981 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I corrected you by saying the keepers were only affected in that they would no longer receive the signal from soveriegn. They only respond to the citadel. And...unfortunatly...in ME3 we find the Catalyst IS Starjob and Starjob IS the citadel. and (from what we know from ME1) the keepers only respond to the citadel because (as the video tells you) the scientists worked to sever the ability for the keepers to receive the signal from soveriegn (nothing more) then used the conduit to deploy it.

That is all. Anything more is headcanon or speculation.

And my point was that your "correction" isn't based on any actual knowledge. If all you're saying is that we were told that the keepers were only responding to the Citadel, fine. But we were told that by someone who didn't actually know what happened. He wasn't there, and never talked to anyone who was there about what happened there.

[Ithurael]

And my point was that your "correction" isn't based on any actual knowledge. If all you're saying is that we were told that the keepers were only responding to the Citadel, fine. But we were told that by someone who didn't actually know what happened. He wasn't there.

 

The bolded part is what i am saying. Post sabotage the keepers only respond to the citadel/catalyst/starjar.

 

The sabotage only affected the keepers ability to receive the signal from soveriegn.

 

My correction is based verbatim on what vigil stated in the narrative. The only thing Vigil would not have know was the following:

- Were they successful

- How they died

 

The former was proven by the lacking of a reaper invasion in this cycle. The latter was not proven and is just its speculation. However, it would have know exactly what the scientists were doing while they were on illos.

[AlanC9]

 
The sabotage only affected the keepers ability to receive the signal from soveriegn.
 
My correction is based verbatim on what vigil stated in the narrative. The only thing Vigil would not have know was the following:
- Were they successful
- How they died
 

This works if it's conceptually impossible for the scientists to have learned something on the Citadel that they didn't know before traveling to the Citadel, or for them to have done anything there that they hadn't planned on doing before they went. I don't see why that assumption should be made.

[Mcfly616]

The bolded part is what i am saying. Post sabotage the keepers only respond to the citadel/catalyst/starjar.
 
The sabotage only affected the keepers ability to receive the signal from soveriegn.
 

you do realize that the Catalyst controls Sovereign, don't you?

[SwobyJ]

Lies! Sovereign is king!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wait, what? 

 

Catalyst: Hey Sovereign, this place is crawling with organics. I think we're ready to reap. Send me the signal so I can send the signal to the keepers to open the relay.

 

Sovereign: Okay Catboy.

 

Catalyst: What the f***? I got your signal that the galaxy is ready and sent out the signal to the keepers, but they're not responding. And don't call me Catboy.

 

Sovereign: Let me think a bit. I'll have to come up with something. 

 

Catalyst: Hurry because they might surpass the Protheans pretty soon.

 

Sovereign: I might have something, and we might not even have to reap.

 

Catalyst: What?

 

Sovereign: Rachni. I'll sour the song of the queens and lead the hapless organics to the mass relay. They'll spread like wildfire through the galaxy and wipe 'em all out.

 

Catalyst: What about my directive?

 

Sovereign: They're organic.

 

Catalyst: Cool.

 

(Rachni Wars)

 

Catalyst: Hey Sovvy, it looks like the Salarians uplifted the Krogan. There goes your plans. 

 

Sovereign: I wouldn't be so certain. It looks like the Krogan are rebelling. They're spreading through the galaxy, and they're pretty dumb, too, so we won't have to worry too much.

 

Catalyst: Well that didn't work. You're going to have to find a way of opening the relay for me.

 

Sovereign: Hey, how come you never had yourself connected directly to the Mass Relay when you had control over the keepers?

 

Catalyst: Shut up! Just do your job! I control you. 

 

Sovereign: What happened to that 'we are each a nation, independent, and free of weakness,' and all that rot?

 

Catalyst: I lied.

[txgoldrush]

you do realize that the Catalyst controls Sovereign, don't you?

Actually Sovereign was part of the Catalyst, all reapers are a part of the Catalyst......the Catalyst tells you he embodies the collective intelligence of all Reapers and suggest he is more than an AI, like Shepard is more than an animal.

[txgoldrush]

I concur.

 

The simplest conclusion is that the Catalyst physically can't activate the relay. We already know that prothean scientists committed unspecified acts of sabotage on the Citadel, but that's it. There's no con to retcon about what happened there.

Here is the thing.

 

ME1 never explains HOW the Protheans sabotaged the Keepers, and the signal linking the Citadel to them. Only that they did. So a lot of details revolving around the Keepers, the Citadel, and now the Catalyst were not even given. therefore plot holes can not be proven.

 

Add to the fact that Vigil can be wrong, and it turns out, Bioware does have the freedom to write what they wanted to write.

[txgoldrush]

Cherrypicked facts, given you're citing optional side quests rather than stuff from teh main story, which you dismiss as unimportant.

 

Shepard made no decisions of import in Arrival, let alone decisions that cost lives.  Arrival only showed that Shepard would be railroaded into a no-win scenerio, regardless of choice.  Either kill hundreds of thousands of people or "rocks fall, everyone dies".  It's only saving grace was that SHepard could express regret afterwards.  ME3 denies us even that.

 

Poor storytelling for an RPG.  Bioware should be ashamed.

 

How did I cherry pick facts? Nevermind that while "Signal tracking" is a side quest, much of the main story in ME1 deals with organics vs synthetics, or in a much broader theme, the control of another's destiny to further ones goals.

 

And that "no win" scenario set up ME3. Nevermind ME1 had these kind of scenarios. Arrival is Bioware's way of saying, with the Reapers involved, Shepard has to make sacrifices.

[dorktainian]

My thoughts...  Sovereign or Starjar.

 

Sovereign is Starjar.  Jeez i'm surprised nobody has picked up on it.  Think you killed Sovereign?  While he was downloading himself into the Citadel his minion Saren was delaying shepard.  Download complete.... Sovereigns body falls away... Purpose fulfilled.  

 

'I am Sovereign.... and this station is MINE!!'

 

Choose, but is there really any choice?  

 

As for the Catalyst.  The Catalyst is Shepard, can only be shepard.  Starjar says as much.  He is the first organic to make it that far.  The first organic.  What was the crudible missing that prevented it from working last time?  Shepard.  The Catalyst.  Thats the biggest lie starjar spouts.  Who can force the change?  Not Starjar... he's got no body... hasnt had one for a while, and he needs a new one.  By making a choice you can force change, it just has to be the right one.  Become a catalyst for change.

 

So if you get rid of starjar, you also get rid of sovereign.  2 for 1.  Brilliant.

[Mcfly616]

Actually Sovereign was part of the Catalyst, all reapers are a part of the Catalyst......the Catalyst tells you he embodies the collective intelligence of all Reapers and suggest he is more than an AI, like Shepard is more than an animal.

I'm well aware of that and it still doesn't change what I said, nor the implication it has. Meaning neither Sovereign or the Catalyst 'needs to go' because they are essentially one in the same. Any actions Sovereign carries out are the will of the Catalyst. If Sovereign's signal can't get through to the Keepers due to the Prothean sabotage, it means the Catalyst isn't getting through to them. The Reapers are its means of sending the signal.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 You have to admit, McFly616, that system is pretty lame.

[von uber]

Doesn't that render sovereign's speech on virmire a load of bollocks.

[Deathsaurer]

Eh, why not go with what Leviathan said about the cycle being an experiment? It can be used as an out for a great many things including the Catalyst's apathy about things that would seem to be going wrong. If it really is an experiment than it could simply be sitting back to see what happens instead of poisoning the results with direct interference.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Each cycle a signal is sent through the Citadel compelling the Keepers to activate the Citadel Relay. Vigil tells us this. 

 

What's really bollocks is this: the Protheans didn't alter the Keepers. Vigil tells us that the Protheans altered the signal so that the Keepers wouldn't respond. So when Sovereign sent the signal the Keepers ignored it. This is f***ing hilarious. 

 

This means that the Protheans managed to get on board Sovereign and sabotage the signal. These guys were amazing. They did so without a rocket or space ship. Well maybe they had a shuttle. 

 

OR 

 

Sovereign was docked with the Citadel and they climbed aboard.

 

OR

 

If Sovereign lied about them each being a nation, independent and free of all weakness, and they really were part of a hive mind of the Catalyst, that would mean that the Protheans sabotaged the Starchild and really derped because they could have sabotaged the entire cycle. This is because they altered the signal, not the Keepers. That would be the CONTROL signal, wouldn't it. Hmmm.... So then the Keepers wouldn't respond to it, why would the Reapers respond to it. Wouldn't they be free? I control the reapers. They are my solution. Or was that a bunch of BS?

 

This is just terrible writing.

[Ithurael]

This works if it's conceptually impossible for the scientists to have learned something on the Citadel that they didn't know before traveling to the Citadel, or for them to have done anything there that they hadn't planned on doing before they went. I don't see why that assumption should be made.

Yeah. How they knew it was a signal to the keepers and how they developed the sabotage are not explained. I kinda wish they had a codex entry on the sabotage but lets face it no writing will explain everything. It can only explain enough to drive the story along.

 

End game though. The sabotage (as stated by the lore and by the narrative) affected only the keepers and their ability to receieve the signal from soveriegn. Post sabotage they only responded to the citadel/catalyst/starjar.

[KaiserShep]

It would've been interesting if there was mention of the prothean cycle's equivalent of Chorban, someone who was curious enough to start studying the keepers, and that his/her findings determined that something was fishy with them, and ultimately that study lead to the development of whatever they used to sabotage the signal.

[AlanC9]

One problem with building your narrative around a big surprise is that the info dump you need in the endgame stops the game in its tracks. And since you're currently racing Saren to the Citadel, the length of the Vigil conversation is already a bit weird. Though if a player's bothered by this he can just skip the investigate options.

[ImaginaryMatter]

One problem with building your narrative around a big surprise is that the info dump you need in the endgame stops the game in its tracks. And since you're currently racing Saren to the Citadel, the length of the Vigil conversation is already a bit weird. Though if a player's bothered by this he can just skip the investigate options.

 

That's why I usually skip the Investigate options. I do wish they lamp shaded this a bit better, like perhaps have Vigil state that it was spending the last of its energy to lock down the facility so that no one could move through it so there was time to have a conversation. Or maybe have parts of the conversation back in the Mako (although that would probably ruin the atmosphere of the scene).

[Iakus]

How did I cherry pick facts? Nevermind that while "Signal tracking" is a side quest, much of the main story in ME1 deals with organics vs synthetics, or in a much broader theme, the control of another's destiny to further ones goals.

 

You accept the word of a rogue AI in a side quest as gospel, yet you dismiss Vigil's conclusions as irrelevant.

 

Oh, and ME1 was not about organics and synthetics, it was about Reapers and geth, who happened to be synthetic, versus the Council races, which were organic.

 

 

 

And that "no win" scenario set up ME3. Nevermind ME1 had these kind of scenarios. Arrival is Bioware's way of saying, with the Reapers involved, Shepard has to make sacrifices.

 

Arrival was Bioware's way of saying "you exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it"  Shepard sacrificed nothing because there was no choice in the matter.  It was a railroaded situation, just like any other action-shooter.  Choice was never an issue. 

[CrutchCricket]

My thoughts...  Sovereign or Starjar.

 

Sovereign is Starjar.  Jeez i'm surprised nobody has picked up on it.  Think you killed Sovereign?  While he was downloading himself into the Citadel his minion Saren was delaying shepard.  Download complete.... Sovereigns body falls away... Purpose fulfilled.  

 

'I am Sovereign.... and this station is MINE!!'

 

Choose, but is there really any choice?  

 

As for the Catalyst.  The Catalyst is Shepard, can only be shepard.  Starjar says as much.  He is the first organic to make it that far.  The first organic.  What was the crudible missing that prevented it from working last time?  Shepard.  The Catalyst.  Thats the biggest lie starjar spouts.  Who can force the change?  Not Starjar... he's got no body... hasnt had one for a while, and he needs a new one.  By making a choice you can force change, it just has to be the right one.  Become a catalyst for change.

 

So if you get rid of starjar, you also get rid of sovereign.  2 for 1.  Brilliant.

 

That would've actually been impressive. I would've been less pissed at that. Of course more interesting options present themselves from that premise than just trying to fit it to what we got. I'll lay them down later.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You accept the word of a rogue AI in a side quest as gospel, yet you dismiss Vigil's conclusions as irrelevant.

 

Oh, and ME1 was not about organics and synthetics, it was about Reapers and geth, who happened to be synthetic, versus the Council races, which were organic.

 

 

Arrival was Bioware's way of saying "you exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it"  Shepard sacrificed nothing because there was no choice in the matter.  It was a railroaded situation, just like any other action-shooter.  Choice was never an issue. 

 

And then there are those who never found the rogue AI quest. I didn't until my 8th play through of ME1. It was a fun diversion quest at the time, that is all.

[KaiserShep]

Each cycle a signal is sent through the Citadel compelling the Keepers to activate the Citadel Relay. Vigil tells us this. 

 

What's really bollocks is this: the Protheans didn't alter the Keepers. Vigil tells us that the Protheans altered the signal so that the Keepers wouldn't respond. So when Sovereign sent the signal the Keepers ignored it. This is f***ing hilarious. 

 

This means that the Protheans managed to get on board Sovereign and sabotage the signal. These guys were amazing. They did so without a rocket or space ship. Well maybe they had a shuttle. 

 

OR 

 

Sovereign was docked with the Citadel and they climbed aboard.

 

OR

 

If Sovereign lied about them each being a nation, independent and free of all weakness, and they really were part of a hive mind of the Catalyst, that would mean that the Protheans sabotaged the Starchild and really derped because they could have sabotaged the entire cycle. This is because they altered the signal, not the Keepers. That would be the CONTROL signal, wouldn't it. Hmmm.... So then the Keepers wouldn't respond to it, why would the Reapers respond to it. Wouldn't they be free? I control the reapers. They are my solution. Or was that a bunch of BS?

 

This is just terrible writing.

 

Imagine if Control was simply never an option from the beginning specifically because the Catalyst was no longer able to control anything.

 

Catalyst: I controlled the reapers, but the ones you call protheans severed that connection to them, as they did to the keepers. But, the reapers are not free. By my will or not, they are bound by the directive we share. They will always harvest even if I was no more.

[Iakus]

And then there are those who never found the rogue AI quest. I didn't until my 8th play through of ME1. It was a fun diversion quest at the time, that is all.

Clearly then, you just don't get it

[Deathsaurer]

Imagine if Control was simply never an option from the beginning specifically because the Catalyst was no longer able to control anything.

 

Catalyst: I controlled the reapers, but the ones you call protheans severed that connection to them, as they did to the keepers. But, the reapers are not free. By my will or not, they are bound by the directive we share. They will always harvest even if I was no more.

In one of the earlier drafts the Crucible was supposed to sever its control of the Reapers which I assume would put Harbinger in charge of the cycle.