981 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Another thing to consider if we look at the bigger picture is the Reapers pre and post Catalyst; or to zoom in a little bit, the Reapers pre and post ME 3.

 

Sovereign is shown to have an active contempt for organic life, and Harbinger is shown to take an almost sadistic pleasure in torturing and killing people; yet according to the Catalyst the Reapers are created only to continue the cycle; robotic servants carrying out the cold machine logic of the Intelligence's grand plan.

 

So which is it?

 

The actions and personalities of Sovereign and Harbinger seem to be in direct contrast to the whole 'cleansing fire' aspect that the Catalyst spouts off about. If the Reapers exist only to further the cycle, and everything done is in a cold, efficient, machine-like manner, then why even have the Reapers talk at all? Or at least, why show Harbinger taunting people trapped in stasis fields, people with no possibility of escape, or have the captured colonists liquified slowly, one at a time in full view of everyone else, if the Reapers are just carrying out their orders, and the galaxy is not at war with them?

 

These are supposedly just machines programed to do a specific task, not Cuthulu monsters that feed off fear and suffering.

 

Look at what the Reapers do themselves to not only speed the cycle forward, but to actively incite conflict between organics and synthetics. Sovereign actively tried to entice the Geth into joining him on the promise that they'd benefit from destroying their organic oppressors. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

This is just speculation on my part - I agree that the "real" reason is probably that Bioware hadn't planned all this out ahead of time.

 

That said....

 

The Catalyst does seem to place some value upon the knowledge and experiences of advanced species, even if it doesn't plan to let them live for too long. It says that harvested species are preserved in Reaper form, and there are probably instances where the cycles could be completed quicker, and with fewer Reaper casualties, by just killing everyone instead of killing some and harvesting some. So perhaps the Catalyst doesn't intervene because it's confident that the current cycle's species will eventually be harvested, but in the meantime, if they can add to their collective knowledge and experiences through things like the prothean sabotage or the defeat of Sovereign, it prefers to let them do so if the cost is just the loss of one Reaper.

 

It doesn't seem to know that the Crucible plans are still out there at the time of ME1, and from what we saw in ME3, the current cycle didn't stand a chance without the Crucible. So the Catalyst wouldn't be entirely unreasonable in assuming that the destruction of Sovereign was just a fluke within the bigger picture.

[KaiserShep]

I'm not one who likes hand-waiving things in stories. If I have to hand-waive something, then it means the writers screwed up. Which they did the moment they decided to make a trilogy of games without planning ahead for where they wanted to go with the story. Making it up as you go along is a really crappy M.O, and it makes me think less of them professionally.

I understand. The way I see it, I can either accept my dose of handwavium, or pick away at the game until I can't play it again.

This is kind of what draws me into the Dragon Age games more. I don't have to really do this nearly as much.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I understand. The way I see it, I can either accept my dose of handwavium, or pick away at the game until I can't play it again.

 

I can hand-waive a few things that are left ambiguous, I should say, and I can tell when a writer is being deliberate with what's being put out.

 

That said, if I have to hand-waive something (like this) that shouldn't be hand-waived, it kills my interest in it. I physically cannot enjoy it. I'm not a sentimental guy like that: If something has a problem, I'm not going to just recite the MST3K mantra (which really wasn't meant to apply to more serious forms of media anyway). I'm a guy where things *have* to make sense in an in-universe way, and if it fails, I lose my suspension of disbelief.

[CronoDragoon]

I see it as B, but simply because the Catalyst doesn't want to expose himself. It's better to let the Reapers assume they are independent, and also for the galaxy to assume the Reapers are independent. That way, even if they destroy the Reapers he will remain to rebuild and try again. This changes once the Crucible is docked and the Catalyst realizes the potential solutions available, so he reveals himself to Shepard.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

A) Star-Child can't open the Relay to Dark Space.

 

The above statement makes no sense in the context of the Star-Child's explanation or anything that we know about him. The kid designed and built both the mass relays and the citadel. He also lives on the Citadel and it has been "part of him" for many billions of years, likely in a relationship similar to EDI's connection to the Normandy.

 

It makes no sense for the Star-Child to create the Citadel, Mass Relays, Keepers and Reapers, put them in a tightly nit cycle meant to solve a problem, and then purposefully lock himself out of having any control over any of it. Even if Star-Child can't directly activate anything, there's nothing to suggest that he couldn't correct the Keeper signal and have them open the Dark Relay when they're supposed to.

 

Then there's the fact that Star-Child ... activates the elevator that brought Shepard to the Decision Chamber and presumably altered the environment of the Chamber so that Shepard wouldn't die from oxygen deprivation.

 

...

 

Cold-Logic leaves no room for potentially-fatal curious, or else he would never have gone to such extremes in the first place.

 

Cold logic also doesn't jump to conclusions based on things that are only "likely" or "presumably" true (bolded in what I quoted), only things that we know are absolutely or definitely true can be used to make any safe conclusions, making your OP thoroughly illogical.

 

Hind-sight is 20/20. The Reapers simply estimated organics' intelligence and capability to be too low to ever foil their existing system of harvesting cycles. Even with the benefit of hindsight, the fact this galaxy put all their chips in an unknown alien device to stop them -- while another, more sound plan failed to work -- hardly invalidates that notion either. They were stopped by dumb luck and plot armor, not our own intelligence or the Reapers' ineptitude. The idea that something was bound to happen merely because it did happen (and, by extension, the conclusion that it should have been expected from the start) is actually a logical fallacy known as retrospective determinism.

[The Bad One]

Because the Catalyst has no physical capability. It's thralls are how it functions. It is nothing but an omnipresent consciousness. The keepers signal was F'd up by the Protheans....hence why it cannot use them to open the relay. It makes sense just fine. Actually, it's quite smart to have layers of deception. Have the pawns do the dirty work.

This.

Glad this was the first post too. It was basically /thread here.

[NeroonWilliams]

I posit that there is an additional factor involved in the AI's UNWILLINGNESS to open the Dark Space Relay.

 

The illusion of free will.

 

I posit that the reason none of the Reapers that Shepard interacts with mentions the AI is that THEY are unaware of it.  The general outline of the Harvest is built into the process of constructing each new Reaper, and each new Reaper is then brought into the fold.  Any Reapers created after the first 2-3 cycles would have NO reason to be aware that they were part of a system set up by anything other than the Reapers themselves.

 

If the AI were to reinsert itself into the cycle by "assuming direct control", this illusion will be broken for the Reapers, and the AI may find out about "the created rising up against the creators" in a whole new light.

[The Bad One]

I thought the Catalyst couldn't control the keepers anymore (like you said) due to Prothean interference. So how would it be able to activate the elevator via the keepers? It'd have to be able to have some kind of control over the Citadel and its systems. And you never addressed how the Catalyst has the ability to deactivate the Crucible. It has a lot more power than you're giving it credit for. 

 

A little hole in your statement (actually a big one that undermines your entire attempt to rationalize and protect your argument).

 

I maintain mine, poor game planning mixed with bad writing on BW's part is responsible for this plot hole.

The Crucible activated the elevator.

The Catalyst never deactivated the Crucible. That was presumably due to damage/non-use.

[AlanC9]

I thought the Catalyst couldn't control the keepers anymore (like you said) due to Prothean interference. So how would it be able to activate the elevator via the keepers? It'd have to be able to have some kind of control over the Citadel and its systems. And you never addressed how the Catalyst has the ability to deactivate the Crucible. It has a lot more power than you're giving it credit for.

This doesn't follow. Breaking control over one device doesn't imply breaking control over all of them. A quadriplegic can still control his eyes.

It's also never established that the Catalyst controls that elevator. But that doesn't matter.

[AlanC9]

I posit that there is an additional factor involved in the AI's UNWILLINGNESS to open the Dark Space Relay.
 
The illusion of free will.
 
I posit that the reason none of the Reapers that Shepard interacts with mentions the AI is that THEY are unaware of it.  The general outline of the Harvest is built into the process of constructing each new Reaper, and each new Reaper is then brought into the fold.  Any Reapers created after the first 2-3 cycles would have NO reason to be aware that they were part of a system set up by anything other than the Reapers themselves.
 
If the AI were to reinsert itself into the cycle by "assuming direct control", this illusion will be broken for the Reapers, and the AI may find out about "the created rising up against the creators" in a whole new light.

So the Reapers themselves are Indoctrinated and don't know it, eh? It has a nice irony.

[Kabooooom]

So the Reapers themselves are Indoctrinated and don't know it, eh? It has a nice irony.

The Reapers being unaware of the Catalyst is always how I interpreted the story too. It follows rather naturally from it, explains a lot, and I'm surprised other people didn't come to a similar conclusion.

If true, yes, it would be somewhat ironic- the Reapers are forced to accept and carry out a plan that they did not design, effectively indoctrinated themselves. It would also explain why a harvested civilization who previously had been rebelling against the harvest, suddenly accepts it once in Reaper form. A new perspective gained from a transcendent consciousness doesn't really explain that very well in the sense that every single Reaper carries out the harvest in synchrony and with no contrary viewpoints. That they are forced to, and unaware of both that AND the existence of the Catalyst is both an elegant explanation and actually supported by the Catalyst's dialog in the decision chamber.

[von uber]

The Crucible activated the elevator.

Source?

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Crucible activated the elevator.

The Catalyst never deactivated the Crucible. That was presumably due to damage/non-use.

 

Why would the Crucible activate an elevator that none of it's designers knew about?

[CronoDragoon]

The Reapers being unaware of the Catalyst is always how I interpreted the story too. It follows rather naturally from it, explains a lot, and I'm surprised other people didn't come to a similar conclusion.

If true, yes, it would be somewhat ironic- the Reapers are forced to accept and carry out a plan that they did not design, effectively indoctrinated themselves. It would also explain why a harvested civilization who previously had been rebelling against the harvest, suddenly accepts it once in Reaper form. A new perspective gained from a transcendent consciousness doesn't really explain that very well in the sense that every single Reaper carries out the harvest in synchrony and with no contrary viewpoints. That they are forced to, and unaware of both that AND the existence of the Catalyst is both an elegant explanation and actually supported by the Catalyst's dialog in the decision chamber.

 

Yeah, this and also what I said above for why it's smart that the Catalyst does the least amount of work himself possible. Personally, I see the Catalyst as indoctrinating the need for the Harvest into the Reapers but nothing else. It would explain why someone like Sovereign who is apparently disgusted by organics nevertheless carries out the harvest plan.

 

Besides that, this type of subversion (the Reapers are themselves indoctrinated) is supported elsewhere in the Reaper story: Harbinger and Sovereign claim that the Reapers are the pinnacle of evolution and use words like "ascension" yet the Catalyst views the Reapers with something approaching rueful disdain, calling them failed attempts at Synthesis. It's clear that how the Reapers see themselves and how the Catalyst sees/treats them are quite different.

[The Bad One]

Source?

 

Anderson stand there; nothing happens.
TIM stands there; nothing happens.
Shepard stands there; nothing happens.
Crucible docks.
Shepard stands there; elevator takes him to the Crucibles choices.

Along with the Catalyst not displaying any control over the Citadel's functions, and the fact that if it was the Catalyst it would cause contradictions (as you can see from some posts here), it's pretty obvious that it was the Crucible.

If your answer causes contradictions, and another answer doesn't, it's pretty obvious what the right answer is.
 

Why would the Crucible activate an elevator that none of it's designers knew about?

 

Source?

[SporkFu]

Not that I'm defending the catalyst or anything, but I look at it kinda like, maybe the catalyst was mandated not to get too directly involved. It just sets things in motion and lets them play out without interfering.

[KaiserShep]

Silence. I demand you to hate it with every fiber of your being.

[Reorte]

Besides that, this type of subversion (the Reapers are themselves indoctrinated) is supported elsewhere in the Reaper story: Harbinger and Sovereign claim that the Reapers are the pinnacle of evolution and use words like "ascension" yet the Catalyst views the Reapers with something approaching rueful disdain, calling them failed attempts at Synthesis. It's clear that how the Reapers see themselves and how the Catalyst sees/treats them are quite different.

I'm not very keen on the "Reapers are indoctrinated" line of thinking. They're obviously not indoctrinated in the same way as everything else is, otherwise they wouldn't be able to function very effectively (I suppose you could argue that proves they are...) It also makes little sense for them to have been designed and built in the first place to need indoctrinating - better just create them to completely believe in your plan from the start and not have to impose it later. Then they don't even need indoctrinating.

[Farangbaa]

Wait, how did we get from the Reapers not being aware of the Catalyst to them being indoctrinated by the Catalyst?

 

Them not being aware of the Catalyst seems painfully obvious to me, but they don't have to be indoctrinated to do what they are doing.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm not very keen on the "Reapers are indoctrinated" line of thinking. They're obviously not indoctrinated in the same way as everything else is, otherwise they wouldn't be able to function very effectively (I suppose you could argue that proves they are...) It also makes little sense for them to have been designed and built in the first place to need indoctrinating - better just create them to completely believe in your plan from the start and not have to impose it later. Then they don't even need indoctrinating.

 

I'm just using indoctrination as shorthand, what I'm actually suggesting is what you say: the harvest directive is built into them when they are created. However, it's clear that the Catalyst can also control them when needed, in case something goes wrong.

 

Besides that, it's not indoctrination like how organics are indoctrinated, no. By necessity it must be different dealing with synthetic materials as opposed to chemicals/organic matter. There's also no reason to believe synthetic minds will degrade into slush the way organic ones do when prolonged indoctrination happens so that isn't an issue.

[Massa FX]

I've thought this myself OP. The AI is already on the Citadel. Why does it need anything to do anything?  Design flaw? Those Levi's did NOTHING right. geesh.

[Farangbaa]

I'm just using indoctrination as shorthand, what I'm actually suggesting is what you say: the harvest directive is built into them when they are created. However, it's clear that the Catalyst can also control them when needed, in case something goes wrong.

 

Why? Where does the catalyst actively intervene? (I might be missing something painfully obvious here )

 

The Catalyst speaks in terms of 'we' because, as I see it, it knows everything the Reapers know. But the Reapers are not aware of it, and I highly doubt it can actively control the Reapers.

[Reorte]

Why? Where does the catalyst actively intervene? (I might be missing something painfully obvious here )

 

The Catalyst speaks in terms of 'we' because, as I see it, it knows everything the Reapers know. But the Reapers are not aware of it, and I highly doubt it can actively control the Reapers.

There must be some means by which it can intervene if Control is supposed to work.

[SporkFu]

Silence. I demand you to hate it with every fiber of your being.