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Sovereign vs The Catalyst: One has to go


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#451
txgoldrush

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Yes I do get it. When you have writers stating things like: "It takes two weeks for the Migrant Fleet to traverse a mass relay" written in the codex due to its size, and then break lore like that in ME3 by expecting the entire Quarian fleet to traverse the mass relay in Tikkun after the destruction of the dreadnought immediately -- it is still supposed to take two weeks. It was supposed to take them two weeks to get into the system, too. And then our Sword Fleet which has the entire Quarian Fleet in addition to everyone elses (except the Salarians in most cases) pop into the Solar System immediately in one fell swoop. That violates lore or its a retcon. These sources are not wrong. They were changed by the writers. Just fracking admit that they were changed by the writers.

 

And that's not what Legion was saying. Legion said this about Sovereign: "One ship, one will, many minds. 'We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness': a state compelling to the Geth. We are a nation but interdependent. Separation is our weakness." Sovereign offered them true unity, but the true Geth rejected the Reaper's path and chose to obtain it their own way. The Heretics followed Sovereign. "Following another's path blinds you to alternatives." Their own future was building the Dyson Sphere to achieve true unity. Your interpretation is the fanon. Your interpretation is what you think lore should be. You're the one who should get over it.

 

You can also admit that Leviathan was written after the game was published. This was to further explain the part where the Catalyst rebelled against their creators and created the first true reaper: "they did not approve." The only one that was on the drawing board as a DLC as of March 2012 was Omega and possibly a quest involving Admiral Xen, part of which was on the original game disk.

 

"I am the collective consciousness of all reapers." "I control the reapers. They are my solution." So like when Legion interfaced with Nazara and experienced the Reaper mind: one ship, one will, many minds, we have the collective consciousness: one AI, one will, many minds. But now this has changed because the Catalyst has absolute control over each of them. They are not each a nation, independent, and free of all weakness. They are indoctrinated into believing that by the Catalyst. Or was Sovereign lying. Or was the Catalyst lying. It is one of the other....

 

I'm going to go back to ME1 here. Vigil is not really a character. Vigil is the author inserting himself directly into the story and providing an information dump to the player through a throw away character you will never see again. The purpose of this is to explain to you why the Citadel Relay simply didn't open up, and why the reapers needed to use a third party to gain access to the Citadel to open the Mass Relay, and to give the player the means to stop Saren (the magic data file or DEM). Again, Vigil is Drew Karpyshyn. Vigil is not a character.

 

But in the ORIGINAL ENDING, the Catalyst, like Vigil, is not a character. The Catalyst is Mac Walters inserting himself into the story providing the player with an information dump necessary to end the game. You cannot end the game without him. You cannot stop the reapers without him. This is your DEM. In the EC, if you refuse the DEM you lose.

You still do not get it, and it shows. Once again, in the case of Legion (another character you have to not trust completely), just because he saw one ship and one will, with many minds, does NOT mean he isn't controlled by something else. You are making something exclusive when it doesn't have to be. And really the ONLY aspect you can draw out of this conversation is that Reapers are different from Geth. Nevermind Legion in ME2 can also tell you that he cannot tell how the Reaper minds were different from his and he does not interface with a reaper until ME3, where he says a single thought was immense and that his sensory programs were overloaded.

 

And if you want to whine about fleet movement in relays, then peg ME1 as guilty, because it is, because the Sovereign led geth and the Fifth Fleet do the exact same thing. Or the codex can be wrong or proven wrong, like it was when it said that the relays were built by the Protheans. the codex, like the characters, have to be taken with a grain of salt. You ignore this, you refuse this, so your argument is flawed. If the codex can be proven wrong in ME1, it can be wrong in ME3.

 

Nevermind the codex never said that fleets cannot move in masse through relays, in fact, its quite the opposite.

 

"Conservative assault doctrine holds that fleets should be moved en masse, maintaining concentration of force and reducing the chances of collision. The only time it is reasonable to split up a formation is during blockade running."

 

Nevermind that the codex never said that the Migrant Fleet ALWAYS takes days to go through the relay, only that it CAN. It does NOT have to take days. A battle charge and retreat is logically different from simple migration.

 

"Vigil is Drew Karpyshyn. Vigil is not a character."

 

No, he is a character and he can be wrong. Why can he be wrong? Because his knowledge is limited and he may  not know the full extent of the truth on what the Reapers did, and what they are. And he was proven wrong not only in ME2, when traces of their invasions were left behind (derelict reaper), he can be wrong in ME1 as well, with the Leviathan of Dis. So basically him telling you that the Reapers wiped all traces of their existence is wrong, even in the first game.

 

This alone proves to me that it isn't canon that was broken, its YOUR FANON, because you are making up the rules on what is what, while I argue logically, that you can't take everything a character says as correct because of many factors, and that is a good way that writers can "retcon" a story without being a mess, and thanks to Drew Karpyshyn's style of tell everything, show nothing, Bioware is able to write around this.



#452
sH0tgUn jUliA

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... deleted.



#453
AlexMBrennan

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If you believe the Catalyst when he says "I am the collective consciousness of all Reapers," then he also was part of Sovereign, and Sovereign was part of him. How could Sovereign be unaware of the Catalyst in that case

Are you really going to go for an argument that weak?

Have you been to any puppet shows as a child? During these shows, the puppeteer(s) will have several puppets acts out a scene - puppets which are mindlessness tools, yet appear to have different personality and so on. It would be perfectly consistent with the games to have Catalyst make one of his tools act like a stupid comic book super villain to hide their true motives and make sure we'd underestimate the Reapers.
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#454
MassivelyEffective0730

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Precisely, many indoctrinated agents do not believe they are being controlled, so why should Sovereign be any different?

 

Saren, Kenson, and TIM did not believe they were being controlled for the most part.

 

And what exactly do they have in common with a Reaper?



#455
KaiserShep

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Are you really going to go for an argument that weak?

Have you been to any puppet shows as a child? During these shows, the puppeteer(s) will have several puppets acts out a scene - puppets which are mindlessness tools, yet appear to have different personality and so on. It would be perfectly consistent with the games to have Catalyst make one of his tools act like a stupid comic book super villain to hide their true motives and make sure we'd underestimate the Reapers.

 

Reapers = worst muppets ever?



#456
AlanC9

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And what exactly do they have in common with a Reaper?

They're both following a plan that's of no use to themselves, but which does serve someone else's interest.

I guess the dividing line here is whether on thought the cycles made any sense in the first place.

#457
sH0tgUn jUliA

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They're both following a plan that's of no use to themselves, but which does serve someone else's interest.

I guess the dividing line here is whether on thought the cycles made any sense in the first place.

 

Yo dawg! We heard you were going to make synthetics that were going to kill you so we sent in a bunch of synthetics to kill you before you made synthetics that were going to kill you.



#458
SwobyJ

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They found a loophole. 'Preservation'.

 

 

But as far as the overt narrative communicates to us, 'preservation' just means turning us into go and making a Reaper AI regard himself as biomechanical because of it.

 

Ew. That's really gross and lame.

 

 

I have other ideas about it, but as far as ME2's main story script goes, that's all that happens.



#459
Mcfly616

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Lol wait....wait...

I'm just skimming through the last page. Is someone trying to say that Vigil's words are concrete "fact"?



That would be rather humorous considering half its dialogue is complete speculation on its part.

#460
Hanako Ikezawa

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They found a loophole. 'Preservation'.

 

 

But as far as the overt narrative communicates to us, 'preservation' just means turning us into go and making a Reaper AI regard himself as biomechanical because of it.

 

Ew. That's really gross and lame.

 

 

I have other ideas about it, but as far as ME2's main story script goes, that's all that happens.

I always saw the liquidation of the people used to make Reapers was done more to gain them as data.



#461
SwobyJ

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That's a fine take on it. Data - programs - preserved.



#462
Hanako Ikezawa

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That's a fine take on it. Data - programs - preserved.

Thanks. It also explains why the Reapers are willing to die or sacrifice their own in cycles. Once the race is turned into data in the process of making the Reaper, the new Reaper itself is actually more of a byproduct used to make future cycles easier to harvest. The real data of the races are stored among the Intelligence/Catalyst. 



#463
AlanC9

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Yo dawg! We heard you were going to make synthetics that were going to kill you so we sent in a bunch of synthetics to kill you before you made synthetics that were going to kill you.


Isn't there a pic that goes with this?
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#464
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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Isn't there a pic that goes with this?

yodawg.jpg



#465
Mcfly616

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Looks just as foolish every time.

#466
AlanC9

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Yeah, but it just isn't the same without the pic.

Who is that guy, anyway?
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#467
Aimi

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Xzibit. One-time host of the MTV show "Pimp My Ride".

also a little bit of actin and rappin on the side

#468
Mcfly616

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Yeah, but it just isn't the same without the pic.
Who is that guy, anyway?

just throwing it out there...



I can't stop laughing.....

#469
sH0tgUn jUliA

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But the picture does sum up the entire reaper plot in less than 30 words.



#470
Mcfly616

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But the picture does sum up the entire reaper plot in less than 30 words.

no, it really doesn't. And that's why it's funny. (well, 'partly' why. The other part is Alan).

#471
rekn2

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why do people still argue over this stupid ****?

 

it was a retcon. all credibility is gone. this is all the fault of upper management. make-it-up-as-you-go, musical-chairs-for-writers garbage.

 

 

its obvious were all upset and i honestly cant wait for the new game. i hope its so left field the original ME doesnt even come into play. i hope they learned from their mistake.

 

BW, dont do stupid **** like this again!



#472
Mcfly616

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Yeah, I'm not sure which 'retcon' you're referring to...nor which mistake.


But I do agree, I hope the next ME is completely different from the Shepard Trilogy. The protagonist, the antagonist, the story, the narrative structure, the gameplay mechanics. I want 'different'. I sure as hell don't want to hear of or see any of Shepard's squadmates. I don't want to be a commander in the Alliance Military. I don't want to be burdened with saving everyone. And, not that it's a stipulation, but I'd prefer if I could fight an enemy that was my own and not simply 'everybody's' enemy.
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#473
rekn2

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I disagree: I feel that the retcon killed the credibility and believable credence of the work and the writers.

 

How is the notion of the Reapers being independent illogical? Being independent does not mean that you can't come to the same conclusion or belief. 

 

Because a consensus is a conclusion of general agreement reached by a group. You can't force or control an agreement lest it not be called a consensus in the first place. A coerced or controlled consensus isn't a consensus. You're making the mistake of believing that a dictatorial-led consensus is a real consensus at all. How would it be a general agreement if the participants are being controlled without their will (knowing or unknowing)? It's not a consensus, it's a dictator forcing his own conclusion on a group, making them agree via coercion, manipulation, or intimidation, and calling it a consensus for his own purposes.

 

How do you know that? What proof or evidence do you have? This is becoming a semantic debate on wordplay.

 

That's not a consensus, that's the Catalyst controlling the Reapers and functioning as their collective figure. It's an invalid reconciliation. 

this is the retcon i speak of



#474
rekn2

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Yeah, I'm not sure which 'retcon' you're referring to...nor which mistake.


But I do agree, I hope the next ME is completely different from the Shepard Trilogy. The protagonist, the antagonist, the story, the narrative structure, the gameplay mechanics. I want 'different'. I sure as hell don't want to hear of or see any of Shepard's squadmates. I don't want to be a commander in the Alliance Military. I don't want to be burdened with saving everyone. And, not that it's a stipulation, but I'd prefer if I could fight an enemy that was my own and not simply 'everybody's' enemy.

they ruined a really interesting alien race, hell, they did it multiple times. im so sick of the "humans in costumes" schtick we get with every sci fi piece of media. the original reapers, unique...the original geth, unique.

 

seriously...break etoile's legs and duct tape him to his office chair, he never sees the sun again!



#475
KaiserShep

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But I do agree, I hope the next ME is completely different from the Shepard Trilogy. The protagonist, the antagonist, the story, the narrative structure, the gameplay mechanics. I want 'different'. I sure as hell don't want to hear of or see any of Shepard's squadmates. I don't want to be a commander in the Alliance Military. I don't want to be burdened with saving everyone. And, not that it's a stipulation, but I'd prefer if I could fight an enemy that was my own and not simply 'everybody's' enemy.

 

I think it's a fair bet that whatever the next game is about, you will be saving a large group of people, even if it's just a single planet. I don't think BioWare would ever veer so far from Mass Effect's formula that they'd confine the conflict with the enemy to just the protagonist of the story. I guess it's really a matter of what is determined to have wider appeal.


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