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Playing HNM really changes perspective

Débuté par Guest_starlitegirlx_* , avril 14 2014 05:39

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#26
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:31

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It can be done to an extent, but they are still different. I think Carver and (Warrior) Hawke capture it better (even if they are technically Free Marcher nobility).

 

I want to be one of these Fereldens in the concept art:

 

Fereldens

 

Here's Ferelden nobility, just for reference. Which is actually kind of barbaric looking in it's own right, but the game itself doesn't reflect it, I guess.

 

Nothing in the game reflects the barbaric roots except what you get out of the wilds. That is the games version of barbarians it seems. I guess they felt it would have been a bland story but it would be nice to have a non mage that is not tied up in nobility. I wonder if part of why they scrapped it was because it was a story that doesn't show oppression in some way or upper class plots and manipulations which is essentially what all the openings reflect on some level. I haven't played the dwarf commoner opening but my guess is it has something to do with Jarvia or that kind of lifestyle and the dark side of the dwarf lifestyle. Since all the other openings lean in this direction, my guess is that because it didn't drive home this lesson they chose to scrap it, being heavy handed as they are with the assumption that you couldn't deduce what life is like in ferelden in general from all the other scenarios you see in the game and all the other openings.


#27
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:33

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Every single Origin ends with a death sentence. Every Warden survives - whether they want to or not - because of Duncan.

And then it's a full circle when your death comes again at the end of the game. (Even if you elect to avoid it, it's fantastic symmetry.)


Assuming Alistair is about 20, he was sent to the Chantry 10 years ago. Maric died 5 years ago. Alistair would have to be only 15 if "sent to the Chantry at age 10" occurred the same year as Maric's death.

 

So that shows Eamon did it as a favor and when Maric died so did the favor or he would have kept him. Isolade won her battle because Maric was dead. Though I do then to think of Alistair as mid twenties. It's very hard to tell specifics like age in the game. Eamon looks like Teagan's father, not his brother. Alistair looks mid twenties to me. Even my human characters look early twenties. I guess they leave this open for the varying ages of players. Younger players might want him to be closer to 20 while older players might be cool with closer to 30.


#28
Jaison1986
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:35

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I personally wished the Redcliffe choice backfire badly, but not because I don't want a happy conclusion, but because it would make the situation a lot more beliavable. Leaving the castle defenless while you spend half a week going to the circle is anything but a smart plan. What if the demon goes on a second rampage and kill more innocents? Only to either save an selfish ****** that don't care how her actions affect the others, or the kid who is originally responsible for this mess to being with? I hope more stuff like that happens in Inquisition, were trying to do the "right" thing is not necessarly the best option.

 

I also came to dislike Eamon as time went by. The fact that he would cast out an innocent child to please his wife who hated Alistair simply for existing really made me turn my nose. If I had an wife like that I would tell her to shove it and leave at once. You want me to throw away my adopted son just so you can keep appearances? 


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#29
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 01:56

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I personally wished the Redcliffe choice backfire badly, but not because I don't want a happy conclusion, but because it would make the situation a lot more beliavable. Leaving the castle defenless while you spend half a week going to the circle is anything but a smart plan. What if the demon goes on a second rampage and kill more innocents? Only to either save an selfish ****** that don't care how her actions affect the others, or the kid who is originally responsible for this mess to being with? I hope more stuff like that happens in Inquisition, were trying to do the "right" thing is not necessarly the best option.

 

I also came to dislike Eamon as time went by. The fact that he would cast out an innocent child to please his wife who hated Alistair simply for existing really made me turn my nose. If I had an wife like that I would tell her to shove it and leave at once. You want me to throw away my adopted son just so you can keep appearances? 

 

There's no logical reason as to why leaving the castle should not have gone badly. In fact, it's glaringly obvious to most people that it should have barring that there might have not been many of those corpses left if you cleared the study and armored men, but still, the armor - they were not bodies. The others were what I assume was once people who were in the castle, and who is to say they wouldn't get up and start attacking again. Plus if you did not venture upstairs... well there are several rooms full of them. You just can't go past connor or you have to kill him. But you can clear out the other rooms. If you didn't then how Teagan and Isolade survive is shocking except that the demon was no there for the discussion and might still believe it will survive and needs a few days to regroup it's forces. There is that side of it. But again, it's such a stupid decision that in my first game I didn't even contemplate it until Alistair threw a fit on me for using Isolade. However, I have discovered that he never does this anymore. I don't think it's a bug though. I think if you have been to the tower already and cleared it, and if you do not have another mage with you who can offer another option, and if you say you need time to consider it but never actually ask if there is another way it might set some flags. I'm not sure but according to the wiki or whatever it is that gives the dialogue approval with alistair there is no conversation for isolade that results in negatives. It's non existent. So it might be a bug if he treats it that way. I'm not sure. Or it might be due to multiple factors.

 

Eamon feels like an opportunist making a grab for power through Alistair. I think he expects to use Alistair as his puppet. I always delight in not giving him what he wants though the game treats it otherwise. When my Male or Female cousland marry Anora or Alistair, they do not turn to him. He has no power. I don't care what the cards say. There should be options to check who you would choose to be the chancellor or if you would co rule or what given it is a cousland who is no less capable than Anora or Alistair... especially alistair. And Fergus survived. He would be great as a chancellor if not a male human noble with alistair ruling solely. I think it really should have allowed for some variable in the slides rather than what we got as it doesn't really allow for who your character is personality wise. So far, all my nobles would have been ruling along side or even controlling Alistair to some degree. They would have relied on Fergus rather than Eamon. Eamon would have gotten the boot back to redcliffe after dumping alistair for a regular lay from a shrew of a woman.


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#30
Corker
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 03:05

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I wonder if part of why they scrapped it was because it was a story that doesn't show oppression in some way or upper class plots and manipulations which is essentially what all the openings reflect on some level.


Here is why they scrapped Human Commoner and Human Barbarian.

#31
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 03:15

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So that shows Eamon did it as a favor and when Maric died so did the favor or he would have kept him. Isolade won her battle because Maric was dead.


Only if Alistair is 15, which I rather doubt. If he is older than that at all, Maric was alive when he went to the Chantry.

Alistair says he was sent to the Chantry "when he was 10."
Maric died in 9:25.
Current year is 9:30.

So if Alistair is, say, eighteen, he was sent to the Chantry eight years ago (when he was 10) which is 9:22. Maric was still on the throne.

#32
theskymoves
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 03:24

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If we accept what TWOT timeline - page 140 - gives as Alistair's DOB (and there's no good reason not to accept it, IMO), he was born in 9:10, which makes him 20-ish during the events of the game. 


#33
Jedimaster88
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 05:01

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Eamon feels like an opportunist making a grab for power through Alistair. I think he expects to use Alistair as his puppet.

 

That could be true to some extend. Wouldnt be surprised.

 

I dont particularly like it when Eamon makes his suggestion to make Alistair king and speaks about duty and other nonsense, but was there any other choice to stop Loghain? As Eamon says we would waste lots of troops if we wage full war against Loghain and while I would really like to assasinate him and be done with it, it would look really suspicious if we would step in right after Loghain dies. Could there have been other ways that dont involve lots of bloodshead or something really suspicious that could make us look bad?


#34
Jordan
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 05:34

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I feel like Human Noble should only be played as a dbag, degenerate type person.

"I'm of Noble blood; Uncrowned King of the Grey Wardens; Can, and will, kick your bum if I don't get my way. > anything you have to say.

Anyone who plays the role of a young Noble man any differently probably does not understand social class.

#35
Elhanan
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 05:59

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If only one could imagine a person of Nobility that was not typed by class or social status.....


#36
Jaison1986
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 06:08

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I feel like Human Noble should only be played as a dbag, degenerate type person.

"I'm of Noble blood; Uncrowned King of the Grey Wardens; Can, and will, kick your bum if I don't get my way. > anything you have to say.

Anyone who plays the role of a young Noble man any differently probably does not understand social class.

 

But the Couslands are quite different from the typical nobles. They are fair to the people and have a lot of integrity. So it makes sense to play as an HN that tries to follow their parents example.


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#37
Master Race
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 06:26

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I'm sure the Couslands have their "typical noble" moments in their history but the current line (Bryce with his sons Fergus and Warden) are definitively a lot like the Stark family from Game of Thrones. If you are unaware with that show or the Song of Ice and Fire books then this won't make much sense but they are definitively like the Stark family

 

Possible Game of thrones spoilers:

 

 

 

 

 

Like the Starks the Couslands are honorable, bent the knee to a conqueror who united the land, one of the most powerful families in the land,were betrayed by a family friend that saw their most of their family massacred and their lands usurped and have a member who joined an an ancient order of thieves, cuthroats, soldiers and anyone they can get (Night Watch-Grey Wardens) defending aganist an invasion from outside forces that wish to see Westeros/The North (Fereleden) destroyed. So i definitively wouldn't consider the current Couslands to be your typical elitist douchebag nobles.


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#38
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:04

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...they put the Ferelden lord in a peplos dress?  Oh.  Maybe it's a tabard.  It's sort of... Gustav Klimt does a Slavo-Germanic mash-up.  I like it.  Super-loving the bright enamel decorations of the Lady of the Skies on that first one, and the garnet-and-goldwork inspired footwear. I am actually coveting that guy's shoes; they're strongly reminding me of Queen Arnegunde's, only with her bling on the shoe instead of on the garters. Although he can keep the furry spats.

 

The garments and a lot of the armor in DAO are definitely more generic fantasy/late Middle Ages/Ren Festy, no argument there.  The Chasind robes and Thane Helmet can work for a sort of fantasy barbarian, Conanish look, but it's true there's very little that reflects (or even refracts through a fantasy lens) the cultures and eras that inform the Fereldan artistic motifs used in the names, the codex literature entries, the architectural decorations and some of the artworks.

 

I don't know what to say to this post. Your art/style history is impressive. And shoes? Are you sure you're a dwarf... and not some redheaded bard? B)

 

I didn't realize it was Lady of the Skies. Was curious about that.


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#39
Xetykins
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:14

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I'm sure the Couslands have their "typical noble" moments in their history but the current line (Bryce with his sons Fergus and Warden) are definitively a lot like the Stark family from Game of Thrones. If you are unaware with that show or the Song of Ice and Fire books then this won't make much sense but they are definitively like the Stark family
 
Possible Game of thrones spoilers:
 
 
 
 
 
Like the Starks the Couslands are honorable, bent the knee to a conqueror who united the land, one of the most powerful families in the land,were betrayed by a family friend that saw their most of their family massacred and their lands usurped and have a member who joined an an ancient order of thieves, cuthroats, soldiers and anyone they can get (Night Watch-Grey Wardens) defending aganist an invasion from outside forces that wish to see Westeros/The North (Fereleden) destroyed. So i definitively wouldn't consider the current Couslands to be your typical elitist douchebag nobles.


Until you pointed this out, I would never have made the connection. It has been a long time since I've read the first book. And I'm not watching the series cuz I refuse to re-live the darkness.

#40
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:15

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We don't even know Riordan or Duncan's history. Were they conscripted? Or did they join? Or just another one of the many opportunistic grabs we see so much of in the openings?

 

We know Duncan's history. He was a thief, who got caught by his victim, and Duncan ended up killing him. The victim turned out to be a Grey Warden... who actually thanked Duncan for his death. lol. That freaked him out that he thanked him. The Warden Commander Geneveive caught up and decided to put Duncan through the Joining as a punishment. She was hoping he'd die... turns out he didn't. And for a long while, Duncan hated the Wardens. He tried to escape multiple times. He was worse than Anders. lol. And worse than a good natured "cutpurse" like Daveth.

 

Riordan says he did the Joining at the same time as Duncan, but we don't know much more than that. He's a rogue and a Duelist spec though. Maybe a colorful past?

 

As for Starks and Couslands, I see it as either corny like Robb Stark. Or more Robin Hood-esque, like Arya Stark. You can play it either way.

 

But yeah, they're supposed to be a honorable noble family. "Ruling with justice and temperance". It's one of the few Origins that puts you in a pretty tight niche, with a descriptor like that.


#41
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:22

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What I have done is play the human noble as a non noble, which can be hard. I basically dismiss that the beginning is a noble family. A few times I had to code straight to Ostagar so to skip the whole opening to do it. Backstory is that I am like Ser Gilmore or a servant. If you tour the castle before you start, you see in the library a few boys being educated. You can pretend you were one of his students once (which the old man does mention) but you were a student as a servant or soldier like the boys rather than royalty. It's easy enough to pull off if you fast forward through the dialogue that implies you are their child. I was a servant for the Couslands. I tried to save them. I basically have a different conversation in my head when that is taking place. It is the one of someone who is loyal to the Couslands (so the rest of the story works pretty well because you would want justice, but you only served them rather than being one of them).

 

Frankly, they could have done that as the commoner/soldier opening and just changed a few things. I don't know why they had to abandon the whole thing. The soldier fights to rescue them but they in this opening the mother dies (no child there to protect her). Have him fighting with Duncan to save Bryce then Bryce sends them off to find his wife and maybe a daughter who die in the attack. The soldier could actually be a servant as well who surprises Bryce when she protects him. You are either a soldier or a servant for the couslands then. You see it unfold differently. Same background basically but different cutscenes (if you are soldier you start with a different cutscene opening than if you are a servant) and of course different circumstances than the noble opening. Backstory would be that Bryce and his family were good to you. Your came to them very young shortly after your family was killed in a bandit raid. Bryce took you in at a young age and you were a servant or became a soldier when you were old enough. You lived there. You were treated well. Then you see Howe's treachery. Bryce dies on the floor and Duncan offers you a place as a grey warden after seeing your skill in battle. You don't want to leave the fight but Duncan points out that they are overwhelmed and you would die a pointless death. If you come with him, he is going to meet with the king and you can tell of what you've seen to get justice for the family. That would have been a cool opening. Now you are not a noble so you have no 'desire' or compulsion to grab for the throne. You are avenging the family you worked for and have a new 'family' as yours (well, they were like your family - the servants and soldiers as well as the Couslands to some degree) was just slaughtered. You've seen Howe's treachery and that's an interesting take from the perspective of one who served them loyally.


#42
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:26

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That could've worked just as well, I think.

 

Might've been cool to have the Human Commoner get to see most of the story taking place in Highever city though. Rather than the Castle.

 

Highever itself interests me.. what the culture may be like. It's the Coastlands (I wonder if the name "Cousland" is referring to that). They're a dock town. Probably a good share of all kinds of colorful characters there.


#43
Master Race
Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:29

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I thought of the Cousland-Stark comparison when i saw someone mention how the Grey Wardens and Night's watch seem extremely similar. After checking things out i found i was not the first to think of the Stark-Cousland comparison and it really makes playing one a lot more fun to me.

 

 

With the way i am currently playing my Cousland Warden i see him as Jon Snow with Robb Stark's stubbornness and birthright/lineage. Though if i play a rogue human noble i think taking some ideas from Arya Stark's personality would go a long way :)


#44
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:47

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I thought of the Cousland-Stark comparison when i saw someone mention how the Grey Wardens and Night's watch seem extremely similar. After checking things out i found i was not the first to think of the Stark-Cousland comparison and it really makes playing one a lot more fun to me.

 

 

With the way i am currently playing my Cousland Warden i see him as Jon Snow with Robb Stark's stubbornness and birthright/lineage. Though if i play a rogue human noble i think taking some ideas from Arya Stark's personality would go a long way :)

 

You're right, there's a mix of Jon and Robb going on.

 

But I'm all about Arya either way. She's awesome. Even if I play a male (and adult), she's cooler. Jon's OK, but Robb's a bit too conventional.

 

Interestingly, it seems like Fergus Cousland has a bit of Jon's story too. He says he was taken care of by Chasind all that time. Probably went native a bit. Heh.


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#45
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:50

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That could be true to some extend. Wouldnt be surprised.

 

I dont particularly like it when Eamon makes his suggestion to make Alistair king and speaks about duty and other nonsense, but was there any other choice to stop Loghain? As Eamon says we would waste lots of troops if we wage full war against Loghain and while I would really like to assasinate him and be done with it, it would look really suspicious if we would step in right after Loghain dies. Could there have been other ways that dont involve lots of bloodshead or something really suspicious that could make us look bad?

 

I see it as him using Alistair. Partly to stop Loghain but partly as a grab for power as well as some revenge. When he says it is his duty, yes there is some truth to that but nobody had a duty to Alistair, did they? If his royal blood was such an important thing, then he should have considered it before sending him off to the chantry. In fact, if Alistair were not standing there what would he suggest you do? Try to get him from the chantry?

 

It's just another one of those opportunist moments we see. Like if you decide to take the golems to a degree you are being an opportunist strengthening your army beyond men. If you side with the werewolves and don't cure the curse again you are being an opportunist unless it is out of racist spite. Wardens are the ultimate opportunists in recruiting and in using whatever they must to stop the blight.

 

But there is a whole undercurrent of people with power especially acting out of opportunity. Vaughn takes the wedding and his father's absence as his opportunity. Howe takes the smaller force at the castle as his opportunity. He even sets it up to a large degree. Loghain takes the battle at ostagar and Cailan's death as an opportunity. Duncan in every opening turns it into his personal opportunity to get a new warden. Irving uses the mage as his opportunity to get back at the Chantry. Behlen uses the family situation to manipulate the siblings and create an opportunity. I'm sure there are more but these are what comes to mind. It's really all about opportunity. And Eamon is just another one who uses the situation as an opportunity. It's pretty clear he doesn't really give a damn about Alistair. It's only the precious bloodline and also, he knows alistair doesn't know how to be a king and is far from king material (even Cailan wasn't king material if you hear what anora has to say though she's kind about her loving husband). And Eamon knows this which is exactly why it is even more cunning. Who do you think Alistair will turn to? Well, he appoint Eamon his regent if you don't marry him to anora and there it is. If you marry him it's still the same with Eamon as the regent. If you do US, I guess Anora becomes queen since he doesn't kill her and Eamon gets the boot, but Eamon, with Alistair on the throne alone, just ended up ruling Ferelden, did he not? Do you think that wasn't part of the plan? Of course Alistair would turn to his uncle.


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#46
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:52

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Merathari/Dalish is one of the sadder ways to leave. There's nothing manipulative about your home life there. You're just sick and Duncan forces you to go. They even play Leliana's sad elven song as you leave.


#47
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 07:58

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I thought of the Cousland-Stark comparison when i saw someone mention how the Grey Wardens and Night's watch seem extremely similar. After checking things out i found i was not the first to think of the Stark-Cousland comparison and it really makes playing one a lot more fun to me.

 

 

With the way i am currently playing my Cousland Warden i see him as Jon Snow with Robb Stark's stubbornness and birthright/lineage. Though if i play a rogue human noble i think taking some ideas from Arya Stark's personality would go a long way :)

 

I almost wonder if some of this whole story wasn't inspired from the novels or at least the first one. There are some parallels that are hard to ignore. The Grey Wardens in general. The grabbing at the throne. The apostates and chasind sort of like the wildlings (I forget, is that what they are called?) and even the darkspawn seem a bit like they along the line of the dead that they fight. Different spins with more elaboration on things in a bit of a different direction but similar in ways not so easily dismissed.

 

Even skyrim has parrallels to the book and/or DAO.


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#48
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 08:02

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Merathari/Dalish is one of the sadder ways to leave. There's nothing manipulative about your home life there. You're just sick and Duncan forces you to go. They even play Leliana's sad elven song as you leave.

 

Actually, while there is no obvious grab for power, Duncan destroys the mirror without remorse. I agreed with him doing it as it killed my friend and near killed me. I don't want my clan destroyed by this and darkspawn, but he has the power to do it whether or not you agree. So it's his power using the opportunity to destroy a threat. No so much taking advantage there but he does take advantage of you having the taint. So really there is no difference there. Become a grey warden or die. Seems like an opportunity for him.

 

There is also the bit where your own history was kept from you. If you talk to one of the elves, she tells you that your mother killed herself. So there is secrecy that they don't bother to tell you deeming you didn't need to know but as you are about to leave she feels it's time. That is kind of a manipulation. Any child who finds out secrets like that have been kept from them would feel betrayed on some level. While it's done to protect the character, it still is a manipulation, is it not? Telling you this before you go seems a bit more like her unburdening herself rather than giving you something you have to know when you have been fine with whatever story they told you all these years. And clearly she wasn't alone in this. So your whole clan, those older than you, chose to hide this from you. I never really bonded with the Dalish opening. It did nothing for me really. I wouldn't do it again. I'd just play the human noble as I prefer playing the humans over the other races because how fragile the others look. I can't take myself as a warrior seriously when I look like a tree branch could knock me over. But that opening has its own things going on though not the power struggles and opportunities we see in the others unless you count that elf telling you of your mother's suicide as her using this as an opportunity to unburden herself from the lie and never having to look you in the eye after that because you will be gone. That to me is not entirely different though not nearly on the same level as much of the other things we've seen.


#49
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 08:15

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Actually, while there is no obvious grab for power, Duncan destroys the mirror without remorse. I agreed with him doing it as it killed my friend and near killed me. I don't want my clan destroyed by this and darkspawn, but he has the power to do it whether or not you agree. So it's his power using the opportunity to destroy a threat. No so much taking advantage there but he does take advantage of you having the taint. So really there is no difference there. Become a grey warden or die. Seems like an opportunity for him.

 

I've considered this as well. He's hard to read in that origin.

 

I'm mostly leaning on him just being an ignorant Shem. He says the mirror is Tevinter, which is where he goes wrong to begin with.

 

Ashalle, I think, just keeps the family history secret because, as she says, she doesn't want bitterness ruling your heart. She's just a sweet person who learned to live with sorrow. Not bitterness. But I roleplay it doing exactly what she feared. Afterwards, I hate humans even more and execute Zevran on the spot, just for being like one of the Humans and City Elves ambushing my parents. Sort of being a bit merciless, like Velanna.

 

edit: Not to say I hate humans entirely. Worded that wrong. I think Leliana redeems them the most.


#50
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Posté 15 avril 2014 - 08:28

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I've considered this as well. He's hard to read in that origin.

 

I'm mostly leaning on him just being an ignorant Shem. He says the mirror is Tevinter, which is where he goes wrong to begin with.

 

Ashalle, I think, just keeps the family history secret because, as she says, she doesn't want bitterness ruling your heart. She's just a sweet person who learned to live with sorrow. Not bitterness. But I roleplay it doing exactly what she feared. Afterwards, I hate humans even more and execute Zevran on the spot, just for being like one of the Humans and City Elves ambushing my parents. Sort of being a bit merciless, like Velanna.

 

edit: Not to say I hate humans entirely. Worded that wrong. I think Leliana redeems them the most.

 

None of my characters hate any race. No matter what they have been told they do not hate without reason that is justified through their own personal experience. They are not fond of what the humans have done when I play humans, but the also see that even among their own race there are those that are far from perfect and suspect that the humans who did these things were the far from perfect humans who maybe even had the power to get away with it. My elven characters also tend to share the trait that clinging to the past whether it's the one that was lost and forgotten or the one that lets dwell on injustices done in the past will not help you free yourself from this in the future. They are suspicious of humans but don't believe that they are all bad. This is proved by many they meet along the way. As you can see, I'm not big on bitter angry hostile characters. Reminds me too much of things I'd rather forget or not give air time to.


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