981 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Had his motivation been something akin to "wiping out all advanced life so that lesser races can flourish", that would be a lot more acceptable because the idea draws from all the major arcs of the series. The Krogan Rebellions, the Morning War, and the Prothean empire all tie into it as examples of more advanced races subjugating or punishing those "beneath" them.

 

This is one of the few really worthwhile ideas for an alternative motivation that doesn't require restructuring the entire series. I guess the raloi were right, eh?

[KaiserShep]

This is one of the few really worthwhile ideas for an alternative motivation that doesn't require restructuring the entire series. I guess the raloi were right, eh?

 

Gotta give the chickens credit. They saw the writing on the wall pretty quickly, given that they were the latest group to come to the scene in galactic society.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Had his motivation been something akin to "wiping out all advanced life so that lesser races can flourish", that would be a lot more acceptable because the idea draws from all the major arcs of the series. The Krogan Rebellions, the Morning War, and the Prothean empire all tie into it as examples of more advanced races subjugating or punishing those "beneath" them.

 

I had a similar idea before the Leviathan DLC came out. Like the Reapers would be the survivors of some far off galaxy who uploaded themselves to the Reaper form. In this galaxy the technology and wars grew so devastating that no life can ever again grow in that place so the Reapers moved the Milky Way and began limiting the Organics there; either for a reason similar to the current Catalyst... harvesting advance life to let the younger life flourish, a reason more akin the Anti-Spirals in Gurren Lagann (if you've seen that, I though it would have been the coolest), or an entirely selfish reason... like the Reapers didn't want anyone to compete with them. To prevent the destruction of past cycles they forbid themselves from using truly catastrophic weapons of war, which is why the Reapers don't more advance technology after however many years. The Crucible in this scenario would have been one of those ancient weapons that some how managed to survive.

 

I agree though, ME2 and ME3 did too much to remove any distinction the AIs had which made the synthetic vs organic conflict no more threatening than any other galactic conflict; in fact, they took it a step further in ME3 by crudely painting those racist organics as the bad guys for the most part; hell, ME2 even technically made the Reapers non-AI any more, but rather a hybrid of the two.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I had a similar idea before the Leviathan DLC came out. Like the Reapers would be the survivors of some far off galaxy who uploaded themselves to the Reaper form. In this galaxy the technology and wars grew so devastating that no life can ever again grow in that place so the Reapers moved the Milky Way and began limiting the Organics there; either for a reason similar to the current Catalyst... harvesting advance life to let the younger life flourish, a reason more akin the Anti-Spirals in Gurren Lagann (if you've seen that, I though it would have been the coolest), or an entirely selfish reason... like the Reapers didn't want anyone to compete with them. To prevent the destruction of past cycles they forbid themselves from using truly catastrophic weapons of war, which is why the Reapers don't more advance technology after however many years. The Crucible in this scenario would have been one of those ancient weapons that some how managed to survive.

 

I agree though, ME2 and ME3 did too much to remove any distinction the AIs had which made the synthetic vs organic conflict no more threatening than any other galactic conflict; in fact, they took it a step further in ME3 by crudely painting those racist organics as the bad guys for the most part; hell, ME2 even technically made the Reapers non-AI any more, but rather a hybrid of the two.

 

So... the reverse of the Yuuzhan Vong?

[Vortex13]

So... the reverse of the Yuuzhan Vong?

 

 

Eh I would have preferred a robotic form of the Dead Space

 

*SPOILERS*

 

Brethren Moons

 

"They are hungry. They are coming."

 

/*SPOLERS*

[grey_wind]

the organic/synthetic conflict wasn't resolved. And it being the motivation behind the Catalyst/Reapers actions doesn't make it 'THE theme' of the series.

If you made peace or destroyed the Geth, that story arc was pretty much resolved.

 

You can argue that it doesn't make it THE theme, but by the basics of narrative structure, making the organic-synthetic conflict the motivation of the Reapers automatically ascribes more thematic relevance to it than the other themes. Keeping the Reaper motivation more general like in the example I mentioned allows each of the major arcs to contribute on an equal level.

[Mcfly616]

If you made peace or destroyed the Geth, that story arc was pretty much resolved.
 
You can argue that it doesn't make it THE theme, but by the basics of narrative structure, making the organic-synthetic conflict the motivation of the Reapers automatically ascribes more thematic relevance to it than the other themes. Keeping the Reaper motivation more general like in the example I mentioned allows each of the major arcs to contribute on an equal level.

the resolution of the Geth/Quarian arc does not resolve the organic/synthetic conflict. But it's not worth another debate on that specific topic, so you can agree to disagree and believe whatever you like.


And I'm not sure where you learned about "narrative structure". But the antagonist having a motive for doing what it does, doesn't automatically make said motive a theme of the game. Nor does it give it thematic precedence and/or relevance over any other actual themes.

[Kel Riever]

Nah I think grey_wind is right on the money.

 

In making a coherent story, IF it were a good idea to say that synthetics and organics always had to war, there need to be A LOT more groundwork for that.  One way certainly is to make sure the quarians and the geth cannot achieve peace.  That is actually the best way, as far as I'm concerned.  And for some reason, beyond comprehension, if someone wanted to leave that in there and yet prove that synthetics and organics would eventually come to war...which it seems the writers wanted, then they didn't do enough to explain why the peace didn't matter.

 

Sorry a suddenly appearing Glowjob's word for it isn't enough.  Unless Shepard became super stupid.  I mean, I already have a hard time with Shepard not saying something intelligent as a retort to Glowjob.  But it sure is a lot easier to believe Glowjob if what he says isn't immediately refuted by events that occur right inside the same video game.

 

You lay the groundwork for these things to make your ending clear, and your speculations coherent, as opposed to looking like you blew it (which, sorry, ME3 did).

[Iakus]

Nah I think grey_wind is right on the money.

 

In making a coherent story, IF it were a good idea to say that synthetics and organics always had to war, there need to be A LOT more groundwork for that.  One way certainly is to make sure the quarians and the geth cannot achieve peace.  That is actually the best way, as far as I'm concerned.  And for some reason, beyond comprehension, if someone wanted to leave that in there and yet prove that synthetics and organics would eventually come to war...which it seems the writers wanted, then they didn't do enough to explain why the peace didn't matter.

 

Sorry a suddenly appearing Glowjob's word for it isn't enough.  Unless Shepard became super stupid.  I mean, I already have a hard time with Shepard not saying something intelligent as a retort to Glowjob.  But it sure is a lot easier to believe Glowjob if what he says isn't immediately refuted by events that occur right inside the same video game.

 

You lay the groundwork for these things to make your ending clear, and your speculations coherent, as opposed to looking like you blew it (which, sorry, ME3 did).

 

Not to mention EDI proving definitively she is on the side of organics and hates the Reapers and all they stand for.

[Kel Riever]

It would make a lot more sense if EDI betrayed the crew of the Normandy.  But then everyone would pick the Destroy ending. 

 

Wait, that's what they did anyway....

 

See, here's the deal...the Glowjob's little story justification is nonsense.  In the MEU, there is little evidence that synthetics and organics MUST ALWAYS come to war.  There's the geth/quarian peace, legion, EDI.  So to try to explain it, in other words, do the job that BioWare didn't do, is silly.  Decent writing wouldn't have bothered to either make such a nonsense character (Glowjob) or have it say such nonsense things.

[Farangbaa]

Not to mention EDI proving definitively she is on the side of organics and hates the Reapers and all they stand for.

 

Definitively? Oh yeah, Synthetics can't change their mind.

 

And yeah, a whopping 2 weeks of peace, that's conclusive proof of an everlasting peace between Synthetics and Organics and the Catalyst being oh so wrong.

[Iakus]

Definitively? Oh yeah, Synthetics can't change their mind.

 

And yeah, a whopping 2 weeks of peace, that's conclusive proof of an everlasting peace between Synthetics and Organics and the Catalyst being oh so wrong.

 

I don't need proof of everlasting peace between Synthetics and Organics.  I just need proof that peace in general is possible.  Just as it's possible to have beace between organic races.  We are none of us slaves to destiny.  And that is where the Catalyst is wrong.  Wrong.  WRONG!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Organics can be at war with each other, therefore all organic life needs to be wiped out to save organic life.

 

If the stupid machines go to war with the Quarians and then attack others after this we do with them what we do with any other enemy. We blow them up. That's what organics do.

 

We brought them into this universe, and we can take them out.

 

That was what the Leviathans didn't do right. They believed their intelligence served a purpose.

[Iakus]

Organics can be at war with each other, therefore all organic life needs to be wiped out to save organic life.

 

Well, the Catalyst would certainly agree with this assessment

[Kel Riever]

Definitively? Oh yeah, Synthetics can't change their mind.

 

And yeah, a whopping 2 weeks of peace, that's conclusive proof of an everlasting peace between Synthetics and Organics and the Catalyst being oh so wrong.

 

Wat?

 

Because they can change their mind, that invalidates entirely the synthetics making groundbreaking peace with the quarians.

 

A hypothetical situation is what you are supposed to believe Glowjob about?  Because he told you so.

 

Right.

 

How about bad writing?  Because what you said still points to bad writing.

[AlanC9]

Definitively? Oh yeah, Synthetics can't change their mind.

 

And yeah, a whopping 2 weeks of peace, that's conclusive proof of an everlasting peace between Synthetics and Organics and the Catalyst being oh so wrong.

 

 

I agree that this in no way disproves the argument; we don't have any evidence to collect because all of history has been arranged to prevent the conditions from arising. (The only exception being the very first cycle, which worked the way the Catalyst said it would. But that was because of him anyway, so it doesn't count.)

 

Although in a odd sense the Catalyst was right; machines have conquered organics and rule the galaxy for their own ends. Or rather, one machine's ends, since the Reapers qua Reapers don't get anything out of the cycles that they couldn't get easier through other means.

 

I'm not sure any of this is really the point, though. Nobody's actually arguing that the Catalyst was right about any of this, unless I've misjudged your position and you're arguing that the Catalyst really is right. Note that the people who are upset here are all Destroy fans to the extent that they participate in the actual MEU at all.

[Kel Riever]

Does hating Destroy the least out of all the endings make me a Destroy fan?

 

I know you didn't really say that but it is a funny extrapolation from what you are saying AlanC9.

 

It probably leads to the fanatic posts I see explaining how somehow I purchased all the other DLC anyway and will be totes purchasing the next Mass Effect game no matter what.  Those cultists always bring a tear of joy to my eyes. 

[Iakus]

 

I'm not sure any of this is really the point, though. Nobody's actually arguing that the Catalyst was right about any of this, unless I've misjudged your position and you're arguing that the Catalyst really is right. Note that the people who are upset here are all Destroy fans to the extent that they participate in the actual MEU at all.

 

Well, I know you can't be talking about me, since I'm on record as saying I despise all the endings

[AlanC9]

Like I said, to the extent they participate in the actual MEU at all. You've decamped for the MEHEM AU, right?

 

What did you pick before MEHEM, anyway?

[AlanC9]

Does hating Destroy the least out of all the endings make me a Destroy fan?

 

I know you didn't really say that but it is a funny extrapolation from what you are saying AlanC9.

 

It probably leads to the fanatic posts I see explaining how somehow I purchased all the other DLC anyway and will be totes purchasing the next Mass Effect game no matter what.  Those cultists always bring a tear of joy to my eyes. 

 

Hey, if you've got a better phrase I'll use it. Destroy-least-hater is just a little clunky for me.

[KaiserShep]

Definitively? Oh yeah, Synthetics can't change their mind.

 

And yeah, a whopping 2 weeks of peace, that's conclusive proof of an everlasting peace between Synthetics and Organics and the Catalyst being oh so wrong.

 

Everlasting peace is a myth anyway. The important thing is that being able to achieve a peace agreement between the geth and quarians presents the very real possibility that the two domains of life can actually settle a dispute without totally annihilating one another. Whether or not they can change their mind later is irrelevant, because for rest of the game, they never do. Now, if the geth decided "F*ck it, let's just shut down the quarians' suits now that they're at our mercy" no matter what Shepard or anyone else did, then that would be a different story altogether.

[Kel Riever]

But I like Destroy least hater.  That's an acronym in the making. 

 

It still sucks that ending.  However, it does bring happiness to know it was more popular than Synthesis.  By a lot, apparently.

[Iakus]

Like I said, to the extent they participate in the actual MEU at all. You've decamped for the MEHEM AU, right?

 

What did you pick before MEHEM, anyway?

 

First playthrough, before the fecal matter really hit the rotary impeller:  Destroy.  Hated it, youtubed the others, hated them even more.

 

Second playthrough, after EC, I picked "Quit during Rannoch arc and uninstall"  I simply couldn't go any further knowing how it must inevitably end.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

First playthrough, before the fecal matter really hit the rotary impeller:  Destroy.  Hated it, youtubed the others, hated them even more.

 

Second playthrough, after EC, I picked "Quit during Rannoch arc and uninstall"  I simply couldn't go any further knowing how it must inevitably end.

 

But you see, it doesn't. It just doesn't, because in the end everything is up to you, as you're the one who actually plays the game. The story doesn't happen without you, or without me, or without any player, anyone who experiences the story. It's called willing participation. You don't need to give them that. If you don't believe any given story point, it didn't happen. Just don't support those who are trying to force this unwanted version of the story on you. Make up your own. It will be valid. Canon.

 

In other words, you have the power.

[Iakus]

But you see, it doesn't. It just doesn't, because in the end everything is up to you, as you're the one who actually plays the game. The story doesn't happen without you, or without me, or without any player, anyone who experiences the story. It's called willing participation. You don't need to give them that. If you don't believe any given story point, it didn't happen. Just don't support those who are trying to force this unwanted version of the story on you. Make up your own. It will be valid. Canon.

 

In other words, you have the power.

Sadly, while this is true, by the time I got to that point, Bioware already had the money.