Training is supposed to be quite brutal.  There's a reason being a chevalier is so prestigious



#899
MisterJB

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And they've all committed crimes. There, we're done. 

They aren't the greatest Order in Thedas. In Orlais, yes, but Thedas, no. That goes to most likely the Grey Wardens.

They have not.

 

And they are the greatest Order of Warriors in Thedas. If the Magisters are the most powerful mages and the Crows the most skilled Rogues, then the Chevaliers are the greatest Warriors. One of them killed seven dalish elves plus the First; three of them with a blanket; after having been beaten to a pulp. Two killed one Revenant and one Arcane Horror after having fought amongst themselves.

 

The Grey Wardens are a collection of all three classes, hence why I didn't take them into account.



#900
Hanako Ikezawa

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Considering that the two chevaliers we have seen were honorable men...yes.

 

And, more often that not, in war trials there are tons of political interests behind them. Hardly proper justice.

So let me turn it around: You're willing to spare an Order known for committing grievous crimes because of a couple 'good' eggs?