981 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

Why did the reapers need Sovereign to open the Dark Relay in the Citadel if the Catalyst has lived there the whole time? Why didn't the Star-Child open the Dark Relay himself? What was the point of anything that Sovereign did in the first game?

 

This is a question that's bugged me ever since it came to my mind over a year ago and it's become one of the biggest unsung plot-holes of the entire ending. The armor-piercing question that has me conclude that the Star-Child and Sovereign cannot co-exist in the same story with their roles.

 

I'd posted a challenge to the forum several months ago to see if anyone could find a valid, cohesive, in-universe explanation. There were a few good answers, but ultimately they just didn't work. Any explanation for how the Star-Child doesn't contradict Sovereign's role comes down to one of 2 things:

 

A) Star-Child can't open the Relay to Dark Space.

 

The above statement makes no sense in the context of the Star-Child's explanation or anything that we know about him. The kid designed and built both the mass relays and the citadel. He also lives on the Citadel and it has been "part of him" for many billions of years, likely in a relationship similar to EDI's connection to the Normandy.

 

It makes no sense for the Star-Child to create the Citadel, Mass Relays, Keepers and Reapers, put them in a tightly nit cycle meant to solve a problem, and then purposefully lock himself out of having any control over any of it. Even if Star-Child can't directly activate anything, there's nothing to suggest that he couldn't correct the Keeper signal and have them open the Dark Relay when they're supposed to.

 

Then there's the fact that Star-Child shuts off the Crucible in the Reject Ending, activates the elevator that brought Shepard to the Decision Chamber and presumably altered the environment of the Chamber so that Shepard wouldn't die from oxygen deprivation.

 

Star-Child won't open the Relay to Dark Space.

 

Considering how convinced he is that synthetics will always destroy organics and that his "solution" is the only way to "stop" synthetics, it also makes no sense for him to have decided not to open the relay and sat back to see what happens. You're telling me that after thousands of cycles of extinction, he now becomes curious about whether organics and synthetics won't wipe each other out?

 

Cold-Logic leaves no room for potentially-fatal curious, or else he would never have gone to such extremes in the first place. He does view his genocidal reapers as a "cleansing fire" after all. Why would you let the fire be inhibited if you believe that you need it? This also takes into account the Ilos Scientist sabotage which the Star-Child likely would've been aware of, but he evidently just sat back and watched it happen.

 

So yeah. I'm still convinced that Sovereign and Star-Child can't exist in the same story. One has to go.

 

And considering that Sovereign pretty much shot the whole plot into motion and the Star-Child is a last minute addition meant to invoke "speculation for everyone", it's clear as to who should be removed from the story.

[Mcfly616]

Because the Catalyst has no physical capability. It's thralls are how it functions. It is nothing but an omnipresent consciousness. The keepers signal was F'd up by the Protheans....hence why it cannot use them to open the relay. It makes sense just fine. Actually, it's quite smart to have layers of deception. Have the pawns do the dirty work.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

[Excella Gionne]

Since the Protheans sabotaged the reaper signal that would signal the Keepers to activate the Citadel Relay, Sovereign had to come in and made sure Saren activated the relay manually. If you completed Chorban's side quest, he'll e-mail you in ME2 about this.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Well, no. I'm pretty sure Sovereign needed Saren to insure that the arms didn't close and to maintain control of the station. Sovereign himself was uploading code to the Keepers directly to fix the problem. 

So why couldn't Star Brat do it?

[Sir DeLoria]

Star Brat was too busy with his legos.

[Farangbaa]

The more you think about a story, the more it starts to stink.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I find it odd as well. The most likely answer is that like many other aspects of the ending this implication was not considered and by the time the EC came around the damage was already done. So, unfortunately there is no answer and we have to make up our own; however, even this has proven difficult as every imagined scenario ends up with the Catalyst being flat out dumb or seemingly out of character.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Starchild didn't exist until Mass Effect 3, and that's why they needed Sovereign to do open the relay in ME1. It's that simple. Starchild was an ass pull... A pseudo-DEM at the end of the story. "The Intelliigence" didn't exist until Leviathan DLC. The more you look at the plot, the more holes you will find. Mass Effect was never about the plot. It was about the characters. That's why we kept coming back for more, and they ruined the entire thing with the third installment. They could have milked this cash cow for another three games just by having Shepard find new ways of stopping the reapers from invading the galaxy. No one ever really cared about the reapers and fighting them -- well maybe a small minority did. The vast majority cared about the characters.

[KaiserShep]

Starchild didn't exist until Mass Effect 3, and that's why they needed Sovereign to do open the relay in ME1. It's that simple.

 

Considering other things that happened in the trilogy, I would say that this is 100% correct. Any details on the motive of the reapers was up in the air halfway through the trilogy. We got foreshadowing of the dark energy plot, but it was abandoned before it materialized into anything substantial.

[von uber]

More to the point, if it was hanging around then Shirley it knows everything the galaxy is planning from intercepting all correspondence etc, including the crucible.
It also means vigil is wrong by saying that through the capture of the citadel they found out everything about their tactics and empire because the catalyst would already know.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Because the Catalyst has no physical capability. It's thralls are how it functions. It is nothing but an omnipresent consciousness. The keepers signal was F'd up by the Protheans....hence why it cannot use them to open the relay. It makes sense just fine. Actually, it's quite smart to have layers of deception. Have the pawns do the dirty work.

 

It seemed to operate that elevator to his chamber just fine. It also seemed to have no problem turning off the crucible if Shepard refuses. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's in more control than you think it is.

 

@OP: My opinion? Bad writing mixed with poor plotting.

[themikefest]

Since the Protheans sabotaged the reaper signal that would signal the Keepers to activate the Citadel Relay, Sovereign had to come in and made sure Saren activated the relay manually. If you completed Chorban's side quest, he'll e-mail you in ME2 about this.

You still get an email from him even if you don't complete the side quest.

 

ME3 is for the new player so what happened in ME1/ME2 never happened. The games don't exist. ME3 is the trilogy.

[KaiserShep]

You still get an email from him even if you don't complete the side quest.

 

ME3 is for the new player so what happened in ME1/ME2 never happened. The games don't exist. ME3 is the trilogy.

 

Does the time you get the email then depend on whether or not you did the quest? I scanned all of the keepers, and got the message in ME2, but not in ME3.

 

As for the second point, well...yes and no. The game makes a bit of a compromise since it's likely that there would be an influx of people who are brand new to the franchise, but after playing an import and non-import playthrough, the differences can add up quite a lot for those who actually invested in the entire trilogy. And, of course, certain outcomes are simply not available if you're playing ME3 completely isolated as a new game.

[themikefest]

Does the time you get the email then depend on whether or not you did the quest? I scanned all of the keepers, and got the message in ME2, but not in ME3.

 

In my current trilogy playthrough, I got the email in ME2 even though I only scanned 5 keepers. I've never seen a message related to the quest in ME3 at all.

[Mcfly616]

Well, no. I'm pretty sure Sovereign needed Saren to insure that the arms didn't close and to maintain control of the station. Sovereign himself was uploading code to the Keepers directly to fix the problem.
So why couldn't Star Brat do it?

Sovereign, Saren and the Keepers are it's thralls. They are an extension of itself. It was trying to do it. It failed.

[Mcfly616]

It seemed to operate that elevator to his chamber just fine. It also seemed to have no problem turning off the crucible if Shepard refuses. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's in more control than you think it is.
 

controlling the elevator to its chamber is the same as a Mass Relay? Okay....

[MassivelyEffective0730]

controlling the elevator to its chamber is the same as a Mass Relay? Okay....

 

You said it didn't control anything. That said, it's the elevator on a giant Mass Relay; it must have some control over said Mass Relay to do that.

[Mcfly616]

You said it didn't control anything. That said, it's the elevator on a giant Mass Relay; it must have some control over said Mass Relay to do that.

no I didn't. I said it controls it's thralls. Notice that room the elevator is in....its in the Keeper tunnels.

[KaiserShep]

In the end, it's not really worth thinking too deeply about. If we're to retroactively add the Catalyst into ME1, then it simply had direct access to the entire Citadel through its keeper thralls, and the hold over them was severed by the Protheans. Like the Shadow Broker's arrogance blinding him to the possibility of someone else gaining direct access to his network, the Catalyst did not anticipate that someone would undermine its sole method of controlling the station, and so it had no backup plan in case the keepers' role in its scheme was removed, which then brings the desperate plan involving Sovereign. It's a good thing Shepard happened to pass out in the right spot. Had (s)he passed out right next to Anderson, I guess the Catalyst would have to project himself in that room instead.

[Mcfly616]

Pretty much...

[Kel Riever]

That's easy.  Since there would be no ME3 without ME1, I'd boot the Catalyst.

 

But I didn't really need to justify that inside of the realm of the story, since the Catalyst, supposedly part of the story, didn't reference the story either when it started talking....

[MassivelyEffective0730]

no I didn't. I said it controls it's thralls. Notice that room the elevator is in....its in the Keeper tunnels.

 

I thought the Catalyst couldn't control the keepers anymore (like you said) due to Prothean interference. So how would it be able to activate the elevator via the keepers? It'd have to be able to have some kind of control over the Citadel and its systems. And you never addressed how the Catalyst has the ability to deactivate the Crucible. It has a lot more power than you're giving it credit for. 

 

A little hole in your statement (actually a big one that undermines your entire attempt to rationalize and protect your argument).

 

I maintain mine, poor game planning mixed with bad writing on BW's part is responsible for this plot hole.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In the end, it's not really worth thinking too deeply about. If we're to retroactively add the Catalyst into ME1, then it simply had direct access to the entire Citadel through its keeper thralls, and the hold over them was severed by the Protheans. Like the Shadow Broker's arrogance blinding him to the possibility of someone else gaining direct access to his network, the Catalyst did not anticipate that someone would undermine its sole method of controlling the station, and so it had no backup plan in case the keepers' role in its scheme was removed, which then brings the desperate plan involving Sovereign. It's a good thing Shepard happened to pass out in the right spot. Had (s)he passed out right next to Anderson, I guess the Catalyst would have to project himself in that room instead.

 

I'm not one who likes hand-waiving things in stories. If I have to hand-waive something, then it means the writers screwed up. Which they did the moment they decided to make a trilogy of games without planning ahead for where they wanted to go with the story. Making it up as you go along is a really crappy M.O, and it makes me think less of them professionally. 

[Vortex13]

Another thing to consider if we look at the bigger picture is the Reapers pre and post Catalyst; or to zoom in a little bit, the Reapers pre and post ME 3.

 

Sovereign is shown to have an active contempt for organic life, and Harbinger is shown to take an almost sadistic pleasure in torturing and killing people; yet according to the Catalyst the Reapers are created only to continue the cycle; robotic servants carrying out the cold machine logic of the Intelligence's grand plan.

 

So which is it?

 

The actions and personalities of Sovereign and Harbinger seem to be in direct contrast to the whole 'cleansing fire' aspect that the Catalyst spouts off about. If the Reapers exist only to further the cycle, and everything done is in a cold, efficient, machine-like manner, then why even have the Reapers talk at all? Or at least, why show Harbinger taunting people trapped in stasis fields, people with no possibility of escape, or have the captured colonists liquified slowly, one at a time in full view of everyone else, if the Reapers are just carrying out their orders, and the galaxy is not at war with them?

 

These are supposedly just machines programed to do a specific task, not Cuthulu monsters that feed off fear and suffering.