I'm fine with a fade to black, or a middle ground between #2 and #3. as long as the female character isn't the only one revealing skin. need more male nipples and less boobs in videogames. you know...not only males like to see skin eh!
YES!
Equality for all, mmmmmkay? 
YES!
Equality for all, mmmmmkay?
On the upside, women can see topless men whenever they want in Origins.
The point is you don't need the sex scenes to understand the plot or the characters. Of course the book would not serve the same purpose if you took the sex scenes out, because its purpose is to be erotic. But the plot would not actually change at all, and neither would the characterisation, because the plot and the characterisation do not actually rely on graphic sex scenes in order to make sense.
The fact is that sex scenes in books and film serve little to no purpose, beyond titillation. They don't advance the story, they don't add anything to characterisation.
I don't really give a **** if people want to see pixel knockers. What I want is for them to just be damn well honest about it, rather than trying to couch their desires in 'maturity' when, in fact, there is nothing inherently 'mature' about nudity at all. If anything, this obsession with nudity is shallow and juvenile.
@Mockingword:
You think that graphic sex scenes aren't "necessary" for plot or characterization? Well, you are 100% right. By that logic, however, graphic action scenes aren't necessary, either. You can skip a graphic action scene and just fade to black, can't you? A killed B. Nothing else needed.
But wait -- wouldn't you agree that how a scene unfolds can reveal significant details about a character (and affect the plot)? Did A mercifully behead B? Did A slowly flay B and allow B to die a long, painful death while cackling all the while? Did A ambush B? Or did B attack A, and A was forced to kill B in self-defense (or defense of another)? Don't these details matter? Sure, you don't "need" them -- you can just say that A is merciful or malicious, bloodthirsty or just -- but revealing it in a graphic action scene has value; it's not just blood 'n guts pr0n. (Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying a guts-o-rama, but we're talking about artistic value here.)
By the same token, not every sex scene is mere titillation. (Side-note: many writers distinguish romance and erotica as the former using sex to enhance the story, while the latter uses it to titillate. Of course, genre-benders gonna bend.) A good sex scene can reveal important details about a character. For example, if on the receiving end of a sexual advance, how does a character react? Is s/he scared, excited, angry? Don't each of these reactions suggest different qualities in a character or hint at background? If seducing, does the character rush to the main event, or kiss, caress, lock eyes, stroke hair, etc.? Is the character a giving or selfish lover? Does s/he focus on his/her partner's reactions or their own sensations? What about a timid character taking charge in a sexual encounter? Or an aggressive character relinquishing control? These are subtleties that are more likely to be missed than noted, but they matter.
Sex scenes in popular entertainment often tend to play out mechanically, so this concept that "it's all the same," "token," etc. is not unfounded, but don't fool yourself: sex can be a dialogue as much a fight can be, or even actual speech. Take, for example, the scene in High Fidelity when Laura asks Rob to make her feel anything other the hurt of losing her father. That scene between them spoke volumes, don't you think?
Regarding plot, consider that romance itself can be a sub-plot, the physical consummation of which is often the climax (pardon the pun). Doesn't it matter how it's resolved? This notion that we shouldn't see how it happens -- perhaps it's private, taboo, "icky," what-have-you -- is selectively applied. These same views subjectively color the topics of much artfully-constructed material, yet few of us in comparison would rush to stifle depictions of non-sexual material (of the blood and guts variety, for example). The point is that if this material has something worthwhile to say in such a scene, setting aside those knee-jerk reactions can be rewarding. Sex scenes can add value to a work.
That all said, I'm not convinced that Dragon Age really has something worthwhile to say in a sex scene. I may stand corrected, of course, but the sex scenes in DAO unfolding similarly regardless of the characters involved don't offer much in the way of characterization. I'm a bit rusty on DA2 (had a few playthroughs with no romance), so maybe there are some nuances there that add some value, but I don't recall.
To answer the topic's question, I would welcome sex scenes that develop a character (or characters), if possible. Failing that, I don't much care if we get a generic montage or a fade-to-black. If they're going to go "token," then yes, we're all (or maybe "most") familiar with doing the deed, and can take or leave a hodgepodge of Cosmopolitan's 10 Steamiest Positions in 30 seconds in robotic video game glory. If the sex scene isn't going to add much to characterization, then I'm more interested in the quality of action and dialogue focused on the relationship and how it can enhance both the characters and the story as a whole.
Okay honest question.
Given how DA series works with characterization and character development happening before the love scene what exactly would an explicit love scene add to any of the romances? As in something we don't/couldn't figure out otherwise.
We know Alistair's a virgin (we also know via Zev's banter that he has very low stamina XD). I'm not denying that explicit sex scenes can add to other stories cause it can. But what about DA would've been enhanced by such scenes more than what we already got? (Though DAO really needed straight FTB god those thousand yard stares).
And of course the typical would that addition be worth the loss of resources somewhere else?
Edit: This is directed in general not towards the above.
peferablely 1. with some pillow talk after but I wouldn't mind 3.
2 and 4 mean I'm skiping the scene or romances altogether.
totally of topic but Rixatrix that is a impressive wall of text.
Guest_Fandango_*
I'm all for a little titillation in my popular entertainment, though wouldn't want to see Inquisition skew that content in favour of a single demographic. That said, I'd rather do without sex scenes in my videogames.
peferablely 1. with some pillow talk after but I wouldn't mind 3.
2 and 4 mean I'm skiping the scene or romances altogether.
totally of topic but Rixatrix that is a impressive wall of text.
Haha, I should have gone into construction.
I have noticed that people who defend graphic depictions of sex tend to constantly bring up the depiction of violence, but I think this easily leads to a sort of strawman.
1) Lots of people who don't like graphic sex also don't like graphic violence.
2) It's questionable whether the average depiction of violence is graphic. In Dragon Age, your PC can end a fight looking like someone poured a bucket of blood over your head but there's little indication that they've been harmed or felt even a moment of pain. Likewise, enemies leave intact, unharmed bodies. You don't see where you've sliced open their gut, chopped off their limb, or horribly burnt them.
Ah, if this is directed toward my post, I don't disagree with either of your points. My post concerned whether graphic scenes can add value in general, which I believe that they can, not whether they should be excluded. They're not necessary in either case, but they can be used to reveal details about character. That said, Dragon Age's depictions of violence or sex don't add artistic value for me, but that doesn't necessitate their exclusion, in my opinion.
Full frontal male nudity is death.
Not sure what you mean by that.
I think full frontal male nudity would look a bit silly in games because I can only imagine how bad a poorly rendered penis would look, but then I also think any breasts I've seen in games look a bit silly because they don't tend to be rendered well.
It's hard enough for games to get basic things like eyes and hands right so asking for properly rendered genitalia seems like a bit of a reach.
I'm not even sure I'd like to see my companions genitalia. Could I look at Iron Bull the same way again? (if he were a romance option)
I much prefer more subtle approach to nudity.
Origins' ones were so embarassing and DAII had a couple that were well done. I'd prefer a fade to black. Any of the DAII ones were good, so I would be happy with some of the same ilk. Perhaps a bit more choice, I suppose.
My argument isn't "they show violence, sex should be ok". My argument is "they've shown nudity before in a negative light, why can't they show it in a positive light?"
Why is the Broodmother ok, but Morrigan has to put on a bra? Why can we show breasts to disgust and horrify, but not to titillate?
Nudity can be used for a variety of purposes. To titillate, to show vulnerability, to show savagery, to show innocence, to disgust, and sometimes, simply because a scene logically calls for a character to be naked. Out of all those options, I find it disturbing that the only one Bioware seems alright with portraying is using it as a grossout factor. I think it speaks volumes about modern society's view of the human body and sexuality, and nothing it says is good.
While I do have my preferences (looking at you #3), I just want there to be no double standards. For example female nudity / male underwear, or exlicit MF sex scene / FTB for FF and MM sex scenes.
I also agree that DA doesn't need to shy away from nudity, and agree with much of what Former_Fiend says.
It should be either 3 or 4, we're all adults here. If you don't like it, then just skip the scene, wouldn't be much different than No. 1 would it? Everyone wins, except the weirdos who want 2.
I don't play Dragon Age for sex scenes. If I wanted to play a game for sex scenes I will play an eroge.
The point is you don't need the sex scenes to understand the plot or the characters. Of course the book would not serve the same purpose if you took the sex scenes out, because its purpose is to be erotic. But the plot would not actually change at all, and neither would the characterisation, because the plot and the characterisation do not actually rely on graphic sex scenes in order to make sense.
I don't really give a **** if people want to see pixel knockers. What I want is for them to just be damn well honest about it, rather than trying to couch their desires in 'maturity' when, in fact, there is nothing inherently 'mature' about nudity at all. If anything, this obsession with nudity is shallow and juvenile.
To reiterate: the act of including nudity doesn't bother me. The act of clamouring specifically for female nudity (under the guise of making the game more 'mature') does bother me very much, because it is sexist and dishonest and not mature at all.
OK, so you're attacking a straw man. Because I've never yet taken a position on the central topic of the thread -- I haven't said yet whether the game should include sex scenes (although so far the games have done so, and I haven't had a problem with that, it is true), nor how they should be depicted.
To tell honest truth, that 2nd matter in games 1 & 2 has always been kind of irrelevant, because as you might be aware, at least if you play on PC, there exist a number of mods whose precise purpose is to change the presence and appearance of nudity in the game, and how the sex scenes are depicted. Obviously, it would be dishonest to disagree that most move in the direction of greater explicitness. So, if you're not satisfied with what the developers have provided in this area, there are lots of people who are willing to give you a more .... satisfying, experience. Thus, tbh, I really don't engage the 2nd debate, as the existence of mods has always allowed people to tailor this to their taste. Indeed, some would argue there are almost an unhealthy number of mods in this area, but that is a different question, and I think relates to aspects of human nature we prefer to hide or not discuss, but the data support. 
It may be a lot harder to do mods for DAI ... which could change that very equation ... but we digress.
I was only talking about this one question that you engaged by saying that the presence of sex scenes in a work of literature has nothing to do with its plot and characterization. I suppose, but not if your book is about themes like sexual awakening, or sexual freedom. Of course it doesn't have to describe those explicitly, but it might be a little bit like writing a book about the horrors of war, and then leaving details like headless or limbless bodies out, or doing as some people have argued (and I would vehemently disagree with) and taking the word "N**ger" out of every copy of Huckleberry Finn.
If the plot is about a person's sexual awakening, then sexual events ARE part of the PLOT.
Now, BTW, if we're going to discuss something else, which is: have the sexual content of most video games been pitched at the tastes of a certain demographic which is not representative of the population as a whole, has most of it been terribly sexist by showing nude bodies of women but leaving out those of men, is a lot of it "power/conquest fantasy" based for the "Bond hero," and most importantly has the writing for those scenes been closer to a very bad Penthouse Letter or the most amateur of sexual fanfic, rather than aiming for DH Lawrence, well, my answer to all of those questions are yes.
So I guess I would say my answer here is what Candida Royalle says to the porn industry, though I have been treating erotica and porn separately (although there is also an interesting discussion about where the dividing line is there, and we could discuss it) ... she tries to answer the way a lot of porn is made, which from her POV is badly, and make better porn - for both women and men, for couples to enjoy and not just teen males to masturbate to. But to people who say there should be no porn because of the bad ways in which it depicts sex and sensuality, her answer would be to make better porn.
So I guess, leaping now from analogy, if your point is that the sex scenes in video games have mostly been done solely to titillate young post-adolescents, have been done poorly and shallowly, and are incredibly sexist in the way they work, why, yes, I agree on all those points. This is also separate from the "uncanny valley" problem of whether animated, moving 3D rendered humans at this point in time can interact in simulated sexuality (however explicit you want to be in depicting it) in any way that is believable and not silly. (I would say the answer there is iffy, if only because it's a problem limited resources in the world of 3D animation have been devoted to, for obvious reasons.) On the other hand, I would say that might be an argument not for ridding all video games of sex scenes, but trying to figure out a way to do them better.
Now: we come to the $64,000 question. Could Bioware do such scenes? Maybe, but I agree with people who say they never have. Are they capable of it? Well, I hate being unfair to them but IMHO, not unless a certain design philosophy changes, but from my POV, that philosophy relates to larger matters than just how sensuality is depicted. That philosophy relates to what they are trying to make, and their audience.
1) are they just trying to make Space Invaders, Super Mario Kart, or something that aspires only to be a game, and not art, or like a great foreign film or great graphic novel or a great piece of literature? (See Roger Ebert's famous column on why no video games are worthy of being called art.) If you have a writing team, it strikes me that you are trying to create something that aspires to being like literature. But then, I have to confess, other design decisions they've made recently don't make sense from that point of view.
2) is their game audience solely what most people consider "the core gaming audience" -- young post-adolescent males between around 18 and 24 -- or is it people outside of that frame?
As you may have noticed, I view 1) and 2) as relating to issues that go far beyond how sex is depicted.
Your conclusion does not follow. I can think of plenty of sex scenes in books that are about characterization, not titillation. I don't suppose you've ever read any Updike, have you?
If you're just making the claim that such scenes are never necessary, you're right. But what of it?
The word "necessary" is a bit problematic in literature. It may not also be "necessary" for the plot (in a strict sense) to describe the features of Minas Tirith when the characters first arrive at it in Lord of the Rings, like for example how it dazzles in the sunlight, but Tolkien spends some time on how visually incredible the great fortress is. Since literature needs to be both evocative and plot-focused, that it occasionally takes time to describe what characters are seeing could be, strictly speaking, 'unnecessary' to the plot, but still making it a better story.
That’s not the same as this:
Movies, games, and books are full of scenes that you could remove and still understand the plot or characters.
BTW, there's a whole genre of fiction besides what is explicitly marked as erotic fiction that usually features sex scenes in a story setting.
Romance novels. BTW, because I long listened to society saying that "they are only written for women, and thus only women should read them" as well as the usual view that "they are cheap, tawdry, and never written well," kind of on the level of pulp sci-fi, I never read one.
Until I once did. And discovered two fascinating things. Some are written pretty well, of course "well" being one of those things we might not agree on. Secondly, the sex scenes in some are about pretty darn racy and steamy. There is no (literary) fading to black. I'm shocked those novels don't contain a stronger age warning.
I must admit one thing -- those Harlequin novels would not work the way their authors intended, I think, if the scenes were merely summarized. Anymore than a great war novel would work if they said "the Germans and Americans clashed on the field of battle. The Americans prevailed. The end."
I consider all romance scenes Bioware has created so far as just foreplay and that the actual 'sex' happens when it fades to black. That's why in general the way these scenes have been done don't bother me.
That is why for me, ME3 has done it the best. Only thing they could have done to make it perfect was when at the cuddle scene, they should have been naked like the Liara one. Use of smart camera angle.
Origins' ones were so embarassing and DAII had a couple that were well done. I'd prefer a fade to black. Any of the DAII ones were good, so I would be happy with some of the same ilk. Perhaps a bit more choice, I suppose.
The music did not make it better either lol.
I don't really care about the act itself all that much other than some well-angled shots so you get the idea. ME3's Liara scene is a good example. Getting something like amorous embraces, kissing leading into a fade to black and the sort are perfectly fine to me, but what I focus on mainly is the LI-specific dialogue, like flirting/jokes, discussions on love (and jealousy when applicable), etc..
I have noticed that people who defend graphic depictions of sex tend to constantly bring up the depiction of violence, but I think this easily leads to a sort of strawman.
1) Lots of people who don't like graphic sex also don't like graphic violence.
2) It's questionable whether the average depiction of violence is graphic. In Dragon Age, your PC can end a fight looking like someone poured a bucket of blood over your head but there's little indication that they've been harmed or felt even a moment of pain. Likewise, enemies leave intact, unharmed bodies. You don't see where you've sliced open their gut, chopped off their limb, or horribly burnt them.
Dunno. I do think it's interesting that there are people who are quite fine with them working on making kill animations as visually and audibly ... titillating as possible, and would never view a long amount of work on making better kill animations as a waste of resources ... but then view the sex scenes as ephemeral, and wouldn't want to discuss any way on making those better.
Some of us would be fine with the kill animations taken out altogether. But then it's interesting to see who would jump to defending from their loss or removal.
When I was thinking about media that do graphically explicit violence in ways that are distasteful, I really didn't have DA in mind. On the other hand, I did have the recent Ahhhhhnold film, Sabotage. There is a scene where someone has been nailed and staked to a ceiling and sliced open, and their entrails are of course leaking out onto the floor. Now, to me it's an interesting question not just whether that scene should have been there (hey, if you're discussing the graphic violent retaliations Mexican drug cartels sometimes do), but whether the camera needed to focus on the gore for a full minute, as it appeared to do. That movie must have had one of the most immense fake blood and fake internal organs budget I have ever seen in a recent film.
Either no sex scene, or sex scenes involving nudity. Clothed sex allways felt odd.
The music did not make it better either lol.
I don't really care about the act itself all that much other than some well-angled shots so you get the idea. ME3's Liara scene is a good example. Getting something like amorous embraces, kissing leading into a fade to black and the sort are perfectly fine to me, but what I focus on mainly is the LI-specific dialogue, like flirting/jokes, discussions on love (and jealousy when applicable), etc..
The music in Origins was so freaking funny I could never keep a straight face during those scenes.
I actually liked the music in Isabela's scene in DA2. Because it fit the scene a bit.
But, yes, I really like the lead-into being nice and the follow up because the same.
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