1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@Jedi:
Actually, we do NOT know that the elven gods exist. That's why I suggested that Felassan might be *symbolically* connected to Fen'Harel, as in representing themes which also appear in elven mythology.

[Wolfen09]

i would have liked to see felassan again, he seemed like he didnt care much for his own people or the humans... which is why i liked him....  i could see how he might represent fen harel. 

[Sir JK]

My thought isn't the elves will be exactly a third side. They'll be willing to let Celene and Gaspard bleed each other.  But in the meantime they're going to grab as much land and power as they can hold onto.  That way, by the time one or the other ends up on top, they will be either too weak to stop the elves from creating their own homeland (or at the least become a semiautonomous province), or the elves will be in a superior bargaining position for more rights within the empre.

 

Yes... let's humiliate the formost military power in southern Thedas. There's no way that'll have repercussions down the line.

 

Seriously... Briala's smarter than that. She knows Celene and she knows Gaspard. They'd never tolerate something like that. And it's going to take centuries before the city elves got something to rival the Chevaliers. Orlais will recover their strength faster than the elves can build theirs.

 

I can see that being the case, and as the reason why the Dales is cited as a separate location, rather than as part of Orlais.

 

 

Agreed. I don't see the developers revealing that any of the deities are real at this point in time.

 

I think they mentioned the Dales separedly because it'd catch our ear (and it did). Not that it's actually separate from Orlais.

 

Celene's in Halamshiral for crying out loud.

 

Briala will IMO be part of the Inquisition because she's literally your fast travel mechanism. That's how Bioware can have locales and allow us to go from one part of Orlais to Ferelden.

 

Actually if there's one major character in TME that I would guess wouldn't show it's actually Briala.

 

Start running lol

 

Nah... not against a somniari. Won't help.

 

"Don't fall asleep" is the proper warning . Also... much more cruel.

[LobselVith8]

Yes... let's humiliate the foremost military power in southern Thedas. There's no way that'll have repercussions down the line.

 

Seriously... Briala's smarter than that. She knows Celene and she knows Gaspard. They'd never tolerate something like that. And it's going to take centuries before the city elves got something to rival the Chevaliers. Orlais will recover their strength faster than the elves can build theirs.

 

You think the Inquisitor will be limited to working with one of the contenders for the throne?

 

I think they mentioned the Dales separately because it'd catch our ear (and it did). Not that it's actually separate from Orlais.

 

Celene's in Halamshiral for crying out loud.

 

I wasn't trying to imply it separated from Orlais, but rather my agreement that it would have it's own story content (separate from the Orlesian plots, although the Bioware Blog does read that the Orlesian civil war bleeds over into the Dales).

 

Actually if there's one major character in TME that I would guess wouldn't show it's actually Briala.

 

Really? I figured Briala making an appearance would make the most sense, given how TME concluded.

 

Nah... not against a somniari. Won't help.

 

"Don't fall asleep" is the proper warning . Also... much more cruel.

 

Yes... 

[The Elder King]

I do think that we'll have to choose between Gaspard and Celene. There might be a plot around Briala, but I don't think we can let the OCW continue in DAI.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

@Jedi:
Actually, we do NOT know that the elven gods exist. That's why I suggested that Felassan might be *symbolically* connected to Fen'Harel, as in representing themes which also appear in elven mythology.

 

No we don't, but the game can still include the Dread Wolf while still keeping the truth of the whole of elven mythology ambiguous, like the Old Gods or the Urn of Sacred Ashes. He could be a divine being or he could be a powerful fade entity or something. I think the big bad of the game is going to be someone big and unique (like Flemeth) I doubt that it would be something as "normal" as symbolic followers of Fen'Harel.

[Hellion Rex]

"Don't fall asleep" is the proper warning . Also... much more cruel.

Don't give him any ideas!

[efd731]

Don't give him any ideas!

Saw that, all I could think was "don't blink"

[Sir JK]

You think the Inquisitor will be limited to working with one of the contenders for the throne?

 

Sort of. I do not think the inquisitor will succeed without at least one powerful ally.

 

But in the post in question I mostly addressed any elven free nation. That nation will rise on Orlais' expense. We've never seen that end well. Ever. And Orlais is not that dependant on elves that it cannot recover from losing them.

 

I wasn't trying to imply it separated from Orlais, but rather my agreement that it would have it's own story content (separate from the Orlesian plots, although the Bioware Blog does read that the Orlesian civil war bleeds over into the Dales).

 

Fair enough. I think them mentioning the Dales separedly carried no further meaning than effective marketing. I'm not even sure the dalish plot takes place there (though it probably would).

 

Really? I figured Briala making an appearance would make the most sense, given how TME concluded.

 

Sure, but in a sense her story is also the most contained. Gaspard and Celene is set up to begin immediately. Michel and Ishmael screams plotline.

 

Briala... I can see her factoring in. But her plot is the easiest to spin as a long term one. She's also, strictly speaking, the one easiest not to mention. Though Michel is easy never to mention again either.

So it could go either way. Briala's a plot-thread to be sure. But one that can be put on a backburner. And in a game about exploration I don't think Eluvian's serve a desired need.

 

Unless of course Briala and the Eluvians are main plot material... but that just makes me worry for Briala... and I'd like to see Celene prove herself to Briala and win her back.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You think the Inquisitor will be limited to working with one of the contenders for the throne?

Yes, for two reasons.

 

1) Part of the Inquisitor's job is to stop the conflicts("save the world from itself") and being in Orlais during the Orlesian Civil War definitely puts that high on the list.

 

2) There won't be that many options simply because this isn't the last game, so Bioware has to limit some things for continuity.

[Dean_the_Young]

While I agree with you. I actually have the opposite opinion of which side will get more what they want.  There is a difference between what the CEs of Orlais want and what the forum members of this forum want.  I completely got the vibe that the CEs wanted to be Orlesian, but just wanted their rights.  I think the change the CEs are going for is far more achievable then the change that the mages are striving for.  The idea of equality for elves isn't a big threat to the status quo all in all, especially when you account for the nobles that have been educated at the univeristy.  Independent free mages is a threat to the status qou.

 

It's funny, but I feel the emphasis is switched: I pick the difference between what the mages want and what the forumites want, and see the city elf rebellion (that rebellion and perpetuating a civil war will mean civil rights... somehow) as less plausible than the 'moderate' mage position of wanting a relaxation of Templar crackdowns and tensions. I do think actual mage independence is less likely than elven civil rights, but I suspect the mages will be more willing and able to settle for less (a return to the pre-tension status quo) than the elves are aiming for (which is a significant social change to the status quo).

 

I suppose it comes down to what one considers the war goals of the groups to actually be. Which is definitely a point at which in-universe factions and forumite faction fans often diverge on.

[Dean_the_Young]

Regarding Celene, she's caught in mechanisms of the Game she can't completely escape from. I don't think she can reasonably be expected to ignore them at her peril and lose her throne. The flaw lies in the system. I wonder if the story will leave any opportunity to undermine the mechanisms of the Game on a bigger scale.

 

I wonder. I doubt it, but I wonder.

 

If I had to wager, though, I'd say Gaspard would be a better candidate for rising above the game than Celene. They're both major players, but at the very least, Gaspard has passed on options that would have given him an advantage on the basis of honor. I'm not sure Celene has matched it.
 

[Wolfen09]

i dont see many of the mages settling for a compromise that goes back to what they had...  the templars and chantry wont let that happen, once you break the dam, you cant stop the flood....  only way to not cause a flood is to have nothing for the dam to dam up

[wcholcombe]

It's funny, but I feel the emphasis is switched: I pick the difference between what the mages want and what the forumites want, and see the city elf rebellion (that rebellion and perpetuating a civil war will mean civil rights... somehow) as less plausible than the 'moderate' mage position of wanting a relaxation of Templar crackdowns and tensions. I do think actual mage independence is less likely than elven civil rights, but I suspect the mages will be more willing and able to settle for less (a return to the pre-tension status quo) than the elves are aiming for (which is a significant social change to the status quo).

I suppose it comes down to what one considers the war goals of the groups to actually be. Which is definitely a point at which in-universe factions and forumite faction fans often diverge on.

Lol and I see the opposite. The CEs aren't wanting independence in MTE just rights and fair treatment. I don't think Fiona or Adrian will be looking for minor concessions.

[Dean_the_Young]

i dont see many of the mages settling for a compromise that goes back to what they had...  the templars and chantry wont let that happen, once you break the dam, you cant stop the flood....  only way to not cause a flood is to have nothing for the dam to dam up

 

Of course, floods are also transitory things. After a flood, you can rebuild the dam. The land below is wetter than it would otherwise have been, and the bodies and ruined lives will need to be cleaned up, but the flood passes and the pre-flood returns.

 

Not, mind you, that the temporary nature of dams is in and of itself a persuasive reason not to do them. Dams serve many valuable and important functions... including curbing and reducing flooding.

 

All dams, like all rivers, are temporary things in a geological time scale. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lol and I see the opposite. The CEs aren't wanting independence in MTE just rights and fair treatment. I don't think Fiona or Adrian will be looking for minor concessions.

 

No, but then I doubt they will be the leaders we will actually make deals with.

 

Well, Fiona maybe, but I suspect her desires and her ability to achieve them will have a significant gap.

 

 

Mind you, Briala as the leader of the city elves is a bit unstable as well. Briala's claim to leadership comes from her toys, not her reputation or accepted legitimacy.

[azarhal]

Mind you, Briala as the leader of the city elves is a bit unstable as well. Briala's claim to leadership comes from her toys, not her reputation or accepted legitimacy.

 

Actually, do the Orlesian city elves know they have a leader?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Briala's not really a leader of the city elves. She's in charge of a network of Eluvians and has the goal of helping and freeing them, but she's not actually in charge of anyone except anyone who wants to work for her. The Orlesian City Elf leaders presumably are their cities' Hahrens.

[TK514]

Unless of course Briala and the Eluvians are main plot material... but that just makes me worry for Briala... and I'd like to see Celene prove herself to Briala and win her back.

 

One would think "You murdered my parents for political gain" would be a difficult hurdle to overcome in a relationship.

[Dean_the_Young]

One would think "You murdered my parents for political gain" would be a difficult hurdle to overcome in a relationship.

 

That, and 'You will backpedal on promises and reforms in the name of political expedience.' Which was more of the immediate cause of breakup than the parent thing.

 

Considering that social reform isn't something you can make an irreversible reality, Celene's ability to promise reforms (already in doubt) is going to be challenged by Celene's willingness to actually enforce them.

 

 

In some respects, I'd put more faith in Gaspard to honor an agreement with elves he doesn't particularly care about than I would put in Celene's ability to honor an agreement she is more inclined towards.

[yakaman91]

The elves aren't really a third side in the war in the same way the other two are. Briala's plan was about using her underground network to help elves and make sure the the humans keep fighting. But even if she brings in Dalish clans to help her, she doesn't really have an army of their own strong enough to challenge either side directly. However, she and Celene have opposite and incompatible goals. They cannot exactly reconcile unless of of them is defeated or surrenders.

 

Felassan's story about Andruil, Fen'harel, and the other (?) suggests otherwise.  To paraphrase, Fen'harel (Briala's city elves) pits the Andruil (Celene) against the other (Gaspard) to weaken both.  This IMO suggests that the City Elves are a third party in the scrum, just not an initial power player.

 

Briala's initial goal may simply be to secure freedom for the Elves, perhaps even founding of a new homeland.  Follow that through though, and you realize the elves will never be allowed to be free as long as the status quo is preserved.  Briala's break from Celene comes most from Celene's fundamental inability to give Briala what she wanted - freedom for elves.  No matter her stated intentions, Celene could only deliver whatever freedom was possible within the "humans in charge" context.  Under Celene, the elves would only be as free as Celene could stand.

 

Felassan really drove this home by asking "who will scrub the floors?"....no matter the empire, someone has to scrub the floors.  As long as the empire is human, the elves will scrub the floors, even if their existence otherwise improves.  Briala wants freedom (equality) for the elves and the only way to that is to make someone else scrub the floors.

 

There is no other endgame - Briala will seek to dominate Orlais and greater Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Felassan's story about Andruil, Fen'harel, and the other (?) suggests otherwise.  To paraphrase, Fen'harel (Briala's city elves) pits the Andruil (Celene) against the other (Gaspard) to weaken both.  This IMO suggests that the City Elves are a third party in the scrum, just not an initial power player.

 

That is pretty much what I meant. Her agenda makes her enemies of both. However her strategy means she can't actually fight them in the field for the most part. Her plan requires the other two to do their fighting for her.

 

Although I'm pretty sure she knows she can't actually subjugate humanity. That's unrealistic. She wants freedom for the elves, and hopes they can deal with whatever that entails themselves.

 

In the Fen'Harel metaphor, he escaped. He didn't destroy the other two gods. The Elves goals have to be making the best with what they can do.

[LobselVith8]

Actually, do the Orlesian city elves know they have a leader?

Briala acquired control of the Eluvians at the conclusion of TME, so she may have established herself by the time Inquisition takes place.

[Statare]

...

(1) There will apparently be three, not two factions in the Orlesian civil war: Gaspard's faction, Celene's faction and Briala's elves.

...

(4) While the elven Inquisitor will be Dalish, the Dalish as a faction will play a lesser part in the story compared to the city elves. It appears plausible that no Inquisitor background will strongly predispose players towards a specific faction.

(5) Felassan has some connection to Fen'Harel. It is currently unclear if this connection is symbolic only, making him some kind of priest-analogue, or if there really exists an entity of that name. It appears possible that lore of the elven pantheon will come into play at some point, maybe magic associated with it as well. This may be a part of a global effect hinted at by Sandal's statement that the magic will come back.

 

...
 

 

1) This may not be the case. This has to do with what we don't know about the Eluvians and Felassan's master. I'll get to it.

 

4) I disagree. I think the Dalish are going to be incredibly important. If you consider Felassan's associations with Fen'Harel, and Fen'Harel being considered an adversary of the Dalish, especially the Keepers, Felassan could have been playing Briala to keep the Eluvians out of the hands of the Dalish, who would know more about the dangers of Fen'Harel than Briala. In fact, I think Briala's general ignorance about Elven culture in the novel is important. 

 

The very structure of the novel is about misinformation, masks, and ulterior motives. It seems important to me to remember that Felassan is Briala's only real experience with the Dalish, and that Felassan could have been manipulating her for his master. Also, Felassan had met the Dalish clan previously, and was supposed to be relaying Briala's activities in the Orlesian court to help the Elves/Dalish to the Dalish, but it appears Felassan did not try very hard, if even at all. It is also apparent that Felassan had met Imsael prior to the events of the book, and Imsael could have been another element of Felassan's/his master's plot to get the Eluvians out of Dalish hands (that's why the Dalish summoned/bound Imsael, to get the Eluvians to work). It is also important to remember that Felassan encouraged Briala to attack the Dalish and to not include the Dalish in her plans. This could be because he generally believed them incapable of cooperating with the City Elves, or, as it seems to me, was another effort of isolating Briala and the control of the Eluvians from the Dalish. Felassan was the master of the Game, in my opinion, not Briala.

 

Add to this the Elven Inquisitor will be Dalish, and the Dalish will be in the game, I think it is likely they knew more about what was going on than Briala, who most likely is playing with forces she does not understand, and may fall prey to Felassan's master, so back to point 1) Briala's plan may not have ever happened, the forces she raised may be dead, or they could become forces of the Big Baddy, if Felassan's master was the Big Baddy of DA:I.

 

5) It's possible. I think Felassan's association with Fen'Harel, the betrayer of the Elven Gods, is important. It emphasizes my theory that Briala and the Dalish are analogous to the Forgotten Ones and the Elven Gods, and were betrayed for Felassan/Fen'Harel's goals. I doubt the whole Elven Pantheon will be involved, and I doubt Fen'Harel himself will appear or be the Big Baddy, but it is possible.

[azarhal]

Briala acquired control of the Eluvians at the conclusion of TME, so she may have established herself by the time Inquisition takes place.

 

Or the others elves laughter at her...