981 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

They preserve the organic's DNA. They use the synthetics as weapons to crush organic resistance, and when they're done they destroy them. Synthetics are useless. They're primitive programming to them.

What? That's not what happens in the story.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It never got that far. I wiped out the geth and the reapers. They used them against the Protheans, though.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 avril 2014 - 07:04 .

[SwobyJ]

Depends on the theme, I guess.

 

But I fail to see how Jacob's daddy issues has anything to do with organic-synthetic conflict.

 

It does. A lot.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It does. A lot.

 

I agree. There were mechs involved that were programmed by Jacob's father. Mechs are synthetic. We were shooting them. Therefore organic vs. synthetic. Now what would have really highlighted the theme would have been if the mechs rebelled against Jacob's father.

[SwobyJ]

I was talking more about Ronald's behavior, as the superior officer, once he had a taste of significant power and control over other people.

 

It may not have been an outright all-organics vs all-synthetics scenario, but it offers slight insight into what can happen to any intelligence that is not under check.

 

But your bit is easily part of this. The mechs were his tools to ensure his order was unchallenged, as the only one left with a superior mind - until recently.

 

 

All of the missions have important details and themes. All of them.

[Big Bad]

In my opinion, organics vs. synthetics was indeed a major theme of the series.  That said, it changed heavily over time.  In ME1, the idea that synthetics and organics were destined for conflict seems at least plausible, but as the series progresses and new characters and information are introduced, the general conclusion that the series seemed to be reaching was that despite their differences, organics and synthetics could in fact persist together to the betterment of both groups. 

 

To me, this was a very satisfying thematic arc.  Making peace between the Geth and Quarians was one of my favorite parts of the trilogy.  And then the catalyst came along and took a giant dump on everything, and told me that despite all my Shepard's experiences to the contrary, synthetics and organics must necessarily be enemies.  That if synthetics were allowed to exist, all organic life would die (as laughable as that sounds).  To this day, I still don't get what Walters and Hudson were thinking.

[SwobyJ]

In my opinion, organics vs. synthetics was indeed a major theme of the series.  That said, it changed heavily over time.  In ME1, the idea that synthetics and organics were destined for conflict seems at least plausible, but as the series progresses and new characters and information are introduced, the general conclusion that the series seemed to be reaching was that despite their differences, organics and synthetics could in fact persist together to the betterment of both groups. 

 

To me, this was a very satisfying thematic arc.  Making peace between the Geth and Quarians was one of my favorite parts of the trilogy.  And then the catalyst came along and took a giant dump on everything, and told me that despite all my Shepard's experiences to the contrary, synthetics and organics must necessarily be enemies.  That if synthetics were allowed to exist, all organic life would die (as laughable as that sounds).  To this day, I still don't get what Walters and Hudson were thinking.

 

You can completely disagree with it, just like you can with any Reaper Intelligence. And you'd be at least half-right, because even Reapers have a certain POV that isn't yours. To them, for example, the conflict on Rannoch in itself still proves their assertion, despite the possible peaceful results of it. Even your fighting on Earth against the Reapers themselves, proves their assertion. They've gone mad about Order.

 

Just because Shepard's body and mind are weakened - that doesn't mean you have to let the Intelligence take away your will to fight.

 

It's just that if it has a long standing model of organics and synthetics fighting - even before the Reaper cycle - and if it is programmed to actually find a solution to this - then it has to work within predictable variables in order to pursue it. The Reaping was its solution until something better came along, but that possibility of a new solution became more and more unlikely over time. All of the Reapers' monstrous elements were more psychological (easier Reaping) than outright malevolent.

 

And we have the option to not give a crap about all that. I took that option and went for Destroy. As a person/audience though, I don't mind trying to understand other things. The series has information for you, if you want to pay attention to it. That's the Paragon path. It just happens to be harder to understand the Reapers than it is to understand Geth/Krogan/Mercs/Rachni/Etc/Etc/Etc. And of course. They're Reapers.

 

 

There is no true peace option with the Reapers anyway. They're either killed off, or controlled and kept at bay, or quickly changed to understand organics enough to not be bad to us. There's no case of the Reapers individually going "Hey, we'll stop, we're sorry, and we'll rebuild." without our intervention and constant resistance.

They've always been our enemy, but we can decide just how much of an enemy they are (monsters, rivals, or misunderstood).

[KaiserShep]

In my opinion, organics vs. synthetics was indeed a major theme of the series.  That said, it changed heavily over time.  In ME1, the idea that synthetics and organics were destined for conflict seems at least plausible, but as the series progresses and new characters and information are introduced, the general conclusion that the series seemed to be reaching was that despite their differences, organics and synthetics could in fact persist together to the betterment of both groups. 
 
To me, this was a very satisfying thematic arc.  Making peace between the Geth and Quarians was one of my favorite parts of the trilogy.  And then the catalyst came along and took a giant dump on everything, and told me that despite all my Shepard's experiences to the contrary, synthetics and organics must necessarily be enemies.  That if synthetics were allowed to exist, all organic life would die (as laughable as that sounds).  To this day, I still don't get what Walters and Hudson were thinking.

Yeah that was a pretty disappointing turn, made worse by how poorly it fit into the rest of the game if you opted for peaceful options and made allies of all of the synthetics.

"Your kinds are doomed to fight forever!"

"Oh shut up Avina."

"Why you..."

*shoots tube*

[SwobyJ]

Yeah that was a pretty disappointing turn, made worse by how poorly it fit into the rest of the game if you opted for peaceful options and made allies of all of the synthetics.

"Your kinds are doomed to fight forever!"

"Oh shut up Avina."

"Why you..."

*shoots tube*

 

But that's exactly what you can do. And it's foreshadowed a lot. Shoot the tube.

 

More and more I see that it's not as much the plot that wrecks things for people - its how it was explained and shown. But well, that's what Bioware gets for making things (automatically) 'high level' at the last minute, instead of letting the majority of players decide they don't even want to talk to any sort of Reaper rep, and just want a big satisfying battle to kill em all.

[AlanC9]

 

To me, this was a very satisfying thematic arc.  Making peace between the Geth and Quarians was one of my favorite parts of the trilogy.  And then the catalyst came along and took a giant dump on everything, and told me that despite all my Shepard's experiences to the contrary, synthetics and organics must necessarily be enemies.  That if synthetics were allowed to exist, all organic life would die (as laughable as that sounds).  To this day, I still don't get what Walters and Hudson were thinking.

 

Maybe they were thinking that nobody would believe the Catalyst was right about that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You can completely disagree with it, just like you can with any Reaper Intelligence. And you'd be at least half-right, because even Reapers have a certain POV that isn't yours. To them, for example, the conflict on Rannoch in itself still proves their assertion, despite the possible peaceful results of it. Even your fighting on Earth against the Reapers themselves, proves their assertion. They've gone mad about Order.

 

Just because Shepard's body and mind are weakened - that doesn't mean you have to let the Intelligence take away your will to fight.

 

It's just that if it has a long standing model of organics and synthetics fighting - even before the Reaper cycle - and if it is programmed to actually find a solution to this - then it has to work within predictable variables in order to pursue it. The Reaping was its solution until something better came along, but that possibility of a new solution became more and more unlikely over time. All of the Reapers' monstrous elements were more psychological (easier Reaping) than outright malevolent.

 

And we have the option to not give a crap about all that. I took that option and went for Destroy. As a person/audience though, I don't mind trying to understand other things. The series has information for you, if you want to pay attention to it. That's the Paragon path. It just happens to be harder to understand the Reapers than it is to understand Geth/Krogan/Mercs/Rachni/Etc/Etc/Etc. And of course. They're Reapers.

 

 

There is no true peace option with the Reapers anyway. They're either killed off, or controlled and kept at bay, or quickly changed to understand organics enough to not be bad to us. There's no case of the Reapers individually going "Hey, we'll stop, we're sorry, and we'll rebuild." without our intervention and constant resistance.

They've always been our enemy, but we can decide just how much of an enemy they are (monsters, rivals, or misunderstood).

 

But what everyone forgets is that when we get to the end we see the plot twist. What is this plot twist? We are actually playing the antagonist of the series, and the Catalyst is the protagonist. We are the bad guys. The Reapers are the good guys. They are saving organic life from certain destruction. We, on the other hand, if we were to have our way would create something that would destroy all organic life in the galaxy.... all of it. The Catalyst wants to save it by harvesting us before we get to that point.

 

In the EC we can look at it this way, now. We have two choices: one to defeat them and choose our own path which will eventually lead to our own destruction; control them and if it looks like organics create something that is going to do something really really bad, we send the reapers after it and stop it.

 

Or we can: refuse the catalyst and the harvest continues; or choose synthesis which makes everything a hybrid of organic and synthetic. You essentially convert the galaxy into a giant reaper. The cycle ends.

 

The reapers are the good guys. You  are the bad guy. You can become a good guy by joining them. 

[CronoDragoon]

This all sounds pretty standard as far as antagonists go. Different beliefs than protagonist: check. Believes he is doing the right thing: check. People only care what the catalyst says if they believe you are forced to do what he wants.

[SporkFu]

But what everyone forgets is that when we get to the end we see the plot twist. What is this plot twist? We are actually playing the antagonist of the series, and the Catalyst is the protagonist. We are the bad guys. The Reapers are the good guys. They are saving organic life from certain destruction. We, on the other hand, if we were to have our way would create something that would destroy all organic life in the galaxy.... all of it. The Catalyst wants to save it by harvesting us before we get to that point.

 

In the EC we can look at it this way, now. We have two choices: one to defeat them and choose our own path which will eventually lead to our own destruction; control them and if it looks like organics create something that is going to do something really really bad, we send the reapers after it and stop it.

 

Or we can: refuse the catalyst and the harvest continues; or choose synthesis which makes everything a hybrid of organic and synthetic. You essentially convert the galaxy into a giant reaper. The cycle ends.

 

The reapers are the good guys. You  are the bad guy. You can become a good guy by joining them. 

That's an interesting viewpoint, but to me the ends don't justify the means. The reapers' method for saving organics is wrong and needs to be stopped.

[Mcfly616]

We're the bad guys? Ok.


People have differing viewpoints. So, we obviously have to label each with one end of the extreme. One has to be bad. The other, good. Makes sense.

[Barquiel]

I always thought the main theme of Mass Effect was "unity despite differences". All the races and people working together despite our differences so we could defeat even the most impossible odds.

[SwobyJ]

Of course Shepard is the bad guy.

 

You can only live in the illusion so long until you have to have a rude awakening.

[grey_wind]

Maybe they were thinking that nobody would believe the Catalyst was right about that.

But there was no reason to bring the organic-synthetic conflict to the forefront again, especially when it had already been resolved and there was little indication that it was THE theme of the series. It would have probably flown a lot better had the Catalyst's agenda not been so specific.

 

Had his motivation been something akin to "wiping out all advanced life so that lesser races can flourish", that would be a lot more acceptable because the idea draws from all the major arcs of the series. The Krogan Rebellions, the Morning War, and the Prothean empire all tie into it as examples of more advanced races subjugating or punishing those "beneath" them.

[Mcfly616]

But there was no reason to bring the organic-synthetic conflict to the forefront again, especially when it had already been resolved and there was little indication that it was THE theme of the series. It would have probably flown a lot better had the Catalyst's agenda not been so specific.
 
Had his motivation been something akin to "wiping out all advanced life so that lesser races can flourish", that would be a lot more acceptable because the idea draws from all the major arcs of the series. The Krogan Rebellions, the Morning War, and the Prothean empire all tie into it as examples of more advanced races subjugating or punishing those "beneath" them.

the organic/synthetic conflict wasn't resolved. And it being the motivation behind the Catalyst/Reapers actions doesn't make it 'THE theme' of the series.


"wiping out all advanced life so that lesser races can flourish".... You mean like when it says: "we harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here.....We helped them ascend so they can make way for new life...."


Hmm

[SwobyJ]

The theme of the series is choice.

 

Sometimes you have less than you want.

[Big Bad]

Maybe they were thinking that nobody would believe the Catalyst was right about that.

 

If that had been the case, it would have been nice if they allowed Shepard to disagree with the Catalyst's underlying premises in any meaningful way. 

[SwobyJ]

If that had been the case, it would have been nice if they allowed Shepard to disagree with the Catalyst's underlying premises in any meaningful way. 

 

Too bad! Indoc!

[AlanC9]

But what everyone forgets is that when we get to the end we see the plot twist. What is this plot twist? We are actually playing the antagonist of the series, and the Catalyst is the protagonist. We are the bad guys. The Reapers are the good guys. They are saving organic life from certain destruction. We, on the other hand, if we were to have our way would create something that would destroy all organic life in the galaxy.... all of it. The Catalyst wants to save it by harvesting us before we get to that point.

 

This is a better fit for the old Dark Energy plot, of course. In fact, it was my favorite thing about DE.

[AlanC9]

If that had been the case, it would have been nice if they allowed Shepard to disagree with the Catalyst's underlying premises in any meaningful way. 

 

Sure. Especially since they already had the "your belief is not required" line recorded. 

 

I don't know why they didn't do this, unless they didn't want Shepard's next-to-last action to be a failure.

[Mcfly616]

This is a better fit for the old Dark Energy plot, of course. In fact, it was my favorite thing about DE.

still doesn't make us the 'bad guys'. Just makes us like kids playing with guns. If bad things happen through ignorance or naivety, or simply from our existence alone.....does that really make us bad guys? Not imo....

[Big Bad]

Sure. Especially since they already had the "your belief is not required" line recorded. 

 

I don't know why they didn't do this, unless they didn't want Shepard's next-to-last action to be a failure.

 

Yeah.  Even if they had allowed Shepard to mount a vigorous argument (if he or she so chose) against the the Catalyst's underlying premises, I think I would probably still strongly dislike the endings for a variety of other reasons, but I would definitely dislike them a lot less than I do now.