A quick note, Reapers were Organic/Synthetic hybrids. There were never totally synthetic or totally organic. What % of each was never explained (and should never be explained as that adds to the interest of them) but suffice it to say that the Org Vs Synth conflict was not (strictly speaking) embodied by even the reaper harvests.
The genetic goo is just for storage purposes. Everything points to their functionality being completely synthetic-based.
They keep the theme ever since the first time you shoot a geth on Eden Prime.
We just have more layers of context and scale to it. From starting off as a human soldier, into potentially becoming a biosynthetic savior.. if you want.
It's not entirely universal. The universal theme is actually of choice. Synthetics and organics are a major theme in the trilogy. We make our choice about them. ME3 is not the last Mass Effect game.
Synthetics and organics is also just a way to describe Intelligence itself. Think, feel, understand, and choose. Choose to kill, to save, to create.
And btw, I'm not trying to sound pretentious here. I really think this is what they're going with. If you disagree, or agree but think they presented it badly, that's entirely fine.
I do disagree. Shooting a geth on Eden Prime does not constitute a theme of some "conflict" between synthetics and organics. First, these geth served Saren and the Reapers, who were THE ENEMY. Later on in the story (in ME2) we meet geth who are not the enemy - more than seven hundred of them, in fact. If there is any theme here, it's a theme of "encountering a dangerous situation - finding out more about it - fighting the enemy". Sometimes the enemy is synthetic. Sometimes it would be organic. It's not set in concrete.
Those geth joined the Reapers because they couldn't connect with organics... the geth always yearned to. It was the Geth/Quarian conflict in itself that even allowed Nazara to convince so many geth to join him.
So thanks for illustrating my point.
"You're just machines! And machines can be broken!" -ME1 good ol boy soldier Shep
Those geth joined the Reapers because they couldn't connect with organics... the geth always yearned to. It was the Geth/Quarian conflict in itself that even allowed Nazara to convince so many geth to join him.
So thanks for illustrating my point.
"You're just machines! And machines can be broken!" -ME1 good ol boy soldier Shep
It's "You're not even alive. Not really. You're just a machine. And machines can be broken", actually 
How does that illustrate your point? Heretic geth =/= synthetics. It's not a conflict of synthetics and organics, it's an example of the Reapers doing their machinations to weaken the galaxy by getting help of a small geth faction. That's it.
We (big synthetics) bring order to the chaos of organic evolution.
It's "You're not even alive. Not really. You're just a machine. And machines can be broken", actually
How does that illustrate your point? Heretic geth =/= synthetics. It's not a conflict of synthetics and organics, it's an example of the Reapers doing their machinations to weaken the galaxy by getting help of a small geth faction. That's it.
"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite." -- implies we are gods.
"You're not even alive. Not really. You're just a machine. And machines can be broken."
Sovereign is trash talking Shepard. Shepard trash talks Sovereign.
It was a battle of us vs them. We're not going to choose them, are we?
It's "You're not even alive. Not really. You're just a machine. And machines can be broken", actually
How does that illustrate your point? Heretic geth =/= synthetics. It's not a conflict of synthetics and organics, it's an example of the Reapers doing their machinations to weaken the galaxy by getting help of a small geth faction. That's it.
"You're not even alive." is the more important part, actually. Thanks for bringing that up.
What do you want? Dozens of examples of synthetic races in one game? They had a trilogy and increasingly gave more and more examples. Do you want me to list them?
The geth are simply the most consistent. The Reapers are simply the most prominent. There were at least several other ones given throughout the trilogy.
In ME2 they are mostly depicted as more of a danger or a tool/ally.
In ME3 they are mostly depicted as more of a tool/ally or as valid as organic life.
It's just that in ME1, the most you can do is wonder whether the Quarians deserved it, but for everything else, you're anti-synthetic in dialogue - that they're neither tools or allies or valid life, but just a danger.
It's a series. Themes progress. Shepard becomes more machine, slightly questions himself, and potentially learns. Or doesn't. Over time, you decide what determines a human, what determines life, and what is the right way to respond to such issues.
This is something that I don't see Bioware dropping for the next game btw.
It was a battle of us vs them. We're not going to choose them, are we?
Kinda simplistic don't you think? There is more to the organic vs synthetic dynamic than just the Reapers. In ME1 alone we had The Morning War, the gambling AI, the Council's anti synthetic laws, the Luna VI/EDI. Then we get to ME2 where we have EDI being shackled for no reason, Project Overlord, the virus that made the mechs go kill happy. It's certainly not the thing the story focuses on beyond the Reapers and the devs did a poor job making these other things relevant but the ME1 artbook shows it was meant to be a large issue, even Drew says this.
And hell only 36% of people made peace with the Quarians and Geth in ME3.
Kinda simplistic don't you think? There is more to the organic vs synthetic dynamic than just the Reapers. In ME1 alone we had The Morning War, the gambling AI, the Council's anti synthetic laws, the Luna VI/EDI. Then we get to ME2 where we have EDI being shackled for no reason, Project Overlord, the virus that made the mechs go kill happy. It's certainly not the thing the story focuses on beyond the Reapers and the devs did a poor job making these other things relevant but the ME1 artbook shows it was meant to be a large issue, even Drew says this.
And hell only 36% of people made peace with the Quarians and Geth in ME3.
And then we have the Rachni Wars, the Krogan Rebellions, The First Contact War, the Unification Wars, not to mention the Prothean Empire in general.
Maybe it's organic vs organic 
Also, it is completely impossible to make peace between the quarians and the geth without an imported game. Meaning anyone who took Bioware seriously that ME3 "is the best place to start" was hosed from the beginning in that regard.
And then we have the Rachni Wars, the Krogan Rebellions, The First Contact War, the Unification Wars, not to mention the Prothean Empire in general.
Maybe it's organic vs organic
Yeah organics being in conflict with one another is a theme. You spend most of ME1 butting heads with the council. Then you can spend ME2 butting heads with TIM.
Also, it is completely impossible to make peace between the quarians and the geth without an imported game. Meaning anyone who took Bioware seriously that ME3 "is the best place to start" was hosed from the beginning in that regard.
I'm aware. Turning it into something optional like that IMO was a mistake. As a result it lost any potential relevance it may have had.
"You're not even alive." is the more important part, actually. Thanks for bringing that up.
What do you want? Dozens of examples of synthetic races in one game? They had a trilogy and increasingly gave more and more examples. Do you want me to list them?
The geth are simply the most consistent. The Reapers are simply the most prominent. There were at least several other ones given throughout the trilogy.
In ME2 they are mostly depicted as more of a danger or a tool/ally.
In ME3 they are mostly depicted as more of a tool/ally or as valid as organic life.
It's just that in ME1, the most you can do is wonder whether the Quarians deserved it, but for everything else, you're anti-synthetic in dialogue - that they're neither tools or allies or valid life, but just a danger.
It's a series. Themes progress. Shepard becomes more machine, slightly questions himself, and potentially learns. Or doesn't. Over time, you decide what determines a human, what determines life, and what is the right way to respond to such issues.
This is something that I don't see Bioware dropping for the next game btw.
Saying that having a faction of geth threaten organics constitutes a theme of an inevitable conflict between synthetics and organics is like saying that having a faction of humans (Cerberus, for example) threaten other races constitutes an inevitable conflict between organics and other organics. It's just senseless generalization.
As for the rest, you are right, it is a series and themes progress. For example, we find out that majority of geth does not wish harm to organics. We learn it from Legion in ME2. The conflict is complex, not encompassing all synthetics, but just a small faction of them and most importantly, it's possible to be resolved. It's not inevitable. In the so called "logic" of Star Jar Binks, there is this notion of INEVITABLE conflict between organics and synthetics, and that is something we NEVER see. So thank YOU for illustrating MY point
The "yo dawg synthetics" meme may be crude, but it sums up the whole issue perfectly.
EDIT: Partially ninja'd on the "organic vs organic" thing 
Honestly sounds to me like you should be complaining to the Leviathans for their shoddy programming. They didn't have an issues keeping organic races inline so they never bothered programming the Catalyst to prevent it.
Maybe you're missing the whole part where I said that the larger themes are of intelligence and choice.
Organic vs Synthetic is just as prominent as it is, because they illustrate different types of potential intelligence. There is the humanistic sense, the transhumanistic sense, and also (as it emerges starting from ME2) the posthumanistic sense.
Javik does put it kinda nicely, in a way. Synthetics aren't just there like organics - they know where they came from, and their advancement (RATE) outstrips us quickly.
If each geth program could be a person in our physical realm, then they'd already have trillions of people walking around and capable of computation well beyond any of our minds.
(I'm being hypothetical here, but I can't help but imagine that the geth are the way they are (staying in the flashlight head platform bodies), because they want to stay as much like themselves as possible, just in case the Quarians seek contact with them. No proof, just a feeling.)
So yeah, there's an element of choice in how we want to deal with that, a whole other type of intelligence, and that's been present with the geth since the first mission. First, we fight them - no choice. Later on, we may or may not ally with some. Eventually, we can decide what we want to do with the whole geth 'species'.
The Reapers are a combination of several major threats (I'll use ME1 ones in this case).
-They connect to each other and others akin to Rachni, but in a synthetic mode
-They create mental thralls like the Thorian
-They threaten to destroy our civilizations, eventually right at our doors, like the Krogan
-They consider themselves synthetics, like the Geth
-They wrongly/inaccurately believe they intrinsically know better than others, like repeated examples from individuals and factions throughout the game
More stuff is added in with ME2. Through our treatment of these conflicts, our Shepard may make his final choice. Obviously if he's more Renegade and chooses Control, it's going to be for a more selfish reason. Obviously if he's more Paragon and chooses Destroy, it's with a heavier heart.
But in the end, the Reapers are not only symbolic of the organic/synthetic conflict, but also of everything we've seen so far rolled into one. Just so happens that they're also big giant robots, so the big choice with them is going to center more around what to do with big giant robots.
But wait - this isn't a giant defense of some legit problem in the MEU. I actually think that while this is all well and good, the conflict problem is a red herring. A red herring is a type of fallacy that presents something *irrelevant*, in order to distract from the main issue.
The synthetic/organic thing is real. We can RP to acknowledge that, and make our choice on that.
But as Shepard puts it: "We're fighting the Reapers right now!"
And that's your boss fight. IF you want it. If you want it, then go Destroy and move on. You won. You beat it.
If you don't care for a boss fight, then make your more varied choice. It's fine. You also won.
Then wait for the next game or ignore it. It's been 2 years. Hate the brat. Go ahead. Just maybe, maybe, understand that the writers already know your opinion (being reiterated through 100s of other posts by other people) and they will do whatever they're gonna do at this point. We'll see how planned out they really have things, if at all.
But its probably gonna be about synthetics and organics, to at least some significant extent. Like all the other games.
OK, now you've lost me. I have no idea what you're on about at this point. Again, the sole fact that in the plot there are synthetics and organics and some of them fight each other doesn't mean there is some inherent "conflict" between all synthetics and all organics on a thematic level. That's all I'm saying.
Almost every example of AI came with conflict that was not just expected, but disastrous or potentially disastrous. There has been *0* where an AI emerged without conflict and danger, at the very least.
-Citadel AI sees that it is illegal, and freaks, forces us to kill it or it kills itself
-Luna VI was made as a weaponized military training tool, and freaks (remember that this is technically EDI's origin; the other part being of Sovereign's code, a robot that we *destroyed*)
-Geth wanted to be more than tools, and the Quarians freaked
-Overlord was a different sort (a merging of AI and 'NI'), but regardless, it freaked out even more
-Javik's story, if we are to believe it
It is a thing. Only exception I can think of is that Cerberus News story of the one ship.
But like I was saying - it's BESIDE the point. Amazingly, the Catalyst might at least be right that the Leviathan is part of the problem 
. WTF?
Because conflict, control, domination, war itself is not inherent to any specific type of life. We all do it. The Leviathans, probably like the Prothians do, see conflict between organics to be 'natural evolution'. The Levis won out with that. Woo, apex. But then there's all these organics being wiped out by synthetic beings they they create. Boo! Why? Because organics believe that conflict and control are specifically of their domain.
And its THIS stuff that is core to everything we see in the trilogy. Entities in conflict, entities destroying, entities wanting to fight those different from themselves.
The Catalyst is a lore dump. We just don't have to agree with its conclusions. It's the friggin Reaper God.
I think a problem is that we're experiencing the stage of the Reaper experiment like when Mordin was experiencing the stage of the Krogan situation when they started to naturally adapt outside the genophage's confines and attempt a resurgence.
We don't see the past cycles. We don't see the original Reaper cycle. We don't see the devastation that synthetics may have wroght onto organics in the past.
Basically, we lack context. And that, in itself, might be okay. Shepard is a character that constantly lacks context. That's what happens with your core archetype is a soldier that mostly sticks to his mission.
But don't mistake 'Oh I was able to make peace this one time temporarily between an organic and synthetic species so we could fight this other biosynthetic species' to mean 'nah we all good with synthetics now and problem solved'.
~~~
Honestly, this reminds me of Dragon Age - just obviously on the much more huge scale. During DA:O and kinda DA2, it's VERY easy to sympathize with the mages overall, in the larger scale. Oh, they had that giant corrupt empire? Whatever, they deserve their freedom (this is actually still my position btw). Oh, one screwed up mage could quickly kill a whole town? Whatever, the Circle system is busted and Annulment is immoral.
Well, get ready now for a story where the Fade is torn open, Mages are largely 'apostate', and we see what happens with more maximum freedom for them. And it'll involve a lot of deaths and demons.
Get ready for the same in Mass Effect. Really, get ready. I know the slides show some nice stuff, but get ready for organics to RUN WILD with messing with synthetic life. The foreshadowing is all over the place.
Synthetics are stand-ins for order. Organics are stand-ins for chaos. (at least on the galactic scale) This WAS here since ME1, no matter the protests otherwise. We can use our experiences with other 'order and chaos' toned dilemmas in order to decide what kind of person we are. Do we 'shut down' the Krogan, or do we try to temper them, or do we outright embrace the prospect of peace with them? No, it's not the same as synthetic vs organic - but it doesn't have to be. It's just one major theme which assists larger ones; ones like choice, intelligence, chaos, and order.
Hint:
The rest is up to you.
Agreed, I'm totally lost in what he's saying as his arguement. As such, a few fight here and their doesn't make a conflict for a moral theam for a lore stand point. The theam of serise is doing the impossible and Uninty over chaos those are the theams of the series. It's not conflicts with Synthiecs as such our true conflict is with the reapers. The reapers are the main reason the Geth turnred by hacking them in the first place. Heck, in Javki cycle he states that they had a faction like the Geth in the long run they where hacked by the reapers... See the pattern here the reapers caused those Synthiecs to rise up and the Geth where defending themselves....." So thier isn't a conflict that warent this as a theam of the serise.
Wait, are you actually thinking that people are saying that organics vs synthetics is the MAIN theme for the series?
Because it isn't. It never was.
Just because the antagonist says it is, doesn't mean it is.
That's the point. That's the red herring. *** http://www.eurogamer...s-a-red-herring ***
But it IS *A* central theme. If only because it is what the Reapers run on.
And you know what you can do? Say it with me... DESTROY.
Or not. You've spent the series resisting and fighting and running from the Reapers, and you can submit whatever part of yourself to them. Whatever. That's where choice matters.
Would you be just as against Dark Energy ending? Because Dark Energy also didn't really have much to do with any of the themes, but still had us going against or with the Reapers at the end. To fight them as chaotic organics, or join them as ordered..synthetics/Reapers. The chaos and order elements would have likely stayed, as well at at least reference to an importance on organics vs synthetics.
Anyway, when it comes to the Catalyst itself, I can understand all the hate and confusion about it. Mostly because it seems like a deliberately annoying and confusing character, as far as I can see. The colored waves then added insult to emotional injury.
Maybe that's the point. Try to take that line of thought and see where you arrive. Not even talking IT here, or whatever I believe.
EDIT: My biggest critique of Bioware is not most of the stuff that others say on BSN, but instead that I get a distinct 'trolling' feeling from them, when I think it is totally unwarranted. I think they've been toying with us, and pretty much pulling a psychological experiment, and if I'm right about that, then fine, I can feel intrigued about that, but it is not cool for the ending of a trilogy.
Because conflict, control, domination, war itself is not inherent to any specific type of life. We all do it. The Leviathans, probably like the Prothians do, see conflict between organics to be 'natural evolution'. The Levis won out with that. Woo, apex. But then there's all these organics being wiped out by synthetic beings they they create. Boo! Why? Because organics believe that conflict and control are specifically of their domain.
This is an interesting point I'm not certain gets enough consideration. The Leviathans reached the point no species in their servitude could threaten them, we were above the concerns of lesser species. Meanwhile the Protheans believed conflict between organic races was the natural order of things and the strongest should rule to the point Garrus thought Javik was nuts. Yes, organics fighting organics is a theme. It's a theme because we're supposed to ask ourselves if they're right, the strongest should dominate, or if there is a better way. I see how this question is supposed to relate to the endings but I don't think it was conveyed well.
Organic vs synthetic is supposed to make us question what defines life. Is synthetic life unnatural as the Protheans would suggest and thus needs to be destroyed? They're both there, they both serve a purpose. You don't have to agree with anyone arguing for either.
Yeah it's not presented the best.
Or at least, it's not presented the best if ME3 was meant to be the final game that they're going to deal with such things.
I think..or hope..or guess..whatever the word - that the trilogy is actually just the training toy for what's next. Next up, we get in the actual car and ride into the future.
But like with so many things I blab about, I guess we'll see.
If I'm right, then I may regard the ME3 script as the best I've ever experienced (YES REALLLYYY). If I'm wrong, then it's just 'eh, okay'.
Yeah it's not presented the best.
Or at least, it's not presented the best if ME3 was meant to be the final game that they're going to deal with such things.
I think..or hope..or guess..whatever the word - that the trilogy is actually just the training toy for what's next. Next up, we get in the actual car and ride into the future.
But like with so many things I blab about, I guess we'll see.
If I'm right, then I may regard the ME3 script as the best I've ever experienced (YES REALLLYYY). If I'm wrong, then it's just 'eh, okay'.
You could, of course, be correct, but I think the "bad writing hypothesis" is probably far more parsimonious. Honestly, if I had to bet, I'd guess that you personally have put more thought into the what the endings mean and how they fit into the overall trilogy as whole while typing responses in this thread than Walters and Hudson ever did while they were actually writing the ending.
You could, of course, be correct, but I think the "bad writing hypothesis" is probably far more parsimonious. Honestly, if I had to bet, I'd guess that you personally have put more thought into the what the endings mean and how they fit into the overall trilogy as whole while typing responses in this thread than Walters and Hudson ever did while they were actually writing the ending.
You could, of course, be correct, but I think the "bad writing hypothesis" is probably far more parsimonious. Honestly, if I had to bet, I'd guess that you personally have put more thought into the what the endings mean and how they fit into the overall trilogy as whole while typing responses in this thread than Walters and Hudson ever did while they were actually writing the ending.
I tend to agree that he put more though into the ending than any of the persons you mentioned. I may disagree with his premise but at least he can make a good debate of something that does not make sense. As the writing, didn't go over too well with folks if you have too look for these things in your writing. I found the reapers to be the main conflict not the Organic vs Synthiecs plot device they came up with.
The Reapers vs. Galaxy/Shepard are the main conflict.A conflict isn't the same as a theme.There's plenty of ways to win over conflicts, but only one way to be victorious.
True a theme doesn't always mean conflict. A theme can be anything from unity and think for yourselves. I think mostly the theme was not organic vs Synthiecs as it had more to do with free will and such things. The thing is if you have to dig that deeply to find this as a main theme thing it bad writing period.
There is never 'the theme' in any story.
I don't know why you seem to keep declaring things as if there is. Stories have many central themes, not just one.
You don't have to dig deep for 'synthetic vs organic' as a central theme. At all. It's just not the very biggest one. And that's okay. The final conversation is more about whether you'll comply with the Catalyst (whether its right or wrong) or reject it, and how you'll do so. For now, just do your best to enjoy the win.
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