1992 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

I don't actually think that the elves are are 'the point of no return' or won't return to the status quo. So far the elves aren't free, and their rebellion wasn't successful. Briala might change things, but the elves are still under Orlais' rule and with no better condition.
And you forgot that we're only talking about Orlais. In Nevarra, Ferelden, Antiva, Rivain and the Anderfels there aren't (as far as we know) elven uprisings.

 

 

In Fereldan, the lower classes are not treated anywhere near as badly as they are in Orlais.  Even city elves are considered to have some rights, otherwise the discovery that Loghain was selling them into slavery wouldn't have been such a scandal in the Landsmeet.  

 

As for the other counties, I not quite sure what they do differently when it comes to elves, but I'm pretty sure none of them have regions where elves are the majority.

[Cobra's_back]

I don't actually think that the elves are are 'the point of no return' or won't return to the status quo. So far the elves aren't free, and their rebellion wasn't successful. Briala might change things, but the elves are still under Orlais' rule and with no better condition.
And you forgot that we're only talking about Orlais. In Nevarra, Ferelden, Antiva, Rivain and the Anderfels there aren't (as far as we know) elven uprisings.

 

They seem pretty desperate to me. It was sad to even read it. I wouldn't blame her for trying to change it.

[Dean_the_Young]

They seem pretty desperate to me. It was sad to even read it. I wouldn't blame her for trying to change it.

 

And?

[The Baconer]

They have nothing to lose in dying because they were already dying. So what is the solution? 

 

Join the new faithful among the Inquisition, and cast down the sinful. Freedom will come by the Maker's hand.

[Cobra's_back]

And?

 

I would support her in an efforts to change it.

[The Elder King]

In Fereldan, the lower classes are not treated anywhere near as badly as they are in Orlais. Even city elves are considered to have some rights, otherwise the discovery that Loghain was selling them into slavery wouldn't have been such a scandal in the Landsmeet.

As for the other counties, I not quite sure what they do differently when it comes to elves, but I'm pretty sure none of them have regions where elves are the majority.

You're probably talking about another post of mine, since I talked about peasants being treated badly in another one. And I talked specifically about Orlesian Peasants. I never said that Peasants in other countries are treated in a similar way (though there are still injustices and nobles have a lot of power over them).
Orlais has more elves than other countries, true. How is that relevant to what I said about other Andrastian countries not having elven uprisings? My point was that the elves haven't reached the breaking point and that they're not in a state where they're able reject the statut quo, because: 1)they're not in the position to reject yet the status quo and 2) there are plently of elves that are second-class citizen in other countries and what happens in Orlais might not affect them.

[Dean_the_Young]

I would support her in an efforts to change it.

 

Ok. What sort of changes do you think she is aiming for, and what sorts of changes do you think rebellion can actually achieve?

 

I think it's worth noting that Briala isn't advocating secession or a independent city-elf state. Whatever rebellion she kicks up, at this point expect the city elves to be a part of Orlais when it's all over.

[TheJediSaint]

You're probably talking about another post of mine, since I talked about peasants being treated badly in another one. And I talked specifically about Orlesian Peasants. I never said that Peasants in other countries are treated in a similar way (though there are still injustices and nobles have a lot of power over them).
Orlais has more elves than other countries, true. How is that relevant to what I said about other Andrastian countries not having elven uprisings? My point was that the elves haven't reached the breaking point and that they're not in a state where they're able reject the statut quo, because: 1)they're not in the position to reject yet the status quo and 2) there are plently of elves that are second-class citizen in other countries and what happens in Orlais might not affect them.

 

I apologize if I misread your post, though I do think the population issue is relevant.  A rebellion is going to be much less appealing when the ruling population outnumbers you.

[Cobra's_back]

Ok. What sort of changes do you think she is aiming for, and what sorts of changes do you think rebellion can actually achieve?

 

I think it's worth noting that Briala isn't advocating secession or a independent city-elf state. Whatever rebellion she kicks up, at this point expect the city elves to be a part of Orlais when it's all over.

 

I don't have a problem with them being city elves. I believe that rules have to be changed for them to live there in peace. The current situation is not working.

 

 What sorts of changes do you think rebellion can actually achieve? Whatever it takes to have basic human rights. 

 

Edit: I'm not totally sure what she wants to do. I do believe something has to be done. I should correct this to say: I'll listen to her demands and help her get those demands implemented. 

[The Elder King]

I apologize if I misread your post, though I do think the population issue is relevant.  A rebellion is going to be much less appealing when the ruling population outnumbers you.

Well, the elves in the Dales might be the majority, but they're part of Orlais and the Orlesians armies can easily end their rebellion. The difference in number and equipment is great.
Though I agree that it's more likely that the elves would rebel in the Dales than in other countries, though as I said, my point (in response of ghostbuster) was that whatever happens in The Dales there are still lots of elves (even in other parts of Orlais) that will continue to remain second-class citizens, with the status quo still up.

[TheJediSaint]

Well, the elves in the Dales might be the majority, but they're part of Orlais and the Orlesians armies can easily end their rebellion. The difference in number and equipment is great.
Though I agree that it's more likely that the elves would rebel in the Dales than in other countries, though as I said, my point (in response of ghostbuster) was that whatever happens in The Dales there are still lots of elves (even in other parts of Orlais) that will continue to remain second-class citizens, with the status quo still up.

 

Well yeah, I doubt the rebellion will spread.  Especially since it would be hard for word of an elf rebellion to even get out of the Dales.  

[MisterJB]

I don't have a problem with them being city elves. I believe that rules have to be changed for them to live there in peace. The current situation is not working.

 

 What sorts of changes do you think rebellion can actually achieve? Whatever it takes to have basic human rights. 

 

Edit: I'm not totally sure what she wants to do. I do believe something has to be done. I should correct this to say: I'll listen to her demands and help her get those demands implemented. 

 

At the moment, Briala's plan is to use the Eluvians to prolongue the civil war and then, somehow (I don't think she has thought that far ahead yet) use this to "free her people from their bonds".

If she plans for the orlesian elves to remain orlesian, then she is making a huge mistake. Rights are only so if others respect them; by forcefully finding a more appetizing niche within orlesian society for the elves through a civil conflict reaping human lives, she is assuring that the humans will despise the elves even more by the end of it all. Even if, somehow, she manages to place the nation at a situation where the humans will have no choice but to accept elven demands, thenthree futures come to mind:

 

1-Briala will have to continuously work in order to ensure the humans never regain their previous power for fear of them visiting revenge upon the elves. Therefore, effectively, it becomes the elves trying to keep the humans down.

 

2-The humans regain their former power and take their revenge on the elven population.

 

3-Briala's efforts to weaken Orlais suceed so well that Nevarra or Tevinter decide to pay a visit.

 

And if her goals are to create an independent elven state, then I see no way for it to survive surrounded by hostile human neighbours.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't have a problem with them being city elves. I believe that rules have to be changed for them to live there in peace. The current situation is not working.

 

 

Again, by what standard? History will go on. Orlais will go on. The elves will go on. Regardless of whether the elves get rights, don't get rights, succeede, are crushed, or any combination of the four, Orlais will carry on.

 

 

 

 What sorts of changes do you think rebellion can actually achieve? Whatever it takes to have basic human rights. 

 

 

Historically, violent revolution is a loser's option for getting minority rights. Integration into society is what gets equal rights. Fighting against society is antithetical to that integration- once the fighting stop, all the bad blood you've worked up is still there no matter what the peace terms are.
 

 

Edit: I'm not totally sure what she wants to do. I do believe something has to be done. I should correct this to say: I'll listen to her demands and help her get those demands implemented. 

 

 

If her actions are counterproductive to her demands, would you oppose her?

[Dean_the_Young]

At the moment, Briala's plan is to use the Eluvians to prolongue the civil war and then, somehow (I don't think she has thought that far ahead yet) use this to "free her people from their bonds".

If she plans for the orlesian elves to remain orlesian, then she is making a huge mistake. Rights are only so if others respect them; by forcefully finding a more appetizing niche within orlesian society for the elves through a civil conflict reaping human lives, she is assuring that the humans will despise the elves even more by the end of it all. Even if, somehow, she manages to place the nation at a situation where the humans will have no choice but to accept elven demands, then there can be only three futures:

 

1-Briala will have to continuously work in order to ensure the humans never regain their previous power for fear of them visiting revenge upon the elves. Therefore, effectively, it becomes the elves trying to keep the humans down.

 

2-The humans regain their former power and take their revenge on the elven population.

 

3-Briala's efforts to weaken Orlais suceed so well that Nevarra or Tevinter decide to pay a visit.

 

And if her goals are to create an independent elven state, then I see no way for it to survive surrounded by hostile human neighbours.

 

Oh, there are more options than that. Few that work out well for the city elves, mind you, but there are more options.

[Shadow Fox]

At the moment, Briala's plan is to use the Eluvians to prolongue the civil war and then, somehow (I don't think she has thought that far ahead yet) use this to "free her people from their bonds".

If she plans for the orlesian elves to remain orlesian, then she is making a huge mistake. Rights are only so if others respect them; by forcefully finding a more appetizing niche within orlesian society for the elves through a civil conflict reaping human lives, she is assuring that the humans will despise the elves even more by the end of it all. Even if, somehow, she manages to place the nation at a situation where the humans will have no choice but to accept elven demands, thenthree futures come to mind:

 

1-Briala will have to continuously work in order to ensure the humans never regain their previous power for fear of them visiting revenge upon the elves. Therefore, effectively, it becomes the elves trying to keep the humans down.

 

2-The humans regain their former power and take their revenge on the elven population.

 

3-Briala's efforts to weaken Orlais suceed so well that Nevarra or Tevinter decide to pay a visit.

 

And if her goals are to create an independent elven state, then I see no way for it to survive surrounded by hostile human neighbours.

This is what I've argued before thanks JB.

[MisterJB]

The elves should seriously stop trying to outmage the mages without actual magic. I suspect it won't end up well for them.

[Heimdall]

Yeah... I really just don't see any likely way Briala can institute a major change without it backfiring on the elves and Orlais in a big way.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yeah... I really just don't see any likely way Briala can institute a major change without it backfiring on the elves and Orlais in a big way.

This is Dragon Age my friend everything backfires.

 

Want to prevent a disaster? You unleash a horror

Want to aid the poor? You cause a worse torment

Want to open a lemonade stand? You open a portal to the Fade that pulls in your whole city.

 

It is a setting that really makes it seem the universe is opposed to progress.

[TheJediSaint]

 

Want to open a lemonade stand? You open a portal to the Fade that pulls in your whole city.

 

 

 

Spoiler alert:  The Veil tear was Oghren's attempt at opening a microbrewery.

[Hellion Rex]

The elves should seriously stop trying to outmage the mages without actual magic. I suspect it won't end up well for them.

Heaven help us if the city elves are hiding apostates among their numbers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Heaven help us if the city elves are hiding apostates among their numbers.

What will they do, release the other Forbidden One?

[AresKeith]

What will they do, release the other Forbidden One?

 

Maybe

[Cobra's_back]

Again, by what standard? History will go on. Orlais will go on. The elves will go on. Regardless of whether the elves get rights, don't get rights, succeede, are crushed, or any combination of the four, Orlais will carry on.

 

 

 

Historically, violent revolution is a loser's option for getting minority rights. Integration into society is what gets equal rights. Fighting against society is antithetical to that integration- once the fighting stop, all the bad blood you've worked up is still there no matter what the peace terms are.
 

 

If her actions are counterproductive to her demands, would you oppose her?

 

And yet revolutions still occur. I'm not sure her's will fail. We don't even know what she is really planning. If the plan has a chance, I'll help her.

[Shadow Fox]

What will they do, release the other Forbidden One?

...*looks at Merril* She did it!

[Dean_the_Young]

And yet revolutions still occur. I'm not sure her's will fail. We don't even know what she is really planning. If the plan has a chance, I'll help her.

Revolutions still occur- but so what? Revolts without smart goals aren't smart revolts to back: they tend to be courting disaster from the start, with poorly defined goals and means to reach them.

 

Right now you are promising support to someone who has presented no plan and is taking actions counter-productive to staged goals of racial integration with no clear relationship between prolonging the civil war and improving the lot of the elves in Orlais.