981 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wow, you really don't get it.

 

Never did I say it foreshadowed the ending except for the choices you can make. Nevermind that you can contradict what this AI believes. Never did I say that it foreshadows the reaper's motive.

 

However, it does help build the universe and its themes, the fact is fact, that the conflict between organics and synthetics were established in the first game and its not only this quest, but learning of the Geth/Quarian conflict and dealing with a rogue VI that was really an AI experiment. ME3 builds of this theme by making the theme the Reapers motive.

 

This is not fan theory, this is Storytelling 101: Establishing Themes.

 

That's just silly. Storytelling 101 is about seizing the attention of your audience. It is about characters.

[txgoldrush]

That's just silly. Storytelling 101 is about seizing the attention of your audience. It is about characters.

Its also about other things like themes. like, you know, what the story is about.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Its also about other things like themes. like, you know, what the story is about.

 

Good thing BW didn't know what the story was about then!

[von uber]

Its also about other things like themes. like, you know, what the story is about.

Which they didn't really seem to know until half way though me3. Me2 could be easily removed and not affect me1 or 3, for example.

[AlexMBrennan]

And Arrival was not the rule of cool, it exists to thematically set up Mass Effect 3. the fact that Shepard cannot save everyone and may have to make decisions that cost the lives of others to achieve victory.

And what a good job it was that Shepard stopped the Reaper fleet from waltzing into citadel space... Before they had powered up in the end of ME2. They must have had a lot of faith in Harby's plan given that they scheduled their invasion way before he could have achieved anything.

[angol fear]

"It is exactly the same. You're using a conversation a lot of players have never even heard to bring about themes. If bioware did that, that was really bad."

 

Did you miss the point in my post where I mentioned other things other than this one sidequest? Nevermind I didn't even mention Saren's view of combining organics and synthetics.

Agree with you, this conversation was an interesting side quest to understand Mass Effect (I don't understand why there are people who never heard that conservation, did they play Mass Effect 1?). The most important clues were given aside the main quest from the beginning, and that why Bioware did a great job with the writing of the trilogy. The player who invested himself intellectually in the game was rewarded. The player who only played the game waiting all answers without thinking was disappointed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Agree with you, this conversation was an interesting side quest to understand Mass Effect (I don't understand why there are people who never heard that conservation, did they play Mass Effect 1?). The most important clues were given aside the main quest from the beginning, and that why Bioware did a great job with the writing of the trilogy. The player who invested himself intellectually in the game was rewarded. The player who only played the game waiting all answers without thinking was disappointed.

 

That's very insulting to players who did invest themselves intellectually in the franchise and didn't get rewarded (or feel rewarded). It's a no-true-scot fallacy to claim otherwise. I invested myself intellectually as well as emotionally, and I felt incredibly shorted by BW from the game. I felt that it insulted my intelligence.

 

If it's a small, tertiary line in a conversation back in ME1 that is so obscure to have most players not hear it, it's most likely a coincidental line of dialogue that happens to go with the ending theme. You're doing exactly what IT'ers do with this: You're taking an obscure line of dialogue that is tangentially related to the ending theme, and expressing it as proof of your theory. 

[Farangbaa]

That's very insulting to players who did invest themselves intellectually in the franchise and didn't get rewarded (or feel rewarded). It's a no-true-scot fallacy to claim otherwise. I invested myself intellectually as well as emotionally, and I felt incredibly shorted by BW from the game. I felt that it insulted my intelligence.

 

If it's a small, tertiary line in a conversation back in ME1 that is so obscure to have most players not hear it, it's most likely a coincidental line of dialogue that happens to go with the ending theme. You're doing exactly what IT'ers do with this: You're taking an obscure line of dialogue that is tangentially related to the ending theme, and expressing it as proof of your theory. 

 

And then calling others stupid for not doing so.

 

IT'ers and tx (the inverse IT guy) are kinda like Harbinger

 

"We are infinetly your greater, accept our truth" 

[huntrrz]

Try this - the Catalyst *could* have opened the Citadel relay, but it was caught in a logic trap in the same manner it had with the cycle. It had concluded eons before that taking any direct action risked revealing its existence, so it determined *never* to do that.

Set and Locked. The Catalyst may not be right, but it is consistent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Try this - the Catalyst *could* have opened the Citadel relay, but it was caught in a logic trap in the same manner it had with the cycle. It had concluded eons before that taking any direct action risked revealing its existence, so it determined *never* to do that.

Set and Locked. The Catalyst may not be right, but it is consistent.

 

That raises the logical issue of why it has determined to never show its presence. What happens if it does reveal its existence?

[Farangbaa]

That raises the logical issue of why it has determined to never show its presence. What happens if it does reveal its existence?

 

The Reapers realize they are the tools of a tool.

 

Remember Sovereign? I don't think he would've liked it very much to be an unknowing servant of a servant.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Reapers realize they are the tools of a tool.

 

Remember Sovereign? I don't think he would've liked it very much to be unknowing servant of a servant.

 

If the Catalyst was in control of Sovereign, why would the Catalyst care about what the Reapers think? It has the ability to control their mandate.

 

This is what BW has made: It's an inconsistency in their plot. A plot hole. The Reapers were autonomous prior to ME3. Now you learn they've been under the mandate of a complex AI this entire time. Which is rather inconsistent with their characterization; The AI doesn't really hate organics, it's just trying to stop them from killing themselves via synthetic life creations that go rogue. But Sovereign seems to legitimately despise organics. Harbinger in ME2 likes to screw with them with the intent to terrify and taunt them before a painful death, and it too has the same disdain for organic races that extends to include anything non-Reaper. Hell, the Catalysts mandate was to prevent organic and synthetic conflict. What do the Reapers under its control/mandate do? Incite conflict between organics and synthetics.

 

Suffice to say, it's a pretty underwhelming and contradictory climax for the story, and very poorly written and executed. The concept of the ending on its own is alright, but, in conjunction with the flaws mentioned, is a quasi-alien theme for the overall plot of Mass Effect. The theme of organic and synthetic conflict did indeed exist in Mass Effect, but it was never the central theme or idea of the series. To be honest, it changes as the series goes on, with several different themes presented not just in the trilogy itself, but in each individual game (minus ME2, which, while ideal in my opinion as the kind of game Mass Effect should always have been in regards to being a standalone tale or series of unrelated adventures including Commander Shepard, was tangentially related to the entire plot. Yeah, there was more than a lot of people give it credit for, but the story was admittedly weak as a part of a trilogy.)

[CrutchCricket]

That raises the logical issue of why it has determined to never show its presence. What happens if it does reveal its existence?

 

Absolutely nothing. Forget what it can or can't do to the Citadel. Once the Reapers are here they control the Citadel. They can close it (and protect it), they can shut the relays down, they can kill everybody. Once the harvest has begun, the holokid could project itself to every living thing going "suck it" and they couldn't do ****. Assuming of course the Reapers don't derp out and leave the Citadel in the hands of organics and the relay network open for 90% of the war- oh wait.

 

This is one of the major reasons the holokid is a complete fail- it's not necessary for anything except to take pity on us and hand us its colored I win* buttons.

 

The Citadel- it's a trap regardless of whether the kid's on it or not. Being the crown jewel and key component of both their cycle system and their technology it's absolute lunacy for the Reapers to not have redundant means of taking control of it. For God's sake I have more control over my porn than they do over their means to completing their sole purpose in life.

The Reapers- we were just fine with mecha Cthulu being independent willful consciousnesses, we didn't need an overlord. And even if we do in order for Control to make sense, Harbinger will do just fine.

The purpose- as dumb as this synthetic-organic drivel is, it still doesn't need the holokid.  Leviathans built an AI to stop AIs (lololol) it yo dawg'd them and took their form in reverence as did the Reapers that came after (meta-precedent with geth). Meet Harbinger.

 

But wait, what if it's supposed to be a friendly face to present us with the problem and the choices to solve it? Surely we wouldn't listen to Harbinger right? OK fine, and what's his replacement?

 

"I control the Reapers"

 

 

How does that help? It just said it controls the Reapers i.e everything that's wrong with our lives at the moment. Why the hell would you listen to anything that says it controls the things currently melting everything you hold dear? You could put ****** Kermit the frog in that chamber and if he said "I control the Reapers" I still wouldn't trust it. Friendly face my ass. It doesn't even have a face.

 

*with more devious fine print than selling your soul to Microsoft. EA

[Iakus]

Please.

 

There are many things in ME1 that come up pretty important in ME3. You might want to play "signal tracking"  and "colony of the dead" in ME1 again. He did build on what came before. that is a fact.

 

Once again, you are another critic firing criticism from the hip instead of going by the facts.

 

 

Cherrypicked facts, given you're citing optional side quests rather than stuff from teh main story, which you dismiss as unimportant.

 

 

And Arrival was not the rule of cool, it exists to thematically set up Mass Effect 3. the fact that Shepard cannot save everyone and may have to make decisions that cost the lives of others to achieve victory.

Shepard made no decisions of import in Arrival, let alone decisions that cost lives.  Arrival only showed that Shepard would be railroaded into a no-win scenerio, regardless of choice.  Either kill hundreds of thousands of people or "rocks fall, everyone dies".  It's only saving grace was that SHepard could express regret afterwards.  ME3 denies us even that.

 

Poor storytelling for an RPG.  Bioware should be ashamed.

[Iakus]

That's very insulting to players who did invest themselves intellectually in the franchise and didn't get rewarded (or feel rewarded). It's a no-true-scot fallacy to claim otherwise. I invested myself intellectually as well as emotionally, and I felt incredibly shorted by BW from the game. I felt that it insulted my intelligence.

 

If it's a small, tertiary line in a conversation back in ME1 that is so obscure to have most players not hear it, it's most likely a coincidental line of dialogue that happens to go with the ending theme. You're doing exactly what IT'ers do with this: You're taking an obscure line of dialogue that is tangentially related to the ending theme, and expressing it as proof of your theory. 

 

Careful.  Talk like that could get you labeled as an "entitled whiner" wanting a story that's consistent and makes sense

[CronoDragoon]

This is what BW has made: It's an inconsistency in their plot. A plot hole. The Reapers were autonomous prior to ME3. Now you learn they've been under the mandate of a complex AI this entire time. Which is rather inconsistent with their characterization; The AI doesn't really hate organics, it's just trying to stop them from killing themselves via synthetic life creations that go rogue. But Sovereign seems to legitimately despise organics. Harbinger in ME2 likes to screw with them with the intent to terrify and taunt them before a painful death, and it too has the same disdain for organic races that extends to include anything non-Reaper. 

 

It's fine if you presume that the Catalyst programmed the mandate to harvest in but left everything else alone in the "ascension" process. Why would he leave everything else alone? Because it fits with his desire to preserve the "culture" of each species as much as possible.

 

Hell, the Catalysts mandate was to prevent organic and synthetic conflict. What do the Reapers under its control/mandate do? Incite conflict between organics and synthetics.

 

We don't actually know what the Catalyst's mandate was, as several are sort of given. If the Catalyst's mandate was to preserve organic life then there's no contradiction.

 

 

The theme of organic and synthetic conflict did indeed exist in Mass Effect, but it was never the central theme or idea of the series.

 

Eh, debatable. It's certainly more relevant than the awful dark energy plot. Most of the ending problems come down to execution rather than the concept, I think. Although they would really need to work out and make explicit why the Catalyst doesn't open the relay himself in ME1.

[Kel Riever]

Agree with you, this conversation was an interesting side quest to understand Mass Effect (I don't understand why there are people who never heard that conservation, did they play Mass Effect 1?). The most important clues were given aside the main quest from the beginning, and that why Bioware did a great job with the writing of the trilogy. The player who invested himself intellectually in the game was rewarded. The player who only played the game waiting all answers without thinking was disappointed.

 

Dear hypocrisy...

 

I will make a note that wanting a complete game that makes sense and doesn't contradict itself = not thinking.

 

Thinking = doing BioWare's job for them and being willfully blind to criticism.  Or in other words, joining a cult.

 

Thank you hypocrisy.  I understand why the saying is that 'you have no bounds' now.

 

 

Edit:  I imagine the current fanbase of angol fear's greatest ideals looking something like the crowd in this clip"

 

[huntrrz]

That raises the logical issue of why it has determined to never show its presence. What happens if it does reveal its existence?

General principle. If organics realized there was an AI on the Citadel they might take countermeasures against it. Therefore, never take any overt action.

The Catalyst has demonstrated that once it reaches a conclusion it is unwilling or incapable of challenging it, so it's easily conceivable that its own logic prevented from acting when/if it was able.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

My god people, the catalyst didn't open the relay because the writing team didn't plan out the whole trilogy. 

That's why, at least in reality. 

Palpatine was just a figurehead, Uncle Owen was Obi-Wan's brother, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister. 

If you really think the ME trilogy was planned out beforehand, then you know nothing. 

[Kel Riever]

My god people, the catalyst didn't open the relay because the writing team didn't plan out the whole trilogy. 

That's why, at least in reality. 

Palpatine was just a figurehead, Uncle Owen was Obi-Wan's brother, and Leia wasn't Luke's sister. 

If you really think the ME trilogy was planned out beforehand, then you know nothing. 

 

 

How dare you insult the writing team! 

[CronoDragoon]

My god people, the catalyst didn't open the relay because the writing team didn't plan out the whole trilogy. 

 

No ****.

 

But this is a discussion board and that explanation is worthless to discuss. So we find other more interesting debates to waste time at work.

[Iakus]

No ****.

 

But this is a discussion board and that explanation is worthless to discuss. So we find other more interesting debates to waste time at work.

 

It may be an explanation, but it's hardly an excuse. 

[CronoDragoon]

It may be an explanation, but it's hardly an excuse. 

 

Who's using it as an excuse?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

General principle. If organics realized there was an AI on the Citadel they might take countermeasures against it. Therefore, never take any overt action.

The Catalyst has demonstrated that once it reaches a conclusion it is unwilling or incapable of challenging it, so it's easily conceivable that its own logic prevented from acting when/if it was able.

 

There'd be no purpose to this: Once it acted, the Reapers would come streaming through the Relay. What kind of countermeasures would the organics be able to do? Hell, what purpose would the Keepers even serve beyond general maintenance? The AI keeping itself hidden until the Reapers arrive is plausible and it makes sense. However, revealing itself upon the beginning of the current cycle of extermination to activate the Citadel isn't a problem either; It wouldn't even be 'revealing' itself, so to speak, since it would be the exact same as how the Keepers work. Any race on the Citadel would have no time to react, since the Reapers would be among them and exterminating them.

 

The second is reality of course, but I'd imagine that if was entirely bound to its mandate, it wouldn't have come up with the Synthesis solution.

[AlanC9]

There'd be no purpose to this: Once it acted, the Reapers would come streaming through the Relay. What kind of countermeasures would the organics be able to do? Hell, what purpose would the Keepers even serve beyond general maintenance? The AI keeping itself hidden until the Reapers arrive is plausible and it makes sense. However, revealing itself upon the beginning of the current cycle of extermination to activate the Citadel isn't a problem either; It wouldn't even be 'revealing' itself, so to speak, since it would be the exact same as how the Keepers work. Any race on the Citadel would have no time to react, since the Reapers would be among them and exterminating them.

 

I concur.

 

The simplest conclusion is that the Catalyst physically can't activate the relay. We already know that prothean scientists committed unspecified acts of sabotage on the Citadel, but that's it. There's no con to retcon about what happened there.