1992 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Maybe for certain classes they exist, but they are a luxury of those classes, and often do not apply to the lower strata of society.  No one will ever take a noble to court over the murder of a commoner.  The best you can expect in that scenario would be another noble asking for reparations for the damage of property.

[Shadow Fox]

Then it needs to change. Status quo is not acceptable anymore. I'm pretty sure that is why the mages got fed up and the elves couldn't take it any longer. The answer is not to say "all have to go back to the way it was".

I don't disagree but a change can't be forced it must happen gradually or it won't last past the one forcing it.

[Master Warder Z_]

You forgot due process.

 

That process doesn't exist in their world.

[The Baconer]

I don't disagree but a change can't be forced it must happen gradually or it won't last past the one forcing it.

 

Sure it can. You just have to force it the right way.

[Cobra's_back]

I don't disagree but a change can't be forced it must happen gradually or it won't last past the one forcing it.

 

Apparently, the method they were trying to use didn't work. If this could be ironed out, it needs to be done. Maybe laws are there and they only thing lacking is the enforcement of the laws. We should consider our jobs as someone who can make these groups come to an agreement. I would not support the way it was before. I see the Orlesians as a society that is crumbling. It needs to reform to survive. They won't get my support if they want to continue in this path.

[TK514]

Apparently, the method they were trying to use didn't work. If this could be ironed out, it needs to be done. Maybe laws are there and they only thing lacking is the enforcement of the laws. We should consider our jobs as someone who can make these groups come to an agreement. I would not support the way it was before. I see the Orlesians as a society that is crumbling. It needs to reform to survive. They won't get my support if they want to continue in this path.

What makes you say Orlesian society is crumbling?  Because you don't like how it works?

 

Edit:  I need to work on my phrasing.  This is probably one of those cases that comes across as snarky when I don't mean it to.  Do you think it is crumbling because certain aspects of it are ones you find distasteful, and can't imagine working for an extended period in a modern, enlightened country?

[Hellion Rex]

That process doesn't exist in their world.

I could see Par Vollen possibly having unbiased judgment, but otherwise, not so much.

[Cobra's_back]

That process doesn't exist in their world.

Apparently, it does. But I get it is class related. Isabela would have been hung as a slaver. She was not a noble and could not buy off the judge. There is a limited system. 

 

I would love the opportunity to expand this.

[Master Warder Z_]

I could see Par Vollen possibly having unbiased judgment, but otherwise, not so much.

 

Unbiased? Sure.

 

You lost your sword? Behead him.

 

You disobeyed orders? Behead him.

 

You stole something? Turn him into a mindless worker drone slave until death.

 

You want to leave our dogma military Junta? Behead him! And then kill every one he has every talked to!

[Master Warder Z_]

Apparently, it does. But I get it is class related. Isabela would have been hung as a slaver. She was not a noble and could not buy off the judge. There is a limited system. 

 

I would love the opportunity to expand this.

 

The courts of the day aren't courts in so far as how people today would view them.

 

Its all about Coin, Blood and Station.

 

Not "legalities" and "evidence".

 

So due process really doesn't exist, if you were a criminal you either rotted in a cell or were executed, if you were a noble accused, you reimbursed, If you were a soldier accused, you were executed. There isn't much of a Justice system in Thedas.

[Cobra's_back]

What makes you say Orlesian society is crumbling?  Because you don't like how it works?

 

No not at all. Look at the mages and now the elves. I wouldn't say it is functioning well. I believe people get fed up and they revolt. Their behavior makes sense to me. Doesn't it make sense to you? How many people want to be killed or raped for no reason? 

[Cobra's_back]

The courts of the day aren't courts in so far as how people today would view them.

 

Its all about Coin, Blood and Station.

 

Not "legalities" and "evidence".

 

So due process really doesn't exist, if you were a criminal you either rotted in a cell or were executed, if you were a noble accused, you reimbursed, If you were a soldier accused, you were executed. There isn't much of a Justice system in Thedas.

 

Could this be why the mages and elves have revolted? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The courts of the day aren't courts in so far as how people today would view them.

 

Its all about Coin, Blood and Station.

 

Not "legalities" and "evidence".

 

So due process really doesn't exist, if you were a criminal you either rotted in a cell or were executed, if you were a noble accused, you reimbursed, If you were a soldier accused, you were executed. There isn't much of a Justice system in Thedas.

"There is no evidence in our court system."

"Then how does the trial happen?"

"Simple. First I say what happened, then you say what happened. Then I decide who's right. That's why we call it Justice, because it is just us."

[MisterJB]

Could this be why the mages and elves have revolted? 

The same rules apply to human peasants; the mess with the elves and the mages are an entirely different issue alltogether.

[LobselVith8]

Except we have elves like Velanna and Tamlen who squander it all by acting stupid and an elf acting on her own to help people regardless of race will have greater impact then a Warden or soldier just doing his job.

Tamlen distrusts the two humans who were near the camp, which isn't surprising as it's outsiders who usually threaten the clans, while Velanna wanted vengeance against humans who tried to burn her clan as a means of keeping them away. Neither one squanders any good will.

Velanna and Tamlen are two elves who have grown accustomed to living in a world that can be violent against their people. To be fair to Velanna, she can change as a person, to the point where she can defend a human village on her own from a darkspawn horde.

I also don't think Briala is being stupid about this. Her goal is helping all the elves. Things haven't changed for them in centuries. And seeing how the heroic actions of elves didn't change things after the Fourth or the Fifth Blight, I see her actions as necessary.

You're ignoring that the means they used were very different. Andraste and Shartan also weren't cowards that hid on the sidelines aggravating a conflict while basking in their self righteousness they fought on the front lines with their army.

A combination of human and elven armies isn't comparable to one woman looking to help a disenfranchised race of people on her own, and building a network with other sympathizers along the way.

It's apples and oranges.

Also the ends Never Ever justify the means if those means involve the callous disregard of innocents for the "greater good" if you disagree then fine but I'll never agree with it.

I see helping an entire race of people be free as justified, but you and I can agree to disagree.

[Heimdall]

The courts of the day aren't courts in so far as how people today would view them.

Its all about Coin, Blood and Station.

Not "legalities" and "evidence".

So due process really doesn't exist, if you were a criminal you either rotted in a cell or were executed, if you were a noble accused, you reimbursed, If you were a soldier accused, you were executed. There isn't much of a Justice system in Thedas.

Well, if we're going by medieval standards, it varied. There were laws and there were consequences if you broke them. In early medieval north Western Europe, lower classes were expected to take their disputes to their local lord. If it was against their lord, tough luck, but if it was against another lord it could be taken as a personal offense. "Nobody gets to abuse my peasants but me!" I think there were laws passed as time went on forbidding lords killing or harshly beating their peasants. How much they were enforced, who knows.

Many "court" cases were settled by a monetary agreement, trial by combat, or an ordeal(I'll explain that one if you like). In latter years, merchants insisted on another system for their cases, those revolving around written contracts. Medieval legal tradition was complicated.

[Cobra's_back]

What makes you say Orlesian society is crumbling?  Because you don't like how it works?

 

Edit:  I need to work on my phrasing.  This is probably one of those cases that comes across as snarky when I don't mean it to.  Do you think it is crumbling because certain aspects of it are ones you find distasteful, and can't imagine working for an extended period in a modern, enlightened country?

 

I may have not remembered every detail of the books. I believe that humans can only take so much before they revolt. Several of these revolts going on the same time is not a functioning society. While these things are happening, it will be hard to distribute goods such as food and other items. Valuable assets will be lost because of violence and looting.

 

If I just get rid of the people rioting, i have not fixed root cause and it will happen again. I believe in the Stolen Throne Loghain did not win the war. The Orlesians King lost it due to his poor treatment of his subjects. At least towards the end people didn't care if they were going to be executed. They signed up against the Orlesians.

 

By the way you are not snarky. i just suck at writing.

[Cobra's_back]

The same rules apply to human peasants; the mess with the elves and the mages are an entirely different issue alltogether.

 

Did i get this wrong? Mages want freedom and elves want equal rights? For now it looks as if the peasants have it better than the elves. I haven't read anything about how the peasants are mistreated. All I know is that there are two groups that had enough.

[Dean_the_Young]

Did i get this wrong? Mages want freedom and elves want equal rights? For now it looks as if the peasants have it better than the elves. I haven't read anything about how the peasants are mistreated. All I know is that there are two groups that had enough.

What mages want isn't particularly clear, and I doubt it's clear to the mages either. The whole independence movement worked by putting mages in an extreme context that had more to do with survival than politiccal freedoms.

 

Elven equal rights is also a question- equal rights compared to who? Human peasants? Chavaliers? The Nobility? Celene? Orlais (and the rest of Thedas) is an extremely unequal society with a distinct lack of any concept of natural rights as such. Peasants, human and elven alike, are very much at the mercy of the nobility and those more powerful than them.

[The Elder King]

Did i get this wrong? Mages want freedom and elves want equal rights? For now it looks as if the peasants have it better than the elves. I haven't read anything about how the peasants are mistreated. All I know is that there are two groups that had enough.

Peasants might have a better fate than elves, but the difference between them and the nobles in Orlais are still immense. A chevalier can do whatever they want to human commoners and they can with elves. The lower classes are that the mercy of nobles regardless if they're humans or elves.
Thedas isn't a good place to live for the majority of people, regardless if they're humans, elves or dwarves.

[Cobra's_back]

What mages want isn't particularly clear, and I doubt it's clear to the mages either. The whole independence movement worked by putting mages in an extreme context that had more to do with survival than politiccal freedoms.

 

Elven equal rights is also a question- equal rights compared to who? Human peasants? Chavaliers? The Nobility? Celene? Orlais (and the rest of Thedas) is an extremely unequal society with a distinct lack of any concept of natural rights as such. Peasants, human and elven alike, are very much at the mercy of the nobility and those more powerful than them.

 

Thanks,

 

Now for the solution. I can't see the elves go back to the status quo. I can't support the system because I don't think it works. Will I have to kill every elf to allow this system to continue? The elves I think hit the point of no return.

 

This is similar to the people of Ferelden. They did it as well with the Orlesian King who was a tyrant. Even when he was executing them daily they signed up with the rebels.

 

They have nothing to lose in dying because they were already dying. So what is the solution? 

[Cobra's_back]

Peasants might have a better fate than elves, but the difference between them and the nobles in Orlais are still immense. A chevalier can do whatever they want to human commoners and they can with elves. The lower classes are that the mercy of nobles regardless if they're humans or elves.
Thedas isn't a good place to live for the majority of people, regardless if they're humans, elves or dwarves.

 

Thank you. Now when the people get fed up they revolt. It works if the nobles are reasonable. When they are tyrants, they may turn up dead.

[The Elder King]

Thanks,
 
Now for the solution. I can't see the elves go back to the status quo. I can't support the system because I don't think it works. Will I have to kill every elf to allow this system to continue? The elves I think hit the point of no return.
 
This is similar to the people of Ferelden. They did it as well with the Orlesian King who was a tyrant. Even when he was executing them daily they signed up with the rebels.
 
They have nothing to lose in dying because they were already dying. So what is the solution?

I don't actually think that the elves are are 'the point of no return' or won't return to the status quo. So far the elves aren't free, and their rebellion wasn't successful. Briala might change things, but the elves are still under Orlais' rule and with no better condition.
And you forgot that we're only talking about Orlais. In Nevarra, Ferelden, Antiva, Rivain and the Anderfels there aren't (as far as we know) elven uprisings.

[The Elder King]

Thank you. Now when the people get fed up they revolt. It works if the nobles are reasonable. When they are tyrants, they may turn up dead.

Revolts happen all the time in Thedas. The Alienages likely rebelled in the past. There were lots of slaves rebellions in Tevinter.
The fact that they revolt doesn't mean they'd necessarily succeed. Which is something people should keep in mind. It's still possible nothing is going to change for the elves in DAI. I don't think it'll be like this, and I hope there's room to improve the situations of elves, but the opposite is still possible.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thanks,

 

Now for the solution. I can't see the elves go back to the status quo. I can't support the system because I don't think it works. Will I have to kill every elf to allow this system to continue? The elves I think hit the point of no return.

 

 

Given the pretty successful history of non-genocidal crackdowns on uprisings (the vast majority of which fail, by the way), I suspect you're arguing suspect extremes. What, for example, is a system that 'works'? Countries regularly survive and carry through uprisings. And why would you need to kill every elf to allow the system to continue?

 

The elves reaching a point of no return is rather irrelevant. Uprisings aren't determined by the mindset of the people when they start. They are resolved by the mindset of the people at the end. What one considers intolerable at one point can become very tolerable, even preferable, to continuing the open conflict they previously thought was preferable to the status quo ante.

 

 

This is similar to the people of Ferelden. They did it as well with the Orlesian King who was a tyrant. Even when he was executing them daily they signed up with the rebels.

 

 

 

There are a couple of differences here, starting with the fact that the people of Ferelden considered themselves not a part of Orlaiswhile the elves of Orlais consider themselves a part of Orlais. Even Briala isn't a secessionist- the only Dalish secessionists to date have been forumites.
 

 

They have nothing to lose in dying because they were already dying. So what is the solution? 

 

 

Not rebel, pick the winning side of the Orlesian Civil War, and leverage that for further reforms.

 

There's a false equivalence in what you're arguing, and that is the presumption that they were going to die regardless. This is incorrect: the nature of their suffering is not even in all paths. They can die some in one path and die a lot more (and a lot more painfully) in another.

 

There is always more to lose. For the elves, that can be more death, more torture, more rape, more burning, and more devastation and bloodshed and racial acrimony. Oh, and a rollback and reversal of those previous reforms and concessions, and making future reforms more difficult.