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[Big Bad]

No sense to you. It actually is a valid element of Mass Effect that makes a lot of sense in the writing of the trilogy. There's no writer's fiasco, only reader's fiasco.

 

The writers can never fail--they can only be failed (by their readers)!

[AlanC9]

Saberhagen did it first.

Did the Berserkers enforce cycles? I thought they just killed you. But yeah, that's a better match for the Reapers' m.o.; the Assassins don't go in for anything that clunky.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Too bad.

 

How very astuate.

 

The Reapers themselves make less sense; the Catalyst is in to clean up that mess some. The cycles exist because Drew K. thought they sounded cool, and he figured he'd come up with some reason for them later. I guess that didn't work out too well. (Less snarky version: he was ripping off Frederik Pohl, but forgot that Pohl's plot only works because the enemies really are uninterested in organics.)

If you want to apply the same credibility standard to both, go right ahead.

 

OK, so let me get this straight: Reapers in ME1 make no sense, but the Catalyst sorts that out. Right. Next thing you'll say that midichlorians in TPM cleared up inconsistencies with the Force that were there in ANH and TESB.

 

No sense to you. It actually is a valid element of Mass Effect that makes a lot of sense in the writing of the trilogy. There's no writer's fiasco, only reader's fiasco.

 

Yes of course, to me. If you want to accept RGB nonsense in your version, be my guest. Shows how much you care about Mass Effect.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Reapers themselves make less sense; the Catalyst is in to clean up that mess some. The cycles exist because Drew K. thought they sounded cool, and he figured he'd come up with some reason for them later. I guess that didn't work out too well. (Less snarky version: he was ripping off Frederik Pohl, but forgot that Pohl's plot only works because the enemies really are uninterested in organics.)

If you want to apply the same credibility standard to both, go right ahead.

 

I'm not sure I understand this point. As of ME1 I thought the Reapers were unexplained, not nonsensical. ME1's story seemed to have the objective of just introducing them to the story and establishing them as a threat, relying on the later installments to fill in the blanks.

[Deathsaurer]

Oh god, is someone really still pretending to be the metric for what is and isn't a Mass Effect fan?

[Ryriena]

In ME1, Sovereign and Saren were Villains correctly done. I watched the Soveregin meeting on Virmier and I still get chills listening to him. Haha! Glow brat I just go with my confused look and go really that's your reason? It's illogical and doesn't fit with past encounters like with Soveregin. He shows hatred to both the Geth and Organics not just Organics but all types of life.

[Iakus]

 

OK, so let me get this straight: Reapers in ME1 make no sense, but the Catalyst sorts that out. Right. Next thing you'll say that midichlorians in TPM cleared up inconsistencies with the Force that were there in ANH and TESB.

 

I thought midichlorians explained Synthesis? 

[SwobyJ]

Oh god, is someone really still pretending to be the metric for what is and isn't a Mass Effect fan?

 

As soon as I saw that, it made this thread a candidate for locking.

[Kel Riever]

No sense to you. It actually is a valid element of Mass Effect that makes a lot of sense in the writing of the trilogy. There's no writer's fiasco, only reader's fiasco.

 

Nope, there is writer fiasco.  Look, for example, at what you just wrote!

 

I like how you say 'no sense to you' in a page filled with plenty of people, and in a forum filled with even more people, who think the ending(s) make no sense.  That's the kind of blind faith that cultists love.  Stay away from commercials!  You'll be poor in no time!

 

Or, maybe, you perhaps are referring to the statistics on the 'secret spreadsheets' that will never be revealed to back up your point?

[ShadowLordXII]

I'm not sure I understand this point. As of ME1 I thought the Reapers were unexplained, not nonsensical. ME1's story seemed to have the objective of just introducing them to the story and establishing them as a threat, relying on the later installments to fill in the blanks.

 

Me neither to be honest.

 

As Shepard and his crew had just found out about the reapers, it made sense that little was actually known about them in ME1. Shepard discovered or was told enough to know why Sovereign had to be stopped and what the consequences of failure would be.

 

ME2 wasn't completely directly related to the reaper plot, but stopping the Collectors does ensure that they won't build another reaper to sneak attack the galaxy. It also provided key tidbits of insight into reaper physiology, motivations and how they're actually created. With ME2, we learned that reapers harvest civilizations partway out of self-preservation. They need millions of organic victims to convert into reaper-form and anyone else is utilized as a psychological weapon. We also learned more about how indoctrination works, it's long-term effects, and how it ensnares it's targets. This granted context to the reapers in both how they fight their enemies and why they would do so.

 

Then ME3 came and all of this knowledge became essential in the face of the reaper invasion. Granted, the Crucible is a flimsy plot device, but it was serviceable for it's purpose. Realistically, there was simply no way that the galaxy would've been able to earn a conventional military victory against the reapers. Their superior firepower, technology and psychological warfare would've defeated the galaxy sooner or later. The Crucible was honestly more metaphorical in a sense, it's designs were created and built upon by many past cycles who fought the reapers and failed. Shepard's cycle is able to complete the design with the full cooperation and unity of it's many species, accomplishing what no other cycle before them had done before. Through their unity and cooperation, they had earned a valid chance to fight the reapers and determine the path of their own future.

 

Then Star-Child shows up. And everything is ruined.

 

Whats this? You created the reapers? That means you also made the Citadel and Mass Relays since those were made by the reapers. You also control them and embody their collective consciousness? Okay. You've also lived on the Citadel as your home and it's part of you?

 

Wait...so why didn't you activate the Dark Relay yourself?

 

Also, the reapers are your solution to the metaphysical complex of the relationship between organic and synthetic life? You use reapers to destroy advanced organic civilizations and "preserve" them so that they're not destroyed by synthetics? The Created will always seek to destroy their Creators?

 

I'm the first organic to ever meet you? The Crucible changed you and "altered the variables"? What variables? If this device was really meant to interact with Star-Child then who designed the Crucible? Who would design this device with full knowledge of the Citadel's workings and the nature of the Star-Child?

 

What's that? I would not know them and there's not enough time to explain?

 

You know what. I think we're done here.

[SwobyJ]

I really think so much would have been helped by a combination of:

 

1)Making nearly all interaction with the Catalyst as somehow much more optional. Especially if you're over X-amount Renegade. Just use it as a tool and fire away!

 

2)While the Extended Cut results were about 2/3 of what anyone reasonable could want (for post-war), the Earth battle needed more. Maybe a lot more. While I personally think there's some very good design and symbolic reasons behind what Earth was (not just 'cut content'), it still wasn't what it should have been. We should have at least had much token acknowledgement (stuff shown in background a bit, voiceovers while fighting, etc) of what we've done throughout the trilogy.

 

 

But yeah, I don't think BW even needed to have the Catalyst HAVE TO explain things to us. I'm 100% tolerating of the infodump at the end - but the implementation was too forced, too sudden (for too many gamers at least), and didn't really fit the 'core' Shepard path anyway - being someone who is totally dedicated to being victorious over the Reapers.

 

 

EDIT: Oh, and some clearer foreshadowing of what became the Crucible would have been nice to see in the main ME2 story. Don't just say 'Collector base has tech that may be useful' - explain and involve that Collector tech more in things.

[Ryriena]

I would agree that star brat make no sense to the narrative of the storyline in question. The fact is Soverign showed hatred to both the Geth and the ones he called organics. The writers said lol lets make it's the Organics vs Synethics debate.

[Kel Riever]

Making no sense is called 'controversial' by IGN.

 

According to that metric, when a student gets answers beforehand for a test he is taking, it is 'controversial' if he is cheating.

[Ryriena]

Haha! Hey at least everything can't be edgy and less video gamey... Hey things that break the lore of the series are totally edgy and ground breaking. However, it's a huge slap in the face to the players intelligence.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Haha! Hey at least everything can't be edgy and less video gamey... Hey things that break the lore of the series are totally edgy and ground breaking. However, it's a huge slap in the face to the players intellect.

 

And artistic. Don't forget that part. Space magic art!

[Ryriena]

And artistic. Don't forget that part. Space magic art!

Thanks forgot that part. From another Kaidan fan.

[SwobyJ]

You can show hatred and contempt towards another while still fulfilling a mandate set by others.

 

Nothing the Catalyst says actually communicates any sort of care or empathy for either synthetic or organic life. Don't let the presentation style fool you.

[SwobyJ]

I would agree that star brat make no sense to the narrative of the storyline in question. The fact is Soverign showed hatred to both the Geth and the ones he called organics. The writers said lol lets make it's the Organics vs Synethics debate.

 

We (big synthetics) bring order to the chaos of organic evolution. -ME1

[Iakus]

We (big synthetics) bring order to the chaos of organic evolution. -ME1

 

"We have no beginning.  We have no end.  We are infinite"-also ME1

[Farangbaa]

"We have no beginning.  We have no end.  We are infinite"-also ME1

 

There's nothing wrong with that statement. It doesn't have to be true for Sovereign to truely believe that.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

We (big synthetics) bring order to the chaos of organic evolution. -ME1

 

That's not organics vs. synthetics, that's Reapers vs organic life. Geth and quarians - peaceful resolution possible, and even if not acquired, geth never wished quarians any harm. EDI - no conflict with organics. Reapers were the only synthetic enemy. Well, them and that Rogue VI on Luna (I do not aknowledge its explanation from "ME3") and the money-grubbing EA... sorry, money-grubbing AI on the Citadel in ME1. But they hardly make up a "synthetics vs. organics conflict".

[Ithurael]

That's not organics vs. synthetics, that's Reapers vs organic life. Geth and quarians - peaceful resolution possible, and even if not acquired, geth never wished quarians any harm. EDI - no conflict with organics. Reapers were the only synthetic enemy. Well, them and that Rogue VI on Luna (I do not aknowledge its explanation from "ME3") and the money-grubbing EA... sorry, money-grubbing AI on the Citadel in ME1. But they hardly make up a "synthetics vs. organics conflict".

 

A quick note, Reapers were Organic/Synthetic hybrids. There were never totally synthetic or totally organic. What % of each was never explained (and should never be explained as that adds to the interest of them) but suffice it to say that the Org Vs Synth conflict was not (strictly speaking) embodied by even the reaper harvests.

[SwobyJ]

"We have no beginning.  We have no end.  We are infinite"-also ME1

 

When you're a legend in your own mind, you'd think that.

 

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

A quick note, Reapers were Organic/Synthetic hybrids. There were never totally synthetic or totally organic. What % of each was never explained (and should never be explained as that adds to the interest of them) but suffice it to say that the Org Vs Synth conflict was not (strictly speaking) embodied by even the reaper harvests.

 

True! But again, even if they were fully synthetic, it still wouldn't construe a universal theme of synthetics vs organics. Reapers vs. Everything =/= synthetics vs. organics.

[SwobyJ]

They keep the theme ever since the first time you shoot a geth on Eden Prime.

 

We just have more layers of context and scale to it. From starting off as a human soldier, into potentially becoming a biosynthetic savior.. if you want.

 

It's not entirely universal. The universal theme is actually of choice. Synthetics and organics are a major theme in the trilogy. We make our choice about them. ME3 is not the last Mass Effect game.

 

Synthetics and organics is also just a way to describe Intelligence itself. Think, feel, understand, and choose. Choose to kill, to save, to create. Choose to break down, to control, to dream. THIS is definitely part of all the major arcs since ME1, even in subtle ways told in sidequests (the Luna VI/EDI 'screaming' "HELPHELPHELP", the heretic Geth signaling out a Quarian lament).

 

And btw, I'm not trying to sound pretentious here. I really think this is what they're going with. If you disagree, or agree but think they presented it badly, that's entirely fine. I would also agree that they at least made significant mistakes in communication of their themes.