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[Propelled Rage]

Imagine if Control was simply never an option from the beginning specifically because the Catalyst was no longer able to control anything.

 

 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Imagine if Control was simply never an option from the beginning specifically because the Catalyst was no longer able to control anything.

 

Catalyst: I controlled the reapers, but the ones you call protheans severed that connection to them, as they did to the keepers. But, the reapers are not free. By my will or not, they are bound by the directive we share. They will always harvest even if I was no more.

 

And wouldn't that mean that Synthesis would also be suspect, since if they would continue to harvest even after synthesis? What if Synthesis is consent to harvest? Hmmm... but the only way you could have synthesis then would be to reaperize the galaxy. But we don't know if that's what happened really happened in synthsis do we? Since we create a "new DNA" that is part synthetic and part organic. "We are the pinnacle of evolution." "We are your destiny." "Prepare for your ascension." And isn't that what the reapers are? Part machine and part organic, or at least say they are? Is what we see in the slides the gestalt consciousness of the Reaper collective after the harvest? We don't know because BW never wrote anything about that. It's over. Speculations. 

 

This leaves the only sure method destroying them.

 

Speculations? Are you speculating?

 

But I just don't get it.

[KaiserShep]

And wouldn't that mean that Synthesis would also be suspect, since if they would continue to harvest even after synthesis? What if Synthesis is consent to harvest? Hmmm... but the only way you could have synthesis then would be to reaperize the galaxy. But we don't know if that's what happened really happened in synthsis do we? Since we create a "new DNA" that is part synthetic and part organic. "We are the pinnacle of evolution." "We are your destiny." "Prepare for your ascension." And isn't that what the reapers are? Part machine and part organic, or at least say they are? Is what we see in the slides the gestalt consciousness of the Reaper collective after the harvest? We don't know because BW never wrote anything about that. It's over. Speculations. 

 

This leaves the only sure method destroying them.

 

Speculations? Are you speculating?

 

But I just don't get it.

 

Well...yeah.

 

But anyway Synthesis is different in that it's supposed to basically alter the "framework" of all life in the galaxy, so it would be like overriding this directive anyhow, but I admit I like the idea of the reapers being a runaway train that would just keep on killing everything in sight until they eventually render everything extinct, regardless of what the catalyst wants, but then I'm a diehard Destroyer so I don't have the most objective look at the options.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well...yeah.

 

But anyway Synthesis is different in that it's supposed to basically alter the "framework" of all life in the galaxy, so it would be like overriding this directive anyhow, but I admit I like the idea of the reapers being a runaway train that would just keep on killing everything in sight until they eventually render everything extinct, regardless of what the catalyst wants, but then I'm a diehard Destroyer so I don't have the most objective look at the options.

 

Well starting with Vigil > Sovereign > Catalyst not being in control anymore... we've sure trashed the ending, haven't we?

[txgoldrush]

You accept the word of a rogue AI in a side quest as gospel, yet you dismiss Vigil's conclusions as irrelevant.

 

Oh, and ME1 was not about organics and synthetics, it was about Reapers and geth, who happened to be synthetic, versus the Council races, which were organic.

 

 

Arrival was Bioware's way of saying "you exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it"  Shepard sacrificed nothing because there was no choice in the matter.  It was a railroaded situation, just like any other action-shooter.  Choice was never an issue. 

 

Actually I don't, you were not paying attention. I never said the Signal tracking AI was right, ONLY that he brought up themes of the conflict between organics and synthetics. You missed the entire argument.

 

No, Arrival exists because it was thematically setting up the fact that you cannot save everyone. Face it, you just don't like it...that's doesn't mean the theme isn't there..

[txgoldrush]

Yeah. How they knew it was a signal to the keepers and how they developed the sabotage are not explained. I kinda wish they had a codex entry on the sabotage but lets face it no writing will explain everything. It can only explain enough to drive the story along.

 

End game though. The sabotage (as stated by the lore and by the narrative) affected only the keepers and their ability to receieve the signal from soveriegn. Post sabotage they only responded to the citadel/catalyst/starjar.

No, Vigil actually said that the signal from the Citadel to the Keepers was affected, after the signal to the Citadel was sent.

 

This could mean that they unknowingly altered a command signal from the Catalyst to the Keepers, so while the Catalyst still has control of the Keepers, the Catalyst cannot open the gate. That function got jammed.

 

ME1 failed to tell you HOW the Protheans jammed the signal, only that they DID. This allowed Bioware the freedom to write around it. The problem lies with ME1, not ME3.

 

And as for Vigil, ME3 had Vendetta be incorrect, this means that Prothean VI's do not know everything. The Protheans do not know the Catalyst was the master of the Reapers in the Citadel.

 

Hell, how Dr. Suchong was handled the entire Bioshock franchise was done way worse than this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Arrival killed Batarians. I think Bray was the only Batarian my Colonist/Ruthless Shepard didn't want to shoot on sight. Maybe Arrival would have affected the Spacer/War Hero Shepards in the manner of "you can't save everyone," but my Shepard hated Batarians. Enough to commit genocide on them? Well they didn't think anything of smashing an asteroid into Terra Nova.... To stop a Reaper invasion? Better them than us.

 

Taken as an enitre story, the problem lies in ME3 not being consistent with the established lore of the series, including the books. From a literary standpoint one should remain consistent with established lore. Not to worry, though, even the greats like Tolstoy have been remiss in this. The problem is that when one isn't consistent it causes the reader, or in this case the player to break their suspension of disbelief. 

 

Take the conversation with Vigil. The writers contradicted themselves within that conversation. 

 

The only thing that keeps the entire story from falling flat on its face is the characters. Bioware made compelling characters. If the characters had been really flat and the actual plots showed through, I think the games would have gotten horrid ratings. Stories without compelling characters suck no matter how good the premise. If the premise is mediocre and the characters are very good you can actually skate by and maintain a loyal following. That's what happened with ME. Strip away the characters and what do you have? ME has always been about the characters. Just imagine an entire squad of Jacobs and Kaidans. Yawn.

[txgoldrush]

Arrival killed Batarians. I think Bray was the only Batarian my Colonist/Ruthless Shepard didn't want to shoot on sight. Maybe Arrival would have affected the Spacer/War Hero Shepards in the manner of "you can't save everyone," but my Shepard hated Batarians. Enough to commit genocide on them? Well they didn't think anything of smashing an asteroid into Terra Nova.... To stop a Reaper invasion? Better them than us.

 

Taken as an enitre story, the problem lies in ME3 not being consistent with the established lore of the series, including the books. From a literary standpoint one should remain consistent with established lore. Not to worry, though, even the greats like Tolstoy have been remiss in this. The problem is that when one isn't consistent it causes the reader, or in this case the player to break their suspension of disbelief. 

 

Take the conversation with Vigil. The writers contradicted themselves within that conversation. 

 

The only thing that keeps the entire story from falling flat on its face is the characters. Bioware made compelling characters. If the characters had been really flat and the actual plots showed through, I think the games would have gotten horrid ratings. Stories without compelling characters suck no matter how good the premise. If the premise is mediocre and the characters are very good you can actually skate by and maintain a loyal following. That's what happened with ME. Strip away the characters and what do you have? ME has always been about the characters. Just imagine an entire squad of Jacobs and Kaidans. Yawn.

 News to you, characters spouting out info doesn't make it established canon.

 

Only ACTIONS IN THE PLOT DO!!!!!!!!!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Who performs the actions in the plot? Characters. When characters speak, is that an action? Yes or no?

[KaiserShep]

 News to you, characters spouting out info doesn't make it established canon.

 

Only ACTIONS IN THE PLOT DO!!!!!!!!!

 

Doesn't this really depend on whether or not the plot ever contradicts what characters say? There's a lot of things we get in the story that is only conveyed through dialogue.

[Farangbaa]

 News to you, characters spouting out info doesn't make it established canon.

 

Only ACTIONS IN THE PLOT DO!!!!!!!!!

 

Are you for real, man?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I've really got to stop coming here and picking apart this story. Like the ending. Shepard is an idiot. Look at what (s)he gets up in this special area of the Citadel and this holographic glowboy walks out and says, "Wake up." Well, Shepard looked pretty awake to me already. Then glowboy says "I am the Catalyst.... I control the Reapers. They are my solution." Okay, maybe we can swallow this part. But this?

 

"It is in your power to destroy us...." And then Shepard has a vision, yes, a vision of the dead Admiral Anderson shooting a plasma conduit with a pistol. Wait! What? A vision? How is Shepard having a vision? or... is this the story narrator saying "okay, player, this is how you destroy the reapers." OR is Shepard having a vision? Which is it?

 

Same with The Illusive Man.... No, it's a vision. Definitely a vision... "So The Illusive Man was right after all."  But wait! TIM didn't say anything about grabbing control rods.

 

So is Shepard having visions? Or is it the narrator telling us how to do this?

 

Which bad writing is it?

[angol fear]

Who performs the actions in the plot? Characters. When characters speak, is that an action? Yes or no?

Ahahah. Then Eric Rohmer made action movies! You should read some narratology articles to learn the difference between speech and action.

[von uber]

News to you, characters spouting out info doesn't make it established canon.

Only ACTIONS IN THE PLOT DO!!!!!!!!!

So the codex isn't canon?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

So the codex isn't canon?

Of course it isn't. You see, then that glorious, artistic masterpiece of an ending wouldn't make any sense. 

And we can't have that, can we?

[KaiserShep]

Another thing we're told but never shown would be something like the use of asteroids against the turians during the krogan rebellions. As far as I can tell, no one mentions this other than Victus. Is it canon, or is it simply hearsay? Unless it was revealed that there was some kind of massive propaganda machine that greatly exaggerated the krogan's tactics during the rebellion, we have to simply take it as canonical, especially when this is something that we must consider when weighing in on whether or not to cure the genophage.

[TheTurtle]

Another thing we're told but never shown would be something like the use of asteroids against the turians during the krogan rebellions. As far as I can tell, no one mentions this other than Victus. Is it canon, or is it simply hearsay? Unless it was revealed that there was some kind of massive propaganda machine that greatly exaggerated the krogan's tactics during the rebellion, we have to simply take it as canonical, especially when this is something that we must consider when weighing in on whether or not to cure the genophage.

Maybe they did something like Balak was trying to do and steered astroids into turian colonies.

[SporkFu]

I may be mistaken, but I thought Garrus mentioned the krogans using asteroids againt the turians, while the squad was strolling around Menae looking for Victus. He also talks about using asteroids on Rannoch to take out the geth jamming tower during Koris' rescue mission. Squadmate #2 will point out the damage that will do to Rannoch itself.

[KaiserShep]

I remember the comment on Rannoch, but he never mentions the krogan.

[SporkFu]

Yeah, I just watched it on youtube. Guess I was mixing up Garrus and Victus there.

[Kel Riever]

Of course it isn't. You see, then that glorious, artistic masterpiece of an ending wouldn't make any sense. 

And we can't have that, can we?

 

You know, taking the codex as canon really shoots this whole "explain everything so the true masterpiece of the ending that Mass Effect 3 was is finally realized by everybody" right in the buttocks.

 

Perfection requires a lot of suspension of fact and a heavy dose of condescending attitude!

[AlanC9]

Which Codex entry are we talking about? I can't condescend properly without knowing the specific point.

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

Starchild didn't exist until Mass Effect 3, and that's why they needed Sovereign to do open the relay in ME1. It's that simple. Starchild was an ass pull... A pseudo-DEM at the end of the story. "The Intelliigence" didn't exist until Leviathan DLC. The more you look at the plot, the more holes you will find. Mass Effect was never about the plot. It was about the characters. That's why we kept coming back for more, and they ruined the entire thing with the third installment. They could have milked this cash cow for another three games just by having Shepard find new ways of stopping the reapers from invading the galaxy. No one ever really cared about the reapers and fighting them -- well maybe a small minority did. The vast majority cared about the characters.

 

This right here ladies and gentlemen.

[AlanC9]

Three more games of Shepard stopping the Reapers from invading the galaxy? Eww.

[Kel Riever]

Which Codex entry are we talking about? I can't condescend properly without knowing the specific point.

Lol. You know you don't fit the description.

Edit: and you know who does...