1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, to be fair, Michel's class was just release into the slums and told there were criminals there.

Even if there were, they weren't really given a description of what they looked like so, there was no way to distinguish between the innocent and the guilty.

 

Fair point, But my meaning is this.

 

They were told to do this, They were released into an area where a superior told them criminals were.

 

They did their duty, if that happens to be murder its "murder". Not their place to comment on the right or wrong of it, they are swords, not juries, Executioners not judges.

 

Its no shame to them to follow their orders, In fact? Wish a few more folks in our reality were less whiny when it came to doing dirty work when it got ordered.

 

Not saying i agree with that little rite (i actually wish they brought in criminals for them to kill, less random chaos to it) but i will not fault a man for following a legal order regardless of the morality of it.

[Master Warder Z_]

It is the book.

 

I just recently read the book, it said nothing of it being illegal to be an elf there.

 

._.

[Master Warder Z_]

Alright well that's my cue to leave, because if you're going to ignore a fact from a book and then make that your argument, well, it's just not worth the aggravation tbh, no matter what your conclusion is.

 

His opinion on what his superior's asked him to do is a fact?

 

[Iakus]

 

Simple. The Inquisition acts as a peacekeeping buffer between the two nations, since being a peacekeeping force is pretty much half of our job apparently, the other half being to close the Veil Tears. 

 

 

So the Inquisition becomes the White Star Fleet?

[Palidane]

Fair point, But my meaning is this.

 

They were told to do this, They were released into an area where a superior told them criminals were.

 

They did their duty, if that happens to be murder its "murder". Not their place to comment on the right or wrong of it, they are swords, not juries, Executioners not judges.

 

Its no shame to them to follow their orders, In fact? Wish a few more folks in our reality were less whiny when it came to doing dirty work when it got ordered.

 

Not saying i agree with that little rite (i actually wish they brought in criminals for them to kill, less random chaos to it) but i will not fault a man for following a legal order regardless of the morality of it.

Uhh, okay. I, however, will totally fault these people for following immoral orders. Because, you know, they are free-thinking humans beings, not weapons.

[LobselVith8]

So the Inquisition becomes the White Star Fleet?

And the Inquisitor is Thedas' John Sheridan.

[MisterJB]

Uhh, okay. I, however, will totally fault these people for following immoral orders. Because, you know, they are free-thinking humans beings, not weapons.

Their motto is "Death before Dishonor" and while honor is a concept hard to grasp, it seems following your lord's orders is placed above killing defenseless people.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So the Inquisition becomes the White Star Fleet?

What did they do again? Been a while since I've looked at Babylon 5.

[Cobra's_back]

Agreed. I might even go as far to say Michel is a good person, but I won't dismiss his murders as inconsequential.

 

(Btw, how are you supposed to pronounce this guy's name? Is it like "michelle", or "michael", or "mikal"?)

 

I think we could say that he was following orders. The crimes should fall on his trainer if Michel thought he was going to get killed if he disobeyed those orders or if there is no law protecting the Elves. This is the point that so many of us are pointing out. I do not believe there are any laws protecting the elves. 

 

This is the part that so badly needs to change.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Their motto is "Death before Dishonor" and while honor is a concept hard to grasp, it seems following your lord's orders is placed above killing defenseless people.

So they are Hydra, then?

 

[Cobra's_back]

Fair point, But my meaning is this.

 

They were told to do this, They were released into an area where a superior told them criminals were.

 

They did their duty, if that happens to be murder its "murder". Not their place to comment on the right or wrong of it, they are swords, not juries, Executioners not judges.

 

Its no shame to them to follow their orders, In fact? Wish a few more folks in our reality were less whiny when it came to doing dirty work when it got ordered.

 

Not saying i agree with that little rite (i actually wish they brought in criminals for them to kill, less random chaos to it) but i will not fault a man for following a legal order regardless of the morality of it.

 

You forgot due process. They didn't know who the criminals were and the book stated that Michel thought his trainer was not telling the truth. This is guilt by looking like an elf.

[MisterJB]

More like not so different from every soldier in history. At least they have a code of honor such as "backstabbing your allies means your life is forfeit."

[Palidane]

I think we could say that he was following orders. The crimes should fall on his trainer if Michel thought he was going to get killed if he disobeyed those orders or if there is no law protecting the Elves. This is the point that so many of us are pointing out. I do not believe there are any laws protecting the elves. 

 

This is the part that so badly needs to change.

Ehh. I think he should have refused to do it, no matter the consequences. There's always a choice, even if it really, truly, sucks.

[Cobra's_back]

I just recently read the book, it said nothing of it being illegal to be an elf there.

 

._.

 

The original comment meant that if you are an elf you can be killed just because you are an Elf. You don't have the right to exist. This is what I think Palidane meant.

[Shadow Fox]

Briala is taking action when the alternative is to do nothing. I don't buy into the argument that Briala should do nothing when the elves have suffered for generations.


I'm speaking in the hope that it's possible to aid the elves. If siding with Briala is an option for rights or autonomy for the Dales, all the better.

Briala's "action" is to prolong a bloody conflict that will kill many for as long as she can for her benefit, yeah no that doesn't fly with me so she's going down. And I don't buy that this was her only option.

 

Fair enough I hope there are ways to help elves get a better lot in Orlais without innocents suffering for it and that don't make me a war profiteer. 

[Cobra's_back]

Ehh. I think he should have refused to do it, no matter the consequences. There's always a choice, even if it really, truly, sucks.

 

True, but legally he can't be punished without the laws in place. Technically he is not a murderer, but morally he is by our current day standards.

 

I agree: "There's always a choice, even if it really, truly, sucks." I also could never do this.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

True, but legally he can't be punished without the laws in place. Technically he is not a murderer, but morally he is by our current day standards.

 

I agree: "There's always a choice, even if it really, truly, sucks." I also could never do this.

No, technically he is a murderer. Legally, he isn't. 

[Cobra's_back]

Their motto is "Death before Dishonor" and while honor is a concept hard to grasp, it seems following your lord's orders is placed above killing defenseless people.

 

I agree this is what they do and it is flawed.

[LobselVith8]

Briala's "action" is to prolong a bloody conflict that will kill many for as long as she can for her benefit, yeah no that doesn't fly with me so she's going down. And I don't buy that this was her only option.

Given how many centuries things have gone unchanged for the elves, in terms of the gross inequality they face, it seems to be the best of limited options.

Fair enough I hope there are ways to help elves get a better lot in Orlais without innocents suffering for it and that don't make me a war profiteer.

War profiteer? It's not like Andraste wrote the Imperium a strongly worded letter when she wanted to see her people free; she united with Shartan and the elves to wage war. Sometimes, you need to take action. Briala is aiming to use the Eluvians to the advantage of the elves, because Celene and Gaspard won't work towards that goal. The only one working to help the elves is Briala.

[Cobra's_back]

No, technically he is a murderer. Legally, he isn't. 

 

Thank you I stand corrected.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thank you I stand corrected.

No problem.

[TheJediSaint]

You can also be killed for being a peasant.

[Cobra's_back]

Uhh, okay. I, however, will totally fault these people for following immoral orders. Because, you know, they are free-thinking humans beings, not weapons.

 

I have the wrong background for this but could you have defined the problem correctly. You and I are free-thinking humans beings, not weapons, but are they. Have they been trained not to think freely.

 

This is why I feel strongly that the Ruler of this nation has to commit to changing laws and including methods of enforcing those laws. I also feel strong the elves must be integrated into the guards and military to make sure the changes occur. 

[Shadow Fox]

Given how many centuries things have gone unchanged for the elves, in terms of the gross inequality they face, it seems to be the best of limited options.


War profiteer? It's not like Andraste wrote the Imperium a strongly worded letter when she wanted to see her people free; she united with Shartan and the elves to wage war. Sometimes, you need to take action. Briala is aiming to use the Eluvians to the advantage of the elves, because Celene and Gaspard won't work towards that goal. The only one working to help the elves is Briala.

As opposed to simply using the Eluvians to reduce casualties to foster goodwill and sympathy among humans and elves while Celene and Gaspard invite anger and resentment among the populace for letting them die over a glorified pissing contest?

 

 Except Briala isn't fighting a war like Andraste did she's playing both sides from the sidelines to keep one going to benefit her goal like an arms dealer supplying both sides with weapons for money.

[MisterJB]

http://dragonage.wik..._of_the_Dowager

Remember this codex? She's in the book.