1992 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

That was not the point you used.

 

Anyway, it matter not if she is prolonging the fight. She still not at fault being that the issue with the people fighting. Why help the people who's good graces comes and goes as the wind. The issue is that the elves and commoners are pawns to the nobles wimes. Helping one side would never solve that problem, it expands it. If the issue is that innocent die because the nobles fight then those innocent should make it so that the nobles never have that type of power again.

You say Briala should help one side to make the fight quicker and less lives be lost from it. But you miss one thing, what makes sure this type of fight never happens again. You miss the issue here. It's the noble that are the issue.

 

True the nobles are the issue and when they become too much a problem people act. Briala has it figured out.

[In Exile]

I'll agree with Lobsel on this. The one clan we ran into in TME were assholes, but none of the other Dalish we've seen have abandoned their urban cousins. Maybe it's just an Orlesian thing, and the clans in other countries are more reasonable?

 

The Dalish lore we've seen is all about victim blaming the CEs. Even some of the attitude we see from the Dalish in DA:O looks to the CEs as "missing" something that would allow them to stand up to their oppressors. While the Dalish accept CEs with open arms, it's on the implied condition that the CEs become Dalish. We haven't seen someone, for example, stay with the Dalish while openly worshiping Andraste and not considering themselves Dalish. 

 

It would require a shift in thinking for the Dalish to support "elvenhood" instead of a particular Dalish identity. 

[leaguer of one]

True. i thought she was pretty reasonable when she still supported Celene even when Celene had her arrested. I remember in the book it seemed she had some reservations when Celene talked about the elves working with the mirrors to help Celenes cause. I think she was beginning to see that Celene was just going to use them to get what she wanted and could throw them under the bus if she needed to. When she finds out Celene killed her parents, the question could turns into a for sure.

I got cold chills when I read  her plans for the elves and I still did not want Briala to turn on her....Then we found out Celene killed her parents. That was the moment I was all for Briala's betrayal.

[leaguer of one]

Speak for yourself. I don't give a damn about Orlais. If the Eluvian network is more useful to me for stopping the Veil tears than Orlesian armies, I'll take that and leave the nobles to burn.

 

And the game did let you accomplish Loghain's goals, namely saving Ferelden.

*Claps

[efd731]

Speak for yourself. I don't give a damn about Orlais. If the Eluvian network is more useful to me for stopping the Veil tears than Orlesian armies, I'll take that and leave the nobles to burn.

And the game did let you accomplish Loghain's goals, namely saving Ferelden.

But that's the problem Xil, the game has to make the eluvians equivalent to all of Orlais forces for that statement to make sense.
Also, you state that(loghain's goals) like it's some sort of achievement. You have to save fereldan no matter what, the fact that loghain's aim is the same as yours means nothing. He is still a villain, and left unchecked would've been the downfall of what he was trying to achieve. Sounds rather like a certain elven character from a book you've yet to read.
Edit:not villain, antagonist
Reedit: also, implying that you'll side with Orlais at all *snorts

[Xilizhra]

Anyone who isn't a racist would, IMO. There's just to real choice for the Inquisition here, if there is a "side with one faction of three situation" - the goal should be to side with whoever is best at stopping the demons. 

 

Keep in mind that you're not letting thee nobles burn - you're letting hundreds/thousands of poor peasants die for the opportunity to enrich their betters. Orlais is a classist society as much as it is a segregated one. 

If I must end this war, I will, but only on terms advantageous to the elves. And when I do it, this PC is quite willing to be brutal; as of now, killing Gaspard and every last one of his supporters seems appealing if it must be done. Orlais will learn the price of interference with the safety of the fabric of reality.

 

 

But that's the problem Xil, the game has to make the eluvians equivalent to all of Orlais forces for that statement to make sense.
Also, you state that(loghain's goals) like it's some sort of achievement. You have to save fereldan no matter what, the fact that loghain's aim is the same as yours means nothing. He is still a villain, and left unchecked would've been the downfall of what he was trying to achieve. Sounds rather like a certain elven character from a book you've yet to read.
Edit:not villain, antagonist

Why wouldn't they be? Instant transport has so many uses in and of itself, whereas armies can be called from anywhere. In any case, we might be able to get Celene and Briala on the same side again... and if we have to save and uplift the elves no matter what while still opposing Briala for some reason, I'll count that as victory enough.

[Heimdall]

1. Picking a side ends the war and saves the innocence you're going on and on about.
2.You're misunderstanding the quote. It's not that she want  the war to last longer. It's that her action would result in that. She care not for how long the war last because it will not effect the people she want to protect. Big difference.
 
And why should she help end the war. Doing that is just going to give more power to the noble who started the war in the first place allowing them the chance to do it all over again. These innocence  you go on about need to go out and make sure the noble don't have this power anymore.
You missing the point here that her help is just going to make the problem worse

First, I'm not arguing about what Briala should do. I'm undecided on that front. I'm telling you why I find her current actions unconscionable. Your trying to argue about something I'm not even arguing about.

Second...What part of prolonging the war will help her people break free in the chaos are NOT understanding? Are you just willfully blind? She says it right there!

Third, that she doesn't care about what happens to the people of Orlais is exactly my problem with her. You bring up the nobles a lot, and I'm sure you want them to be taken down a peg, but it's ENTIRELY OUTSIDE MY POINT.

[Palidane]

Speak for yourself. I don't give a damn about Orlais. If the Eluvian network is more useful to me for stopping the Veil tears than Orlesian armies, I'll take that and leave the nobles to burn.

Big if. There's still way too many unknowns for me to make a judgement call (how many functional, in what locations, ease of use, ease of location, ease of destruction), but it would have to be extremely powerful to outdo the entire Orlesian Empire. And if it was that powerful, I don't see why I couldn't fight my way to Briala and take the gem from her, allowing me to have my cake and eat it too.

 

And the game did let you accomplish Loghain's goals, namely saving Ferelden.

 

 

Debatable. It's kind of hard to save Ferelden from Orlais when Orlais isn't attacking. Loghain had his head so far up his own ass that he didn't notice the Blight was an actual threat until they were kicking down Denerim's gate. 

[Hellion Rex]

Big if. There's still way too many unknowns for me to make a judgement call (how many functional, in what locations, ease of use, ease of location, ease of destruction), but it would have to be extremely powerful to outdo the entire Orlesian Empire. And if it was that powerful, I don't see why I couldn't fight my way to Briala and take the gem from her, allowing me to have my cake and eat it too.

 

 

 

Debatable. It's kind of hard to save Ferelden from Orlais when Orlais isn't attacking. Loghain had his head so far up his own ass that he didn't notice the Blight was an actual threat until they were kicking down Denerim's gate. 

Yaaasss, Palidane, yaaassss!

 

(I'm out of likes lol)

[In Exile]

If I must end this war, I will, but only on terms advantageous to the elves. And when I do it, this PC is quite willing to be brutal; as of now, killing Gaspard and every last one of his supporters seems appealing if it must be done. Orlais will learn the price of interference with the safety of the fabric of reality.

 

That's hypocritical. You're playing games with the fabric of reality as much as either Celene or Gaspard would. You're just blaming them for not bending to your demands. 

 

 

Why wouldn't they be? Instant transport has so many uses in and of itself, whereas armies can be called from anywhere.

 

You need actual armies for that to work. At any rate, I don't actually think eluvians are useful for moving large scale armies - remember, these are mirrors that are one person wide. It would take hours to move any substantial number of troops. I think their real value is in getting the Inquisitor's personal strike team from A to B fast, basically letting the Inquisition put out fires all over Thedas. 

[efd731]

If I must end this war, I will, but only on terms advantageous to the elves. And when I do it, this PC is quite willing to be brutal; as of now, killing Gaspard and every last one of his supporters seems appealing if it must be done. Orlais will learn the price of interference with the safety of the fabric of reality.


Why wouldn't they be? Instant transport has so many uses in and of itself, whereas armies can be called from anywhere. In any case, we might be able to get Celene and Briala on the same side again... and if we have to save and uplift the elves no matter what while still opposing Briala for some reason, I'll count that as victory enough.

Nice of you to drop the Loghain bit it did nothing for your arguement.
And yes, instant transport is useful....if you have an exclusively elven army to send through, an the time to send a large group one by one thought the eluvians. Instant travel to another mirror.....not so much. "And if we *have* to save and uplift the elves" that is "victory enough". Xil, I get that you're pro-elf, but that's not really the basis of the arguements.

[Palidane]

If I must end this war, I will, but only on terms advantageous to the elves. And when I do it, this PC is quite willing to be brutal; as of now, killing Gaspard and every last one of his supporters seems appealing if it must be done. Orlais will learn the price of interference with the safety of the fabric of reality.

 

Translation: They will learn to agree with my views. I don't think elven standards of living have much to do with the safety of the fabric of reality.

 

Why wouldn't they be? Instant transport has so many uses in and of itself, whereas armies can be called from anywhere. In any case, we might be able to get Celene and Briala on the same side again... and if we have to save and uplift the elves no matter what while still opposing Briala for some reason, I'll count that as victory enough. 

 

 

Believe it or not, there are a finite amount of skilled armies on the continent. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the best of them, unless you think you're gaggle of elven peasants will be a suitable replacement.

 

By the way, everyone seems to be saying you haven't read the Masked Empire yet. I haven't seen that in your posts, so is it true? It was a great book, and I would think you would want to know as much about this situation as you can.

[Xilizhra]

Big if. There's still way too many unknowns for me to make a judgement call (how many functional, in what locations, ease of use, ease of location, ease of destruction), but it would have to be extremely powerful to outdo the entire Orlesian Empire. And if it was that powerful, I don't see why I couldn't fight my way to Briala and take the gem from her, allowing me to have my cake and eat it too.

All things to find out in the game itself, but there's less than zero reason to write off a priori the possibility of siding with Briala. Especially when we might be able to get both her and Celene on the same side.

 

 

Debatable. It's kind of hard to save Ferelden from Orlais when Orlais isn't attacking. Loghain had his head so far up his own ass that he didn't notice the Blight was an actual threat until they were kicking down Denerim's gate. 

Not that debatable (and Orlais probably was attempting a sneaky form of conquest at the time, it's just that the Blight was worse and Loghain is a horrible politician), as Ferelden was still saved.

 

 

 

That's hypocritical. You're playing games with the fabric of reality as much as either Celene or Gaspard would. You're just blaming them for not bending to your demands. 

 

Demands that shouldn't even have to exist. But I will definitely say that the affair is mostly Gaspard's fault, as he started the war to begin with.

 

 

 

You need actual armies for that to work. At any rate, I don't actually think eluvians are useful for moving large scale armies - remember, these are mirrors that are one person wide. It would take hours to move any substantial number of troops. I think their real value is in getting the Inquisitor's personal strike team from A to B fast, basically letting the Inquisition put out fires all over Thedas. 

 

Quite useful enough in its own right, especially when we have to reach the Agents of Chaos to kill them (also, "hours" is still much less time than forced marches over long distances would take).

 

 

Translation: They will learn to agree with my views. I don't think elven standards of living have much to do with the safety of the fabric of reality.

 

 

Believe it or not, there are a finite amount of skilled armies on the continent. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the best of them, unless you think you're gaggle of elven peasants will be a suitable replacement.

 

By the way, everyone seems to be saying you haven't read the Masked Empire yet. I haven't seen that in your posts, so is it true? It was a great book, and I would think you would want to know as much about this situation as you can.

Elven standards of living have to do with gaining Briala's allegiance and her Eluvians, which I'll likely need for my mission. And I think just kicking the crap out of Gaspard will suffice anyway.

 

The Inquisition gets armies from other places, judging by all of the concept art thus far, and I'm not reading TME until I feel like giving myself a rage-induced coronary.

[efd731]

Xil won't touch it because she heard that celene and briala break up. Apparently them having conflicting motivations and personalities is less important than the fact that they are lesbians who don't get a happy
Ending.
Edit: and this apparently negates the worth of the rest of the story as well. Nevermind the fact that they are main characters who are well thought out and interesting.

[Hellion Rex]

efd, let's leave that subject alone for now, please.

[Xilizhra]

Xil won't touch it because she heard that celene and briala break up. Apparently them having conflicting motivations and personalities is less important than the fact that they are lesbians who don't get a happy
Ending.

Firstly, Ieldra said not to speak of that topic. Secondly, I invite anyone who's interested in explanations of this that aren't complete strawmen to PM me.

[leaguer of one]

First, I'm not arguing about what Briala should do. I'm undecided on that front. I'm telling you why I find her current actions unconscionable. Your trying to argue about something I'm not even arguing about.

Second...What part of prolonging the war will help her people break free in the chaos are NOT understanding? Are you just willfully blind? She says it right there!

Third, that she doesn't care about what happens to the people of Orlais is exactly my problem with her. You bring up the nobles a lot, and I'm sure you want them to be taken down a peg, but it's ENTIRELY OUTSIDE MY POINT.

1. I'm not arguing which side she should pick. I'm saying the only way she can shorten the war is to pick a side. You keep saying she is wrong for making the war last longer allowing innocence to die but you are ignoring the fact the only way to shorten the war is for her to pick a side and the consequences of her doing so.

 

2.Again you are not understanding. Her goal is not to prolong the war. It just her inaction to help a side will do so. The point is her helping a side will do harm to her people being that she has yet to fully arrange the upper hand for them yet. Not helping gives her a chance to help her people first.

 

3. It's not her place to care. Nor is it her issue. She does not need to care. There is no point for her to make any actions to help the humans of orlais. It's a human problem now for humans to solve. Why? Helping the human will not help her people who been bowing and scraping to them for years. Helping the humans now will have her lose the chance to help her people. If the human have issues then they need to solve it them selves. The humans issue is that their nobles have too much power, they them selves need to solve that, not the elves. 

[Cobra's_back]

I got cold chills when I read  her plans for the elves and I still did not want Briala to turn on her....Then we found out Celene killed her parents. That was the moment I was all for Briala's betrayal.

 

Same here. I thought Briala showed incredible patience. 

[efd731]

Firstly, Ieldra said not to speak of that topic. Secondly, I invite anyone who's interested in explanations of this that aren't complete strawmen to PM me.

Will respect OP's wishes. However not straw man.

[In Exile]

Demands that shouldn't even have to exist. But I will definitely say that the affair is mostly Gaspard's fault, as he started the war to begin with.

 

 

No, they shouldn't. In an ideal world, Orlais wouldn't be a racially oppressive empire. But it is. And asking Celene/Gaspard to agree to breaking up the entire or to die in risk dying in a demon invasion isn't really different from them asking you abandon the elves or risk dying in a demon invasion. 

 

I'm not objecting to your means given your goals, I'm just saying it's a case of not-so-different after-all. If anything, it's what an elven Gaspard would do. 

 

Quite useful enough in its own right, especially when we have to reach the Agents of Chaos to kill them (also, "hours" is still much less time than forced marches over long distances would take).

 

It's better than forced marches, absolutely. I just don't think this fight comes down to a massive army any more than DA:O did - the soldiers are just cannon fodder. 

[leaguer of one]

Xil won't touch it because she heard that celene and briala break up. Apparently them having conflicting motivations and personalities is less important than the fact that they are lesbians who don't get a happy
Ending.
Edit: and this apparently negates the worth of the rest of the story as well. Nevermind the fact that they are main characters who are well thought out and interesting.

Xil is ignoring the fact that the break up is  Celene's fault.

[Xilizhra]

 

No, they shouldn't. In an ideal world, Orlais wouldn't be a racially oppressive empire. But it is. And asking Celene/Gaspard to agree to breaking up the entire or to die in risk dying in a demon invasion isn't really different from them asking you abandon the elves or risk dying in a demon invasion. 

 

I'm not objecting to your means given your goals, I'm just saying it's a case of not-so-different after-all. If anything, it's what an elven Gaspard would do. 

It is, because it's necessary to gain control of the Eluvian network, which I see as an immensely useful tool. And if I didn't want to court Briala, I'd have to demand that she abandon the elves or die in a demon invasion, and would be right back to where I started. So in the end, I have no choice but to make demands of someone, but unlike Gaspard, I didn't start any wars.

 

 

 

It's better than forced marches, absolutely. I just don't think this fight comes down to a massive army any more than DA:O did - the soldiers are just cannon fodder. 

 

Yes, in which case the Eluvians are even better.

 

 

Xil is ignoring the fact that the break up is  Celene's fault.

That was never the point.

[Palidane]

(God it is so annoying that I can't [/quote[ to break up these quote blocks. Anyone have any formatting tips?)

All things to find out in the game itself, but there's less than zero reason to write off a priori the possibility of siding with Briala. Especially when we might be able to get both her and Celene on the same side.

 

Not that debatable (and Orlais probably was attempting a sneaky form of conquest at the time, it's just that the Blight was worse and Loghain is a horrible politician), as Ferelden was still saved.

 

The Inquisition gets armies from other places, judging by all of the concept art thus far, and I'm not reading TME until I feel like giving myself a rage-induced coronary.

To your first point, agreed, though I would hope for an alliance with Gaspard. Celene is a treacherous ****** who can't be counted on.

 

To your second, ehh, maybe, but Celene doesn't seem like the conquering type. Besides, Ostagar would have gone a lot different if we had an extra three hundred Grey Wardens and a couple platoons of Chevaliers there to lend a hand.

 

To your third, every army counts. Tevinter is a viper than can't be counted on, the Free Marches are in disarray, Ferelden is recovering from the Blight, Antiva and Rivain are too small. I think Nevarra and Orlais are the only heavy-hitters left, and I wouldn't dismiss one so quickly.

 

As for TME, I'm not sure what you'd find objectionable in it. There's a clan of Dalish that are a bit more one-dimensional then I would like, but all of the other characters are really deep and complex, and the ending has an awesome twist that really shakes up the status quo, though I guess you've had it spoiled. I would definitely recommend it, especially to someone like you, who is interested in the plight of the elves.

[Heimdall]

1. I'm not arguing which side she should pick. I'm saying the only way she can shorten the war is to pick a side. You keep saying she is wrong for making the war last longer allowing innocence to die but you are ignoring the fact the only way to shorten the war is for her to pick a side and the consequences of her doing so.

Or she could just stop actively prolonging it, there's always that. Briala's cause is hopeless in my eyes. Her disregard for the human population will only make more enemies when the elves need allies desperately. They're a minority, leaguer, and every moment Orlais weakens is a moment it looks more appetizing to Nevarra. And yes, she's perpetuating daily harm to the commoners. I don't need to have an alternative to tell you her current plan is disastrous.
 

2.Again you are not understanding. Her goal is not to prolong the war. It just her inaction to help a side will do so. The point is her helping a side will do harm to her people being that she has yet to fully arrange the upper hand for them yet. Not helping gives her a chance to help her people first.

Felassan asks her "Which army will you hamstring?" To which she replies "Whichever one is winning". I hope you know that 'to hamstring' means to cripple? Hamper? Sabotage? Which part of this statement implies inaction?
 

3. It's not her place to care. Nor is it her issue. She does not need to care. There is no point for her to make any actions to help the humans of orlais. It's a human problem now for humans to solve. Why? Helping the human will not help her people who been bowing and scraping to them for years. Helping the humans now will have her lose the chance to help her people. If the human have issues then they need to solve it them selves. The humans issue is that their nobles have too much power, they them selves need to solve that, not the elves.

You see, I don't view possible elven freedom as intrinsically more valuable than innocent lives. I approve of her goals. I don't approve of her disregard for people outside her select group. More to the point, I don't approve of how willing she is to see them suffer to further her goals.

[leaguer of one]

Or she could just stop actively prolonging it, there's always that. Briala's cause is hopeless in my eyes. Her disregard for the human population will only make more enemies when the elves need allies desperately. They're a minority, leaguer, and every moment Orlais weakens is a moment it looks more appetizing to Nevarra. And yes, she's perpetuating daily harm to the commoners. I don't need to have an alternative to tell you her current plan is disastrous.
 
Felassan asks her "Which army will you hamstring?" To which she replies "Whichever one is winning". I hope you know that 'to hamstring' means to cripple? Hamper? Sabotage? Which part of this statement implies inaction?
 
You see, I don't view possible elven freedom as intrinsically more valuable than innocent lives. I approve of her goals. I don't approve of her disregard for people outside her select group. More to the point, I don't approve of how willing she is to see them suffer to further her goals.

1. How is that going to do harm to the elves if the issue is human killing humans due to human nobles interest and unbalanced power. Normally when that happens the commoner try to take down all the nobles.

 

2.And that does not defer my point.

3.It not up to her and the elves to save those lives. It's not their issue. It like putting the dwarves at fault for not helping in the orlias civil war. It's their problem for them to solve. Helping is not going to do that. Normally it just makes it worse. The issue is the imbalance of power from commoner to noble. The commoners need to see that it's an issue and the only way they can see that it is when things get worse. Helping is only going to prolong the problem.