981 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

this is the retcon i speak of

you're basing your definition of a 'retcon' on Sovereigns vague words (which could easily be perceived as arrogance)? That's about as plausible as stating Vigils speculations are accepted facts.

[Mcfly616]

I think it's a fair bet that whatever the next game is about, you will be saving a large group of people, even if it's just a single planet. I don't think BioWare would ever veer so far from Mass Effect's formula that they'd confine the conflict with the enemy to just the protagonist of the story. I guess it's really a matter of what is determined to have wider appeal.

hey, idc if it's threating a planet. Just so long as said planet means something to my character. Just so long as it's my enemy. I don't want to be fighting for the entire galaxy and every rotten bastard in it. I've played that part, and it was fun. But now it's done. If the villain was attacking something that my character held dear...I could fight for that. Honestly, I know combat is going to be a big part of whatever game they make, but I'm hoping it's not what drives the narrative forward this time around.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

no, it really doesn't. And that's why it's funny. (well, 'partly' why. The other part is Alan).

What part of it isn't true, from what star brat says?

[Mcfly616]

What part of it isn't true, from what star brat says?

I, as well as multiple people here (who don't even care much for the ending), have specifically explained to you how the Xzibit meme doesn't even begin to grasp the concept of the ending. I'm not going to explain it again. Take the time to look back on the thread.

[AlanC9]

they ruined a really interesting alien race, hell, they did it multiple times. im so sick of the "humans in costumes" schtick we get with every sci fi piece of media. the original reapers, unique...the original geth, unique.
 
seriously...break etoile's legs and duct tape him to his office chair, he never sees the sun again!

I can see a case for the original geth vision. But the Reapers were hardly unique. Except that they were uniquely nonsensical, which I guess counts for something.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I, as well as multiple people here (who don't even care much for the ending), have specifically explained to you how the Xzibit meme doesn't even begin to grasp the concept of the ending. I'm not going to explain it again. Take the time to look back on the thread.

Ah, but that requires reading. Please, sum it up. 

Quote, from the dialogue itself, how does not grasp what is said.

[Mcfly616]

....I'm not taking the time out of my night to tell you the same thing in a different way for the hundredth time since you arrived on the BSN a few weeks ago waving the Xzibit meme as one of your initial posts.

You want an explaination. You do the reading. You seem to want me to sum it up a different way as the Xzibit meme, but in just as many words. And that's exactly the problem. You can't....

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

....I'm not taking the time out of my night to tell you the same thing in a different way for the hundredth time since you arrived on the BSN a few weeks ago waving the Xzibit meme as one of your initial posts.

You want an explaination. You do the reading. You seem to want me to sum it up a different way as the Xzibit meme, but in just as many words. And that's exactly the problem. You can't....

Actually, that was never mentioned. It's all about why or why not the catalyst didn't just open up the relay himself. 

He literally says that he made the reapers to solve the problem of organics vs. synthetics. 

[CronoDragoon]

Actually, that was never mentioned. It's all about why or why not the catalyst didn't just open up the relay himself. 

He literally says that he made the reapers to solve the problem of organics vs. synthetics. 

 

Here's what I posted in the "Finished ME3" thread which I believe Mcfly was referencing:

 

 

There's two immediate issues with the yo dawg meme:

 

The first is that the Catalyst sees the Reapers as 1) living beings that 2) archive organic and synthetic races through the uploading of minds and by preserving their genetic information. As an AI sees it, he *is* preserving the lives of these organic and synthetic races, just in a different form. The yo dawg meme doesn't take into account that what he is doing isn't a contradiction unless you define life in a very specific way, which he doesn't do. Shepard actually brings up this point: "we'd prefer to keep our own form." This viewpoint is irrelevant to him: why would he care in what form organic life is preserved so long as it is preserved? Harvesting prevents organic extinction by translating organic life into Reaper form.

 

The second is that the yo dawg meme fails even if the Catalyst simply killed all advanced organic races and didn't make Reapers out of them. There is a difference between "organic life" and "organic lives" and by killing the races capable of creating synthetics he is allowing the lesser races time to flourish. It's the same as tending a plant by snipping obtrusive branches.

 

The yo dawg meme is stupid and distracts from all the valid criticisms of the ending.

[Mcfly616]

Actually, that was never mentioned. It's all about why or why not the catalyst didn't just open up the relay himself. 
He literally says that he made the reapers to solve the problem of organics vs. synthetics.

now you're just going off on a tangent. Your Xzibit meme has nothing to do with the relay. Secondly, your relay question has been discussed extensively. In the first couple pages, in fact. You may want to continue reading backwards. You seem to have forgotten much of the very thread you've participated in so much in your short time here.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

now you're just going off on a tangent. Your Xzibit meme has nothing to do with the relay. Secondly, your relay question has been discussed extensively. In the first couple pages, in fact. You may want to continue reading backwards. You seem to have forgotten much of the very thread you've participated in so much in your short time here.

Hey, I was just posting what someone else asked for. Yes, that's what I said. And I've barely participated in *this* one. 
 

 There's two immediate issues with the yo dawg meme:

 

The first is that the Catalyst sees the Reapers as 1) living beings that 2) archive organic and synthetic races through the uploading of minds and by preserving their genetic information. As an AI sees it, he *is* preserving the lives of these organic and synthetic races, just in a different form. The yo dawg meme doesn't take into account that what he is doing isn't a contradiction unless you define life in a very specific way, which he doesn't do. Shepard actually brings up this point: "we'd prefer to keep our own form." This viewpoint is irrelevant to him: why would he care in what form organic life is preserved so long as it is preserved? Harvesting prevents organic extinction by translating organic life into Reaper form.

 

The second is that the yo dawg meme fails even if the Catalyst simply killed all advanced organic races and didn't make Reapers out of them. There is a difference between "organic life" and "organic lives" and by killing the races capable of creating synthetics he is allowing the lesser races time to flourish. It's the same as tending a plant by snipping obtrusive branches.

If every human is dead, then humanity is extinct. Do you seriously think being in "Reaper form" counts as still being alive? Just because star brat thinks so, doesn't make it make sense. Also, the definition of preserve from google: "maintain (something) in its original or existing state." That's kinda the opposite of preserving "organic life" in Reaper form. All of this only matters if you take his point of view that "conflict is inevitable."

The whole system is still f****** pointless. Eventually, you run out of "lesser races."  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I, as well as multiple people here (who don't even care much for the ending), have specifically explained to you how the Xzibit meme doesn't even begin to grasp the concept of the ending. I'm not going to explain it again. Take the time to look back on the thread.

 

What is there to grasp? You die, the relays explode, and the Normandy crashes. The endings are nearly identical except for the color of the explosions on your screen. If you played enough multiplayer or have enough war assets you can get a breath scene showing a glimmer of hope that Shepard survived. You get nearly the same slide presentation now with the EC. You get a different speech with each ending: one that explains to you the meaning behind each color. But unless you got that breath, what does Shepard care? Shepard is dead. The relays exploded. And the Normandy crashed.

 

The concept of the ending?

 

"All that happened so very long ago."

 

"Will I ever get to the stars?"

 

"One day, my sweet. Out there, there are billions of stars, and around them there are billions of worlds each with a story all their own."

 

"Tell me another story about The Shepard."

 

"It's getting late, but alright, one more story."

[CronoDragoon]

If every human is dead, then humanity is extinct. Do you seriously think being in "Reaper form" counts as still being alive?

 

No, but I'm not the Catalyst. That's the point. An AI views life differently. You don't have to agree with the thing's premises. If you did, then it wouldn't be the villain. But there's no contradiction in logic once you accept its premises.

[ShadowLordXII]

No, but I'm not the Catalyst. That's the point. An AI views life differently. You don't have to agree with the thing's premises. If you did, then it wouldn't be the villain. But there's no contradiction in logic once you accept its premises.

 

Then there's how ME2 states that the protheans failed to be converted into reaper form and so Harbinger resorted to turning indoctrinated protheans into collectors. Aside from said-collectors and Javik, the Catalyst's "solution" has wiped out the prothean race. They are not preserved, they're gone.

 

How many other species likely met this fate? How do we know that half of the species that the Catalyst has "cycled" didn't suffer the prothean's fate or even most of them? There's a high risk that this solution is actually worst than the stated problem.

[SporkFu]

Then there's how ME2 states that the protheans failed to be converted into reaper form and so Harbinger resorted to turning indoctrinated protheans into collectors. Aside from said-collectors and Javik, the Catalyst's "solution" has wiped out the prothean race. They are not preserved, they're gone.

 

How many other species likely met this fate? How do we know that half of the species that the Catalyst has "cycled" didn't suffer the prothean's fate or even most of them? There's a high risk that this solution is actually worst than the stated problem.

I think what happened to the protheans is probably the exception instead of the rule.

[CronoDragoon]

How many other species likely met this fate? How do we know that half of the species that the Catalyst has "cycled" didn't suffer the prothean's fate or even most of them? There's a high risk that this solution is actually worst than the stated problem.

 

It's hard for me to comment on your invented statistics, but I don't see any evidence that the failure rate is high at all. We know of...what? Two repurposed races in the Collectors and Keepers? There's a risk involved, sure; whether it's high or not we have no idea, since any risk will be relative to the risk the Catalyst believes synthetics pose to organic life.

 

Moreover, the Catalyst himself admits that the cycles aren't a perfect solution, only the best one he had available. This is why he's so in favor of you picking Synthesis.

 

But this is what I mean by the silly yo dawg meme distracting from real holes in the story, which mostly center around how the Crucible works (and the question of why the Catalyst can't/won't open the relay. hence this thread).
 

[ShadowLordXII]

I think what happened to the protheans is probably the exception instead of the rule.

 

We really don't know that.

 

It's hard for me to comment on your invented statistics, but I don't see any evidence that the failure rate is high at all. We know of...what? Two repurposed races in the Collectors and Keepers? There's a risk involved, sure; whether it's high or not we have no idea, since any risk will be relative to the risk the Catalyst believes synthetics pose to organic life.

 

Moreover, the Catalyst himself admits that the cycles aren't a perfect solution, only the best one he had available. This is why he's so in favor of you picking Synthesis.

 

But this is what I mean by the silly yo dawg meme distracting from real holes in the story, which mostly center around how the Crucible works (and the question of why the Catalyst can't/won't open the relay. hence this thread).
 

 

That's the point of why I made the thread. It's simply that there isn't any way to explain how Star-Child doesn't contradict Sovereign's actions or role in the plot without resorting to head-canon or hand-waving. I brought up the prothean point, because it illustrates a further reason why the Star-Child is a walking contradiction that needed to go. His existence and motivations just keeps creating questions upon questions that weaken the story's narrative flow.

 

In short, Star-Child will be/is best displayed as a clear example as to why you don't wait until the last minutes of your closing act in the final installment in a long-running series to introduce a plot crucial character. Say what you will about the sequels, but at least the Matrix series had the good sense to introduce the Architect in the second movie rather than the last one. And at least the Star Wars prequels remained consistent about who was the driving antagonistic force throughout the trilogy.

 

To this day, I still don't understand why Bioware was so adamant on keeping Star-Child in the game. If they really wanted Shepard to speak with a holographic child, then why not just have it be the on-board AI of the Crucible or a projection of the Virmire martyr or something else like that. What would ME3 lose if the team decided to lose the Star-Child?

 

And don't say Artistic Integrity.

[rekn2]

you're basing your definition of a 'retcon' on Sovereigns vague words (which could easily be perceived as arrogance)? That's about as plausible as stating Vigils speculations are accepted facts.

its a retcon any way you cut it.

 

 

i also never said anything about vigil...why bring it up? youre bringing up something easily defeated for no other reason than defeating it, stop.

[Iakus]

why do people still argue over this stupid ****?

 

it was a retcon. all credibility is gone. this is all the fault of upper management. make-it-up-as-you-go, musical-chairs-for-writers garbage.

 

 

its obvious were all upset and i honestly cant wait for the new game. i hope its so left field the original ME doesnt even come into play. i hope they learned from their mistake.

 

BW, dont do stupid **** like this again!

 

Sadly, Bioware to this day hasn't exhibited any real understanding of what went wrong.  While it can be hoped they don't pull stuff like this again, it's more likely that they think all we need is even more detail on how an ending like this is actually a brilliant masterpiece.

[KaiserShep]

I think what happened to the protheans is probably the exception instead of the rule.

 

I don't think they were going to preserve the krogan either. Remember, they didn't bother harvesting them; they were gassing the planet to wipe them out. Based on this behavior, I think it's a safe assumption that among the countless species wiped out, they did something similar to a great deal of them.

[CronoDragoon]

In short, Star-Child will be/is best displayed as a clear example as to why you don't wait until the last minutes of your closing act in the final installment in a long-running series to introduce a plot crucial character. Say what you will about the sequels, but at least the Matrix series had the good sense to introduce the Architect in the second movie rather than the last one.

 

I agree. Ultimately it doesn't matter if the Catalyst's actions makes sense on its own terms because it's still introduced way too late in the trilogy with not enough setup. But I do really like the Leviathan backstory, so I'd prefer they keep the Catalyst - tweaking it to explain it's role on the Citadel - and simply provide more foreshadowing during ME3. I can't remember if it was this thread, but I've brought up the possibility that BW could have cut the Cerberus coup (which barely makes sense anyway) and put in a mission that delves into the story of the people who make the Crucible (without revealing how it works). This would provide another opportunity to flesh out organics vs. synthetics while further foreshadowing the Catalyst.

[Ithurael]

To the OP, Couldn't we keep both in the story?

 

I mean all we would need to do is change I think two lines that the Catalyst says.

 

"I Control The Reapers, they are my Solution" Can Become: "I Created The Reapers, they are my solution"

 

"I embody the collective consciousness of all Reapers"  Can Becom: "I gave the reapers drive and will to fulfill the cycle" (or something like that)

 

This way we keep the Catalyst, plug a few plotholes, Reapers stay Independent, There are no more retcons, and I think that solves about 95% of all issues...

 

Though...now that I think about it...it opens up a few possible issues for Control and definitly Synthesis, but that is a discussion I think for another time.

 

Just my two cents...

[ShadowLordXII]

To the OP, Couldn't we keep both in the story?

 

I mean all we would need to do is change I think two lines that the Catalyst says.

 

"I Control The Reapers, they are my Solution" Can Become: "I Created The Reapers, they are my solution"

 

"I embody the collective consciousness of all Reapers"  Can Becom: "I gave the reapers drive and will to fulfill the cycle" (or something like that)

 

This way we keep the Catalyst, plug a few plotholes, Reapers stay Independent, There are no more retcons, and I think that solves about 95% of all issues...

 

Though...now that I think about it...it opens up a few possible issues for Control and definitly Synthesis, but that is a discussion I think for another time.

 

Just my two cents...

 

With all of the information that we have about the Catalyst and his role regarding the reapers and the cycles, we can't keep him in without causing the plot of the first game to collapse in on itself and that's the point of my OP.

 

I agree. Ultimately it doesn't matter if the Catalyst's actions makes sense on its own terms because it's still introduced way too late in the trilogy with not enough setup. But I do really like the Leviathan backstory, so I'd prefer they keep the Catalyst - tweaking it to explain it's role on the Citadel - and simply provide more foreshadowing during ME3. I can't remember if it was this thread, but I've brought up the possibility that BW could have cut the Cerberus coup (which barely makes sense anyway) and put in a mission that delves into the story of the people who make the Crucible (without revealing how it works). This would provide another opportunity to flesh out organics vs. synthetics while further foreshadowing the Catalyst.

 

Nah, just get rid of the brat. There's no point in wasting good writing on a bad idea. The main theme of Mass Effect was never about organics vs synthetics. The central conflict wasn't about solving some metaphysical dilemna concerning the rising autonomy of robots vs the inherent survival instinct of their creators.

 

The main theme of Mass Effect was about the unification and reconciliation of differing individuals and species for a greater beneficiary common good. The Central Conflict of the story was the fight against the reapers and keeping them from wiping out the galaxy. Events and actions in the first two games and even 95% of Mass Effect 3 support both concepts. The Star-Child and his Circular Logic are both out of place and inherently nonsensical for varying reasons apart from what I'd posted in the OP.

[CronoDragoon]

Nah, just get rid of the brat. There's no point in wasting good writing on a bad idea. The main theme of Mass Effect was never about organics vs synthetics.

 

 

According to the writers since ME1, yes it was.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

According to the writers since ME1, yes it was.

 

Yeah they decided this after they wrote ME3. lol.