981 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

I don't think they were going to preserve the krogan either. Remember, they didn't bother harvesting them; they were gassing the planet to wipe them out. Based on this behavior, I think it's a safe assumption that among the countless species wiped out, they did something similar to a great deal of them.

Except that the difference is the protheans were the dominant species of their cycle, the krogan weren't. In fact, until shep cured the genophage -- assuming that he doesn't sabotage it -- the krogan were fated to die out anyway.

[Iakus]

According to the writers since ME1, yes it was.

 

I must have missed that what with the rachni and the thorians taking up 2/3 of ME1's main plot.

 

Not to mention flying around in my space ship with an AI installed as I go pwning assorted (organic) merc groups in ME2

[Daemul]

I must have missed that what with the rachni and the thorians taking up 2/3 of ME1's main plot.

 

 

We fought Geth in every main mission. 

[von uber]

Not in ME2 we didn't.

[Daemul]

Not in ME2 we didn't.

 

I was talking about ME1.

[Eryri]

However, The Geth that we fought were revealed to be a breakaway minority of the total Geth population in ME2. The Majority Geth, represented by our ally Legion, had no interest in conflict with organics. Furthermore we discovered that the heretics had been hacked and subverted by Sovereign, who in fact was not a pure synthetic at all, but an organic / synthetic hybrid, blurring the lines even further.

ME2 pretty much subverted the synthetics vs organics theme of ME1. That was one of the reasons why the conclusion of ME3 seemed like such a shocking and unwelcome regression to a theme I thought had already been satisfactorily resolved.

[SwobyJ]

Catalyst is more for the next game, not the current trilogy.

[rekn2]

Catalyst is more for the next game, not the current trilogy.

you ****** give me nightmares

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah they decided this after they wrote ME3. lol. 

 

No, they said this when ME1 was released.

 

I must have missed that what with the rachni and the thorians taking up 2/3 of ME1's main plot.

 

Not to mention flying around in my space ship with an AI installed as I go pwning assorted (organic) merc groups in ME2

 

Yes, you missed it, somehow, even when Sovereign showed up spouting "puny organics" this, and Shepard responding "u machine" that. If you want to argue that organic/synthetic relations aren't the only theme in ME, that is clear. But it's the primary theme of the Reaper plot, and always has been.

 

However, The Geth that we fought were revealed to be a breakaway minority of the total Geth population in ME2. The Majority Geth, represented by our ally Legion, had no interest in conflict with organics. Furthermore we discovered that the heretics had been hacked and subverted by Sovereign, who in fact was not a pure synthetic at all, but an organic / synthetic hybrid, blurring the lines even further.

ME2 pretty much subverted the synthetics vs organics theme of ME1. That was one of the reasons why the conclusion of ME3 seemed like such a shocking and unwelcome regression to a theme I thought had already been satisfactorily resolved.

 

But that subversion is still about organics and synthetics. ME2 turned the "vs." theme into "what are the differences? co-existence possible?" Then, ME3 comes back with the villain issuing the ultimate challenge to your newly developed hope for organic/synthetic relations. I've always said that the big weakness of the endings is that they picked the wrong drawback for Destroy. Had Destroy mandated some other catastrophic consequence but kept the synthetics alive, there'd be no issue with the organic/synthetic theme, because you'd be able to more clearly define your resistance to the Catalyst's claims.

[ShadowLordXII]

No, they said this when ME1 was released. Now you know.

 

Source on that? My latest dates back to 2012: http://io9.com/58904...out-mass-effect

 

Granted, the Synthetic/Organic complex was a major theme. But that theme was a smaller part of the larger theme of unification for a greater beneficiary gain. In ME2, the best outcome for the Tali/Legion argument is to console them to work together. Which in turn leads into ME3 where the best outcome of the Rannoch Arc is convincing the Geth and Quarians to put aside their differences and work to build their future together. Solving this conflict ties back into the real overarching arc of unification to resolve the main central conflict which is to stop the reapers.

 

Even the reapers themselves are hybrid synthetic/organic beings who use synthetics as tools when possible/necessary and wipe out organics to use their genetic paste to expand their numbers. They were a menace beyond organic or synthetic labels and thought little to nothing of organics or synthetics.

 

The closing arc of the trilogy should have been dedicated to resolving the reaper conflict, not throwing in metaphysical and pseudo-philosophical nonsense to change the context at the last minute.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ Crono: where did they say that the story was going to be about synthetics vs organics before ME1 was released?

[Eryri]

But that subversion is still about organics and synthetics. ME2 turned the "vs." theme into "what are the differences? co-existence possible?"

Perhaps, but I would argue that by the end of ME2, and certainly by the end of the Rannoch arc and Edi's romance arc, those two questions had already been definitely answered - "nothing of significance" and "yes" respectively. To me, the Geth had become just another interesting group of people on my side, and Edi just another valued member of my crew. The organic / synthetic distinction had already been rendered obsolete to the plot, to be replaced by the distinction between those who wished to live harmoniously with everyone else, and those who would rather dominate, whether they happened to be made of metal or flesh (or both, as it happened). To me this was a far more powerful and universal theme than a very esoteric one about relations with hypothetical synthetic beings, which don't yet exist in the real world.

[rekn2]

No, they said this when ME1 was released.

 

 

Yes, you missed it, somehow, even when Sovereign showed up spouting "puny organics" this, and Shepard responding "u machine" that. If you want to argue that organic/synthetic relations aren't the only theme in ME, that is clear. But it's the primary theme of the Reaper plot, and always has been.

 

 

But that subversion is still about organics and synthetics. ME2 turned the "vs." theme into "what are the differences? co-existence possible?" Then, ME3 comes back with the villain issuing the ultimate challenge to your newly developed hope for organic/synthetic relations. I've always said that the big weakness of the endings is that they picked the wrong drawback for Destroy. Had Destroy mandated some other catastrophic consequence but kept the synthetics alive, there'd be no issue with the organic/synthetic theme, because you'd be able to more clearly define your resistance to the Catalyst's claims.

thats not even the argument. its the neutering of the reapers by having space kid be their ruler. thats what this thread is about.

 

youre right, its allways been us vs them but "them" were a lot scarier when we knew less about them but even that isnt the main problem. instead of each being an independent nation they were reduced to a childs RC toys. not only that but the logic it was written to use was absurd. this goes all the way back to "a good idea with poor execution" or "bad writing".

 

just because you know everything about something doesnt mean it should be less scary. it was up to the writers and they failed.

[Iakus]

No, they said this when ME1 was released.

citation needed

 

 

Yes, you missed it, somehow, even when Sovereign showed up spouting "puny organics" this, and Shepard responding "u machine" that. If you want to argue that organic/synthetic relations aren't the only theme in ME, that is clear. But it's the primary theme of the Reaper plot, and always has been. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Sovereign was spouting "puny organics"  The enemy was the Reapers.  And geth were on their side.  As well as krogan and asari.  

 

Oh, and a turian Spectre too.  

 

And since we faced mainly a bunch of mercs in ME2, was the theme changed to organic vs organic conflict?>

 

 

 

But that subversion is still about organics and synthetics. ME2 turned the "vs." theme into "what are the differences? co-existence possible?" Then, ME3 comes back with the villain issuing the ultimate challenge to your newly developed hope for organic/synthetic relations. I've always said that the big weakness of the endings is that they picked the wrong drawback for Destroy. Had Destroy mandated some other catastrophic consequence but kept the synthetics alive, there'd be no issue with the organic/synthetic theme, because you'd be able to more clearly define your resistance to the Catalyst's claims.

 

ME2 was running around shooting random mercs and occasional minions of the Reapers.  Sorry, but Tali and Legion's missions alone don't make for a trilogy-spanning theme.  Especially when their problems are exclusive to their species.  Might as well say the krogan vs salarians and turians were a trilogy spanning theme of, I dunno, genocide or something.  You've got just as much, if not more evidence of that.

[Vortex13]

thats not even the argument. its the neutering of the reapers by having space kid be their ruler. thats what this thread is about.

 

youre right, its allways been us vs them but "them" were a lot scarier when we knew less about them but even that isnt the main problem. instead of each being an independent nation they were reduced to a childs RC toys. not only that but the logic it was written to use was absurd. this goes all the way back to "a good idea with poor execution" or "bad writing".

 

just because you know everything about something doesnt mean it should be less scary. it was up to the writers and they failed.

 

 

That's more or less how I feel about the Catalyst; he's the little whiny Anakin to the Reapers' Darth Vader.

 

For your second and third points, the main problem with the Catalyst's (and by extension the Reapers') motivation was that it was too convoluted and broke the flow of the narrative. Apart from the actual activating of the Crucible choices, the entire ending is one huge (mostly one sided) exposition dump about why the Reapers reap. A fifteen minute monologue that explains the motivations of the antagonist at the very end of the story doesn't work; especially if one was trying to go for the whole Cuthulu theme. In every example I have seen or read, the best explanations for your eldritch horrors, or elder gods is to have a very simple concept and one that helps reinforce their 'alien' nature.

 

The Tyranids of WH40K want to consume all life. That's it. There are no ulterior goals, no circular logic loopholes, just "The Other Wants to Eat Us." Such a motivation is short, and easy to digest (if you excuse the pun), but it also strengthens the alien, unknown, Cuthulu-esque vibe of these extra-galatic invaders. We as the audience can see their motivation, acknowledge that it fits with what we know of the aliens, and move on with the story.

 

The explanation of the Reapers though; apart from neutering them as you said; breaks the flow of the narrative. While the "Yo Dawg" meme is considered by some to be a childish, lowbrow response to the endings; it does highlight the contradicting nature of the Reaper motivation. "We must stop you from being killed by machines, so we will kill you with machines." That motivation forces the audience to extract themselves from the narrative and go "Wait. What?" 

[KaiserShep]

However, The Geth that we fought were revealed to be a breakaway minority of the total Geth population in ME2. The Majority Geth, represented by our ally Legion, had no interest in conflict with organics. Furthermore we discovered that the heretics had been hacked and subverted by Sovereign, who in fact was not a pure synthetic at all, but an organic / synthetic hybrid, blurring the lines even further.

ME2 pretty much subverted the synthetics vs organics theme of ME1. That was one of the reasons why the conclusion of ME3 seemed like such a shocking and unwelcome regression to a theme I thought had already been satisfactorily resolved.

 

Parts of ME3 made this worse in that it became apparent that the geth were not the only ones who were hijacked by the reapers to use against the rest of the galaxy. Javik tells us that they took over the Zha'til much in the same fashion that they did the geth. And of course there's EDI, our solid ally for the entirety of two games.

[CronoDragoon]

Source on that? My latest dates back to 2012: http://io9.com/58904...out-mass-effect

 

Even if I didn't have a source, that article tells you they thought organics/synthetics was the main theme since at the latest ME2. However:

 

@ Crono: where did they say that the story was going to be about synthetics vs organics before ME1 was released?

 

 

citation needed

 

Citation given, for I am a generous god. From the ME1 art book:

 

 

This says that even before the geth were changed to be synthetic, the writers believed organics/synthetics was ME1's underlying theme.

[Iakus]

 

 

Citation given, for I am a generous god. From the ME1 art book:

 

 

This says that even before the geth were changed to be synthetic, the writers believed organics/synthetics was ME1's underlying theme.

 

Then I will simply have to say they did an awful, awful job in conveying it.  An army of indoctrinated batarians instead of Heretic geth would not have changed ME1 in the slightest.

 

And the organic/synthetic angle in ME2 was virtually nonexistant, what with ME2 and it's random-merc enemies doing nothing to promote this concept.

[CronoDragoon]

Then I will simply have to say they did an awful, awful job in conveying it.  An army of indoctrinated batarians instead of Heretic geth would not have changed ME1 in the slightest.

I think you're underselling the organic/synthetic angle in ME1. Saren's entire spiel is about combining organics/synthetics; it's essentially a precursor argument for Synthesis. And, again, the first time you meet a Reaper, he makes it clear that the conflict between Reapers and the galaxy is about organics vs. synthetics.

 

 

 

And the organic/synthetic angle in ME2 was virtually nonexistant, what with ME2 and it's random-merc enemies doing nothing to promote this concept.

 

Besides EDI, Legion/the geth, Overlord, and the Reaper missions, you mean?

 

Clearly there are aspects of the ME universe that aren't directly about the organic/synthetic thing. That's inarguable, I think. But the Reaper plot is, and by extension the "main" plot of the ME trilogy.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think you're underselling the organic/synthetic angle in ME1. Saren's entire spiel is about combining organics/synthetics; it's essentially a precursor argument for Synthesis. And, again, the first time you meet a Reaper, he makes it clear that the conflict between Reapers and the galaxy is about organics vs. synthetics.

 

I agree the conflict was very much at the forefront in the first game. However, it completely changed as the series went on which made it's sudden reintroduction at the end of ME3 very jarring; especially since the game beat you over the head with how nice and sympathetic EDI and the Geth were.

[CronoDragoon]

I agree the conflict was very much at the forefront in the first game. However, it completely changed as the series went on which made it's sudden reintroduction at the end of ME3 very jarring; especially since the game beat you over the head with how nice and sympathetic EDI and the Geth were.

 

Let me put it this way, since I agree that it was jarring: I don't find it surprising that the Reaper plot is about organic/synthetic conflict. I think that's obvious. What I think is jarring is that the Reapers are doing what they do to prevent organic/synthetic conflict. That's what was jarring to me. It takes a lot of intellectual gymnastics to justify the Reapers in this way. Even if ultimately it makes sense from a strictly logical point of view, it's not intuitive at all.

 

Ruggly and I came up with an alternate Leviathan storyline where the Leviathans built Harbinger out of vanity: let us make our image eternal! Harbinger, inheriting their arrogance trait, turned all the synthetic and organic races against the Leviathans using indoctrination (or whatever equivalent for synthetics) and harvested them, then began creating more Reapers out of further cycles just because. There's really no need for the Starchild in this scenario, and you preserve what I consider to be good backstory with the Leviathans. It's also intuitive to what we already know: the Reapers reap because they think Reapers are the greatest things ever and who wouldn't want to 'ascend' to become them?

[Iakus]

 

I think you're underselling the organic/synthetic angle in ME1. Saren's entire spiel is about combining organics/synthetics; it's essentially a precursor argument for Synthesis. And, again, the first time you meet a Reaper, he makes it clear that the conflict between Reapers and the galaxy is about organics vs. synthetics.

 

 

Sovereign makes it clearl that the conflict is between Reapers and organics.  It held the geth in contrmpt, remember.  Not to mention the thorian, rachni, and tank-bred krogan we fought were all organic.  AS well as Benexia's asari. 

 

The Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions also dwarfed the Morning Wars as far as destructiveness goes.

 

We were given to show the Reapers were a threat, yeah.  But not synthetics in general.  Organics were a far greater threat to themselves.

 

 

Besides EDI, Legion/the geth, Overlord, and the Reaper missions, you mean?

 

Clearly there are aspects of the ME universe that aren't directly about the organic/synthetic thing. That's inarguable, I think. But the Reaper plot is, and by extension the "main" plot of the ME trilogy.

 

 

Organic/synthetic relations as far as EDI go came to a head when Joker unshackled her.  Otherwise it was her and Joker playing Odd Couple in the cockpit.

 

Overlord was dlc, and to me played more into a theme of man's inhumanity to man, what with the David angle.

 

Reaper missions?  In ME2?  Where?  Aside from the Derelict Reaper mission and one or two Reaper artifact side missions, I don't recall Reapers playing a role at all outside of Harbinger's "asuming direct control" 

 

Sure I'll grant you Legion.  That's what, three conversatons and one mission.  Clearly this dominated the entire trilogy

 

Or maybe it was on equal footing with Mordin's talk of the genophage.  Samara vs Morinth, and Jacob's missing father

[Vortex13]

Let me put it this way, since I agree that it was jarring: I don't find it surprising that the Reaper plot is about organic/synthetic conflict. I think that's obvious. What I think is jarring is that the Reapers are doing what they do to prevent organic/synthetic conflict. That's what was jarring to me. It takes a lot of intellectual gymnastics to justify the Reapers in this way. Even if ultimately it makes sense from a strictly logical point of view, it's not intuitive at all.

 

Ruggly and I came up with an alternate Leviathan storyline where the Leviathans built Harbinger out of vanity: let us make our image eternal! Harbinger, inheriting their arrogance trait, turned all the synthetic and organic races against the Leviathans using indoctrination (or whatever equivalent for synthetics) and harvested them, then began creating more Reapers out of further cycles just because. There's really no need for the Starchild in this scenario, and you preserve what I consider to be good backstory with the Leviathans. It's also intuitive to what we already know: the Reapers reap because they think Reapers are the greatest things ever and who wouldn't want to 'ascend' to become them?

 

 

That I could live with.

 

I still would have preferred the whole "Reproduction/Harvest" angle being the sole the motivation though.

[CronoDragoon]

Sovereign makes it clearl that the conflict is between Reapers and organics.

 

And how does Shepard respond? You remember, right?

 

The trilogy ends with the Reaper plot. The Reaper plot is about organics/synthetics. If the trilogy ended with the genophage arc, you might have a point. But it doesn't, as the Reaper plot is the main plot.

[Eryri]

 
Ruggly and I came up with an alternate Leviathan storyline where the Leviathans built Harbinger out of vanity: let us make our image eternal! Harbinger, inheriting their arrogance trait, turned all the synthetic and organic races against the Leviathans using indoctrination (or whatever equivalent for synthetics) and harvested them, then began creating more Reapers out of further cycles just because. There's really no need for the Starchild in this scenario, and you preserve what I consider to be good backstory with the Leviathans. It's also intuitive to what we already know: the Reapers reap because they think Reapers are the greatest things ever and who wouldn't want to 'ascend' to become them?

That's a much better motivation. Simple, direct and effective.