1992 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Depends on how you weigh it. More elves are likely to die in the course of this uprising than dwarves died on Branka's expedition. Not as horrifically, of course, but it would be pretty easy to argue that the horrific demise of a few doesn't outweigh the more mundane killings of many. 

 

Saying that it's more horrific of a demise clouds the issue a great deal. First, Branka did it to her own people - they weren't collateral damage (which at least some of the harm to the elves has been, aside from elves who would willingly sign up to die for her cause). So there's a difference in intent, because the end goal for Branka was that her people would turn into darkspawn so she could launch them at the Anvil. Brialia does not actually want elves to die. Second, the kind of horror she inflicted on her people without their consent was at about the highest level of body horror and suffering imaginable in Thedas. Literally the worst forms of abuse that Orlesians could inflict on CEs, the darkspawn did worse. Edit: If Orlesians went door to door, sexually assaulting and murdering, on an individual scale that would still be less bad. 

 

Beyond that, I don't think there's much weight to the argument that the number of deaths - in a political uprising - really outweighs the intentional sacrifice, mutilation and abomination-rape that happened in the Deep Roads. But let's say I bite. If it's pretty to argue it, then how would you argue that the two types of death are morally equivalent? 

[The Elder King]

Briala and Branka are not that different. They both do morally questionable actions for the good of their people.  I supose it comes down to just how far you think someone should go and how much you care about the people in question.

If this is about the previous discussion, it was about Jarvia, not Briala, and was more about the possibility on a non-human siding with his/her kind.

[LobselVith8]

Everyone here is aware that celene and gaspard are crap, the only issue is whether briala is on the same level.

I don't get that impression at all. Some people single out Briala because of her cause to help the elves. I acknowledge that Celene, Gaspard, and Celene are all flawed, but they are all doing what they think is right.

And I said that self-insert thing because I thought it was accurate, not due to misplaced internet rage. If Xil takes offense then I will retract it as apologize(while believing it to still be accurate)

Wanting to support a character with goals that align with your protagonist's motives doesn't mean that the character is a "self insert" for the person.

[efd731]

I don't get that impression at all. Some people single out Briala because of her cause to help the elves. I acknowledge that Celene, Gaspard, and Celene are all flawed, but they are all doing what they think is right.


Wanting to support a character with goals that align with your protagonist's motives doesn't mean that the character is a "self insert" for the person.

I'm taking this further ot, but those aren't we protags motives.....they are Xil's

[Dean_the_Young]

Saying that it's more horrific of a demise clouds the issue a great deal. First, Branka did it to her own people - they weren't collateral damage (which at least some of the harm to the elves has been, aside from elves who would willingly sign up to die for her cause). So there's a difference in intent, because the end goal for Branka was that her people would turn into darkspawn so she could launch them at the Anvil. Brialia does not actually want elves to die. Second, the kind of horror she inflicted on her people without their consent was at about the highest level of body horror and suffering imaginable in Thedas. Literally the worst forms of abuse that Orlesians could inflict on CEs, the darkspawn did worse. 

 

Beyond that, I don't think there's much weight to the argument that the number of deaths - in a political uprising - really outweighs the intentional sacrifice, mutilation and abomination-rape that happened in the Deep Roads. But let's say I bite. If it's pretty to argue it, then how would you argue that the two types of death are morally equivalent? 

 

 

By believing all people are equal. Or at least by virtue of death being the great equalizer. Dead is dead- short of circumstances in which the nature of a death has an effect (and, in a fantasy setting like Thedas, it very well can), once you're dead not much else about them matters. The horror or honor or anything else surrounding that death ceases to matter as a cost born by the person, because death trumps everything else. We don't categorize people by ' seven maimed and dead', or 'three people happy and dead', or 'one dead of shame.' We simply say they're dead.

 

Is torturing someone to death more horrific than a plane crash? Certainly- but in terms of the greater good, most would agree that if you could only prevent one, it would be entirely moral to save the plane. This sort of logic only works by resting on the assumption that (a) death outweighs other concerns, and ( the lives are equivalent.

 

Even if we agree on morally unequivalent deaths, or even discard the common moral consideration that life outweighs other crimes and concerns (ie, that what you do to people while they are alive is more important than killing them), the equivalence between un-equivalent deaths can be determined by sheer numbers. How many elven lives in rebellion are worth one brood mother death?

 

Pick your number, any number you want. You can even change the value depending on whether that elven rebellion is successful or not: after all, is the life of someone who dies in a successful rebellion worth as much as the life of someone who dies in a failed one? Just remember, though- once the rebellion deaths surpass that equivalent cost of Branka, the consequences of Brialia's actions can be called worse.

 

 

 

 

Post-post disclaimer: the above is an argument from a position. It should not be confused for my own views.

[Heimdall]

I don't get that impression at all. Some people single out Briala because of her cause to help the elves.

Not her cause, the way she's decided to achieve it.

[LobselVith8]

I'm taking this further ot, but those aren't we protags motives.....they are Xil's

It's not unprecedented for the protagonist to have goals outside of the main crisis. Despite the Fifth Blight, The Warden could help the Mages Collective, and there were opportunities to help the elves, like freeing Solas from imprisonment. Despite being a clandestine apostate, Hawke could help the mage underground, and even kill Kelder, a serial killer of elven children, in direct violation of Magistrate Vanard's orders. I don't think it's implausible that helping the elves may be an option.

[efd731]

Not her cause, the way she's decided to achieve it.

"That's a bingo!"(inglorious bastards) me, Aesir and mercury elf haven't said that we disagree with her goals, only her (purported) actions/methods. We've been clarifying that (or attempting to) over the past few pages.
Edit: lob no one is saying helping the elves shouldn't be an option, we are saying that it would be preferred (for some of us) if there were ways to do so outside if doing whatever briala wants.(as inferred by the book, no one actually knows what they shall be in the game)
P.S. You skipped completely over the Xil's motives bit.

[AresKeith]

As opposed to the people who want Briala to be a villain and refuse to budge on the slightest issue, you mean?

 

Um no, people are saying that what she's doing could be against what the Inquisition is trying to do

 

Don't know why you always jump to conclusions like that

[efd731]

Um no, people are saying that what she's doing could be against what the Inquisition is trying to do

Don't know why you always jump to conclusions like that

because then There wouldn't be an argument, and this thread would slowly sink into anonymity. All anyone disagreeing with lob and Xil has said is "briala sucks equally as much as gaspard and celene" and "her methods suck".

[LobselVith8]

Um no, people are saying that what she's doing could be against what the Inquisition is trying to do
 
Don't know why you always jump to conclusions like that

I addressed Mercury's claim that Briala would most likely be a villain.

Also, the Inquisitor (via the player) decides what the Inquisition is trying to do.

[efd731]

I addressed Mercury's claim that Briala would most likely be a villain.

Also, the Inquisitor (via the player) decides what the Inquisition is trying to do.

Feel like I'm getting skipped over here but the inquisitor is trying to close fade tears and stop chaos. And like I've said 4 times now, briala appears to be in the way of that. That's all there is to the argument. You think helping briala is a good thing. We think briala is hindering the inquisition. /thread

[AresKeith]

I addressed Mercury's claim that Briala would most likely be a villain.

Also, the Inquisitor (via the player) decides what the Inquisition is trying to do.

 

The Inquisitor's overall job is to stop the Veil Tears how you do things is up to the player, that means you need to gain allies which you'll have to gain by fixing their problems (i.e OCW, etc)

 

That means you'll most likely have to play ball with either Celene or Gaspard, Briala could very well play a part also but you'll probably still have to work with either the other two also

 

So Briala's plan is to prolong the war which at this moment stands against the Inquisition, so yes that does give Briala the possibility of being one. But that doesn't make her a default villain like you assuming people to make her out to be

[Cobra's_back]

Saying that it's more horrific of a demise clouds the issue a great deal. First, Branka did it to her own people - they weren't collateral damage (which at least some of the harm to the elves has been, aside from elves who would willingly sign up to die for her cause). So there's a difference in intent, because the end goal for Branka was that her people would turn into darkspawn so she could launch them at the Anvil. Brialia does not actually want elves to die. Second, the kind of horror she inflicted on her people without their consent was at about the highest level of body horror and suffering imaginable in Thedas. Literally the worst forms of abuse that Orlesians could inflict on CEs, the darkspawn did worse. Edit: If Orlesians went door to door, sexually assaulting and murdering, on an individual scale that would still be less bad. 

 

Beyond that, I don't think there's much weight to the argument that the number of deaths - in a political uprising - really outweighs the intentional sacrifice, mutilation and abomination-rape that happened in the Deep Roads. But let's say I bite. If it's pretty to argue it, then how would you argue that the two types of death are morally equivalent? 

 

Totally agree and well said. 

 

If we have three options to side with I'm with Brialia.

[LobselVith8]

Feel like I'm getting skipped over here but the inquisitor is trying to close fade tears and stop chaos. And like I've said 4 times now, briala appears to be in the way of that. That's all there is to the argument. You think helping briala is a good thing. We think briala is hindering the inquisition. /thread

Briala wanting to help the elves is as much in the way as Celene and Gaspard waging a civil war.

Also, the developers have continually stressed that the player will shape the Inquisition; earlier, Ghost provided an excerpt showing that the player may have the opportunity to participate in the fighting, rather than end it. I'm not seeing anything to show that Briala will be a default villain like Mercury suggested.

[Cobra's_back]

The Inquisitor's overall job is to stop the Veil Tears how you do things is up to the player, that means you need to gain allies which you'll have to gain by fixing their problems (i.e OCW, etc)

 

That means you'll most likely have to play ball with either Celene or Gaspard, Briala could very well play a part also but you'll probably still have to work with either the other two also

 

So Briala's plan is to prolong the war which at this moment stands against the Inquisition, so yes that does give Briala the possibility of being one. But that doesn't make her a default villain like you assuming people to make her out to be

 

I'm not sure of this. You should wait for the game to come out. If she has found a way to get all clans behind her then she may be option C. If not then hopefully it will be a conditional situation siding with Celene giving Briala what she wants. 

[efd731]

Argh.....lob,Mercury never said briala would be a default villain/antagonist. Just that she could be/seems likely. Literally all we know is she has a stated desire to drag out a bloody civil war, in order to somehow improve the lot of elves.

[Cobra's_back]

Not her cause, the way she's decided to achieve it.

 

Could it be just one sentence and not her whole plan? Seriously if that is all they give her then she is not very bright. She may be planning more and she may unite all the clans which would make sense.

[AresKeith]

I'm not sure of this. You should wait for the game to come out. If she has found a way to get all clans behind her then she may be option C. If not then hopefully it will be a conditional situation siding with Celene giving Briala what she wants. 

 

I'm all for waiting till the game comes out, but I doubt that she may be an option C like that because of how big the change would be the game state

[efd731]

Could it be just one sentence and not her whole plan? Seriously if that is all they give her then she is not very bright. She may be planning more and she may unite all the clans which would make sense.

And even if she does, where to after that? Seize a part of Orlais? Both sides would crack down on her. Attempt to claim the dales? While they're a zombie and demon ridden wasteland where the entire military might of Orlais happens to be situated? Maybe she can market them as a force to be used in conjunction with celene/gaspard's armies, am bargain for rights that way. Literally this whole arguement is that we don't see briala as helpful(to Orlais, the inquisition, or the elves). She wants to help, but we see her actions so far(and her purported methods) as making the elves seem antagonistic. Most of us arguing want to see the elves treated better, we just think she's gonna screw the pooch and the backlash will be not worth it.

[LobselVith8]

The Inquisitor's overall job is to stop the Veil Tears how you do things is up to the player, that means you need to gain allies which you'll have to gain by fixing their problems (i.e OCW, etc)
 
That means you'll most likely have to play ball with either Celene or Gaspard, Briala could very well play a part also but you'll probably still have to work with either the other two also

Or Briala may be the dark horse candidate to help the elves, rather than helping the two humans fighting over who will sit on the throne. Who knows for sure. I certainly don't think it's implausible when the elven Inquisitor may have no incentive to save the Orlesian Empire.
 

So Briala's plan is to prolong the war which at this moment stands against the Inquisition, so yes that does give Briala the possibility of being one. But that doesn't make her a default villain like you assuming people to make her out to be

You mean how Mercury suggested a few pages earlier, when she said we would "most likely have to off her."

[Cobra's_back]

Feel like I'm getting skipped over here but the inquisitor is trying to close fade tears and stop chaos. And like I've said 4 times now, briala appears to be in the way of that. That's all there is to the argument. You think helping briala is a good thing. We think briala is hindering the inquisition. /thread

 

This is paart of the plot description for DA3 wiki:

 

"BioWare mentioned that the main plot will be "saving the world from itself." The plot will involve an all out war between mages and templars, the foundations of which comprise the main plot of Dragon Age II. Along with the larger size of the game map, the player will be able to travel to countries such as Tevinter to calm or encourage the fighting."

 

We can't say for sure if she will go against the player. The player may calm or encourage the fighting. It looks as if we have more options than just A or B which are both bad. We might just end up having option C. I really would like it if they did. 

[Cobra's_back]

And even if she does, where to after that? Seize a part of Orlais? Both sides would crack down on her. Attempt to claim the dales? While they're a zombie and demon ridden wasteland where the entire military might of Orlais happens to be situated? Maybe she can market them as a force to be used in conjunction with celene/gaspard's armies, am bargain for rights that way. Literally this whole arguement is that we don't see briala as helpful(to Orlais, the inquisition, or the elves). She wants to help, but we see her actions so far(and her purported methods) as making the elves seem antagonistic. Most of us arguing want to see the elves treated better, we just think she's gonna screw the pooch and the backlash will be not worth it.

 

We don't know yet. I didn't write the game. Would I as a player want the choice? YES. 

[AresKeith]

You mean how Mercury suggested a few pages earlier, when she said we would "most likely have to off her."

 

Doesn't mean we'll be forced to do it or can't make her stand down to help us

 

Your jumping to conclusions and getting defensive over nothing

[Cobra's_back]

efd731,

 

"And even if she does, where to after that? Seize a part of Orlais? Both sides would crack down on her."

 

Sounds like fun. How about Israel didn't they take out several countries and are stilling going strong? I think the writers if they want to can make a third option. Seize a part of Orlais? This sounds like a very good thing for all elves. I'm sure the writers can make it happen. Its a fantasy.