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[Iakus]

 

The trilogy ends with the Reaper plot. The Reaper plot is about organics/synthetics. If the trilogy ended with the genophage arc, you might have a point. But it doesn't, as the Reaper plot is the main plot.

 

That makes no sense.

 

Deciding the main plot isn't a matter of "pick a card, any card" and going with that.  It has to weave throughout the story.  A general conflict between organics and synthetics was never a main theme.  Heck even conflict between the galaxy and Reapers took a backseat in ME2.

 

The closest we ever got was the geth/quarian conflict, which was always limited to just those two species.  And then the Reapers vs everybody.  Which, it turned out, really was against everybody, organic and synthetic both, as the geth were just tools to be used and then discarded.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

ME1 is about chasing Saren to the Conduit. 
ME2 is about stopping the Collectors from abducting human colonies. 
ME3 is about gathering resources to build the crucible. 

Not seeing any Organic Vs. Synthetic conflict in there. 

Even so, it's still completely stupid that Synthetic/Organic is considered a big thing in the MEU. All hte wars in the modern galaxies' history are the Rachni War, , the Krogan Rebellions, and the Quarian/Geth conflict. 

And guess what? The first two were far more destructive than the third. 

[CronoDragoon]

That makes no sense.

 

Deciding the main plot isn't a matter of "pick a card, any card" and going with that.  It has to weave throughout the story.  

 

It's a matter of what the most important plot is for the story, which the Reaper plot is. And the Reaper plot does weave through the story. 

 

The theme of the most important plot in the story is about organics and synthetics, and the theme is sprinkled elsewhere in the story. It doesn't need to pervade every story arc. If you want to argue other themes exist in the ME universe, fine, whatever. But the Reaper plot is about organics and synthetics.

 

And you didn't answer my question. What does Shepard say in response to Sovereign's "puny organics" speech?

[CronoDragoon]

ME1 is about chasing Saren to the Conduit. 
ME2 is about stopping the Collectors from abducting human colonies. 
ME3 is about gathering resources to build the crucible. 

 

You're conflating different ways people use "about" here. We're talking about themes.

 

Even so, it's still completely stupid that Synthetic/Organic is considered a big thing in the MEU. All hte wars in the modern galaxies' history are the Rachni War, , the Krogan Rebellions, and the Quarian/Geth conflict.

 

All signs point to the the Reapers causing the rachni war. Read "Causes":

 

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Rachni_Wars

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

You're conflating different ways people use "about" here. We're talking about themes.

The Geth in ME1 were enslaved by Sovereign and Saren. No Organic/Synthetic conflict there. 

In ME2, there are three side missions out of what (twenty?) side missions that even have "synthetics" in them. 

In ME3 you have the Rannoch arch and the Star Brat. 

I wouldn't exactly call that an overarching theme. 

[Iakus]

It's a matter of what the most important plot is for the story, which the Reaper plot is. And the Reaper plot does weave through the story. 

 

The theme of the most important plot in the story is about organics and synthetics, and the theme is sprinkled elsewhere in the story. It doesn't need to pervade every story arc.

 

And the Reapers being synthetic was incidental to the story.  Heck the end of ME2 shows they're not even entirely synthetic! 

 

It was never "synthetics versus the galaxy" it was "Reapers versus the galaxy"  There is no history of synthetics in general wanting to wipe out organics.  At best we have the Heretic geth, which were a tiny minority.

 

The Catalyst telling us "this is what it's all about" doesn't make it so.

 

Edit:  if you wantd to say racism in general was a theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, you might have a case.

[CronoDragoon]

The Geth in ME1 were enslaved by Sovereign and Saren. No Organic/Synthetic conflict there. 

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. Did you actually listen when Sovereign and Saren spoke?

 

In ME2, there are three side missions out of what (twenty?) side missions that even have "synthetics" in them.

 

And EDI. But there's no denying ME2 is the least focused on organics/synthetics of the three games. It also has by far the least to do with the Reapers. That's no coincidence.

In ME3 you have the Rannoch arch and the Star Brat.

 

Leaving out obvious examples doesn't make your argument look strong. Hint: EDI. Also, "Starbrat" is a stand-in for "Reapers" who are sort of a big deal in this game.

[CronoDragoon]

And the Reapers being synthetic was incidental to the story.  Heck the end of ME2 shows they're not even entirely synthetic!

 
I'm not sure what you mean by incidental. Sovereign being synthetic is central to his character. Saren trying to combine organic and synthetic strengths to appease the Reapers is central to his character. This is like saying Frodo being a hobbit was incidental to Lord of the Rings.

It was never "synthetics versus the galaxy" it was "Reapers versus the galaxy"  There is no history of synthetics in general wanting to wipe out organics.  At best we have the Heretic geth, which were a tiny minority.

I never said the theme of the series was synthetics wanting to wipe out organics. Well, besides the fact that this is what you think the Reapers are doing.

The Catalyst telling us "this is what it's all about" doesn't make it so.

That's true.

Edit:  if you wantd to say racism in general was a theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, you might have a case.

Well, I certainly can't deny that the question of racism extrapolated to species is a big part of the series.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I don't even know how to respond to this. Did you actually listen when Sovereign and Saren spoke?

 

And EDI. But there's no denying ME2 is the least focused on organics/synthetics of the three games. It also has by far the least to do with the Reapers. That's no coincidence.

 

Leaving out obvious examples doesn't make your argument look strong. Hint: EDI. Also, "Starbrat" is a stand-in for "Reapers" who are sort of a big deal in this game.

Yeah. Saren was indoctrinated and Sovereign talked about he and his buds have fun in controlling life, then ending it forshits and giggles. 

EDI was a minor character, and I wouldn't say she was involved in any conflict. How is it not a coincidence. 

EDI was never in any conflict with anyone, but the Reapers. Well, even if you consider the Reapers as "synthetics", I'm pretty sure there are more missions with Cerberus. 

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah. Saren was indoctrinated and Sovereign talked about he and his buds have fun in controlling life, then ending it forshits and giggles. 

EDI was a minor character, and I wouldn't say she was involved in any conflict. How is it not a coincidence. 

EDI was never in any conflict with anyone, but the Reapers. Well, even if you consider the Reapers as "synthetics", I'm pretty sure there are more missions with Cerberus.

EDI was the rogue synthetic on Mars, so yes she was. Not that her being in conflict is what I'm arguing here.

I think we're getting hung up on the word "conflict". I've already said that ME2 transforms the question from one of hostilities to highlighting differences and the question of equality. The Reaper plot specifically though is about conflict between synthetics and organics, at least as far as the Reapers are concerned.

[Iakus]

 
I'm not sure what you mean by incidental. Sovereign being synthetic is central to his character. Saren trying to combine organic and synthetic strengths to appease the Reapers is central to his character. This is like saying Frodo being a hobbit was incidental to Lord of the Rings. 
 

Sovereign was an immortal, supremely powerful...thing.  That he and the other Reapers were synthetic really didn't factor into it.  They were "the end of everything"  Organic and synthetic both.

 

I never said the theme of the series was synthetics wanting to wipe out organics. Well, besides the fact that this is what you think the Reapers are doing.
 

 

But you did say that the big theme was "organic vs synthetic" which there is little evidence to support was true on a galactic scale.  We have one incident of a war between an organic and synthetic race, which was confined to their own little region. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ME1 is about chasing Saren to the Conduit.

 
... to stop the Reapers (synthetics) from wiping out the galaxy (organics).
 

ME2 is about stopping the Collectors from abducting human colonies.

 
... to stop the Reapers' (synthetics) proxy army (also "synthetic" form of life by definition) from wiping out humans (organics).
 

ME3 is about gathering resources to build the crucible.

 
... again to stop the Reapers (synthetics) from wiping out the galaxy (organics).
 

Not seeing any Organic Vs. Synthetic conflict in there.

 
The result of looking too hard for something that's not hidden in the first place.

And yes, the Reapers are synthetic life, even if some organic components go into them. What's organic is them is merely data-storage, which is not foreign to any synthetics to begin with, they just tend to use hard-drives instead. Apart from that, nothing about the Reapers is organic-like. They do not eat. They do not drink. They do not sleep. They do not reproduce sexually. There's nothing inherently organic about them. They are, for all intents and purposes, synthetic forms of life.

 

The Reapers/Catalyst embody the solution and problem both at the same time.

[Iakus]

I think we're getting hung up on the word "conflict". I've already said that ME2 transforms the question from one of hostilities to highlighting differences and the question of equality. The Reaper plot though is about conflict between synthetics and organics.

How?

 

We have exactly three missions fighting Collctors.

 

We have Legion's loyalty mission

 

We have EDI being unshackled.

 

And dozens and dozens of mercs to kill, and assorted bad@$$es to recruit and work their personal issues out with.

[CronoDragoon]

Sovereign was an immortal, supremely powerful...thing.  That he and the other Reapers were synthetic really didn't factor into it.  They were "the end of everything"  Organic and synthetic both.

Sovereign disagrees with you. Are you saying it doesn't matter what the characters say?

But you did say that the big theme was "organic vs synthetic" which there is little evidence to support was true on a galactic scale. We have one incident of a war between an organic and synthetic race, which was confined to their own little region.

Um, the Reapers?

[CronoDragoon]

How?
 
We have exactly three missions fighting Collctors.
 
We have Legion's loyalty mission
 
We have EDI being unshackled.
 
And dozens and dozens of mercs to kill, and assorted bad@$$es to recruit and work their personal issues out with.

Considering how all-over-the-place ME2 is, that's actually quite a bit. Or are you saying the theme of the ME series is killing mercs?

[Iakus]

Sovereign disagrees with you. Are you saying it doesn't matter what the characters say?
 

And what was going to be the geth's fate once the organics were dealt with?

 

Um, the Reapers?

 

Um, the self-fufilling prophecy?

[Iakus]

Considering how all-over-the-place ME2 is, that's actually quite a bit. Or are you saying the theme of the ME series is killing mercs?

 

Judging by ME2, yes.

[CronoDragoon]

And what was going to be the geth's fate once the organics were dealt with?

Not good, that's for sure. What about it?
 

Um, the self-fufilling prophecy?

And?

[Iakus]

Not good, that's for sure. What about it?
 

It means the Reapers were in conflict with both organics and synthetics.  They threatened everyone.  Therefore ,it was not strictly an organic vs synthetic conflict.

 

And?

 

And this means the very concept of an organic-synthetic conflict is flawed at its foundation.  Might as well say Loghain's paranoia about Orlesian Grey Wardens was valid in DAO.

[CronoDragoon]

It means the Reapers were in conflict with both organics and synthetics.  They threatened everyone.  Therefore ,it was not strictly an organic vs synthetic conflict.

The Reapers brainwashed the heretic geth in order to reap organics. Until ME3, when it was asserted that synthetic races are harvested as well, organics were the goal of the Reapers. ME3 did far more to bring nuance to the conflict than ME1 ever did.
 
 

And this means the very concept of an organic-synthetic conflict is flawed at its foundation.

No, it doesn't. It's actually proof of concept.

Here's an analogy. I tell you that unless you lock your home someone is going to rob it. You don't lock your home. Then I rob it. Does that mean you were justified in not locking it?

[SwobyJ]

All of the ME2 missions have thematic relevance, even when they're not directly about synthetics vs organics. Its all in the script.

 

 

I really want to say more, but it'll just be handwaved by Iakus.

[Iakus]

The Reapers brainwashed the heretic geth in order to reap organics. Until ME3, when it was asserted that synthetic races are harvested as well, organics were the goal of the Reapers. ME3 did far more to bring nuance to the conflict than ME1 ever did.
 
 

How that that add nuance?  It only supports that Reapers were not an "organic vs synthetic" conflict, but a "Reapers vs everybody"

 

No, it doesn't. It's actually proof of concept.

So does that make the Krogan Rebellions proof of concept that organics will eventually wipe out all life in the galaxy?

[Iakus]

All of the ME2 missions have thematic relevance, even when they're not directly about synthetics vs organics. Its all in the script.

 

 

I really want to say more, but it'll just be handwaved by Iakus.

 

Depends on the theme, I guess.

 

But I fail to see how Jacob's daddy issues has anything to do with organic-synthetic conflict.

[CronoDragoon]

How that that add nuance?  It only supports that Reapers were not an "organic vs synthetic" conflict, but a "Reapers vs everybody"

It's always been known that the Reapers subjugate synthetic races for their goal, which deals with organics. The nuance here is that even though their goal is still to save organics, they also save synthetics instead of simply destroying them. That's how it adds nuance.
 

So does that make the Krogan Rebellions proof of concept that organics will eventually wipe out all life in the galaxy?

Had the krogans the ability to exterminate everyone and chosen not to, then yeah. Heck, the Leviathans are proof of concept that it's possible for one organic race to dominate and/or kill all others. And if that's what the story was about, then sure. But it's not about the Leviathans, except insofar as they led to the creation of the Reapers.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Nuance? You're indoctrinated. Hogwash! So the reapers killed synthetics after they were done with them. They killed organics too. How does ME3 change that? They kill organics, throw them in a blender and pump them in a thing, and put it in a ship. They're still dead. Whatever doesn't fit in there, they kill. Synthetics? What do you do with them? They're software? They don't fit into your grand scheme of things. You erase them. They're dead.

 

They preserve the organic's DNA. They use the synthetics as weapons to crush organic resistance, and when they're done they destroy them. Synthetics are useless. They're primitive programming to them.

 

This just goes to further validate Marmalade Theory. Are the blackberries in the jar of preserves you purchased still alive? No. But they're preserved.