981 réponses à ce sujet

[BaladasDemnevanni]

An obvious copout, a whole bunch of foreshadowing evaporating into nothingness....I would have hated that myself. At least, I think so; it's difficult to judge such a counterfactual. But I've been pretty consistent throughout my life in really disliking "mystery." Mysteries are fine, as long as they're solved.

 

This is a fair point. On some level, it's easy to say "well, Bioware should have just not given the Reapers' a motive", since the explanation we got was probably the crappiest approach possible.

 

On the other hand, if we were living in that world where Bioware never explained their origins, I (and others) might very well be complaining that they should have given us an explanation.

[AlanC9]

It's a fairly idle speculation anyway, since there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the writers ever even considered going that route.

[grey_wind]

An obvious copout, a whole bunch of foreshadowing evaporating into nothingness....I would have hated that myself. At least, I think so; it's difficult to judge such a counterfactual. But I've been pretty consistent throughout my life in really disliking "mystery." Mysteries are fine, as long as they're solved.

Out of curiosity, what would your thoughts be if they had just left the Reaper motive at the self-propagating angle they suggested in ME2?

[Deathsaurer]

Out of curiosity, what would your thoughts be if they had just left the Reaper motive at the self-propagating angle they suggested in ME2?

If they don't die why bother adding more inferior species to the collective? What are they afraid of to warrant that sort of behavior?

[Kel Riever]

You know, simple dominance is a good enough reason that anyone could understand.  I'm not saying there couldn't be better or more original, but Reapers wanting to maintain dominance and perpetuate themselves would have been fine.  Really, it would have.

[Deathsaurer]

Why not just render all garden worlds uninhabitable? Harvesting races for nearly a billion years is stupid when you can just drop asteroids on everything and call it a day. Then you have Harbinger babbling about salvation through destruction.

[Kel Riever]

Presumably you make the decision that reapers are enhanced themselves through harvesting. Easy enough without going star brat crazy.

[CronoDragoon]

So here you go, just of the top of my head. Not in order, not sorted from worst to least worst, just what I remembered now. And none of these were in previous games, except maybe for streamlining the dialogue at times in ME2. So yeah, there's a lot to dislike about ME3.

 

I have no doubt that there's a lot you personally dislike about ME3. I could easily make such a list for ME1 and ME2, though. Does that make them bad games?

 

[Deathsaurer]

Presumably you make the decision that reapers are enhanced themselves through harvesting. Easy enough without going tar brat crazy.

Enhance themselves how? Everything we use is a cheap knockoff of their tech. There is literally no plot you can come up with that will make sense for them because they rely on organics somehow being special for reasons or the Reapers being utter morons doing things the most inefficient way possible.

 

And let me add there are several mistakes in making the Reapers the main enemy. They are too old, too advanced and thus have nothing reasonable to gain from us. And they're too big to be personal enemies. They sound good on paper but once you try to implement them they start causing serious issues.

[wolfhowwl]

Maybe they should have figured out a motive when writing the Reapers in ME1...

 

Nah.

[SwobyJ]

They have everything to gain from us.

 

And their future depends on us.

[grey_wind]

Enhance themselves how? Everything we use is a cheap knockoff of their tech. There is literally no plot you can come up with that will make sense for them because they rely on organics somehow being special for reasons or the Reapers being utter morons doing things the most inefficient way possible.

 

And let me add there are several mistakes in making the Reapers the main enemy. They are too old, too advanced and thus have nothing reasonable to gain from us. And they're too big to be personal enemies. They sound good on paper but once you try to implement them they start causing serious issues.

Not necessarily. If we explored the idea of ascendance, its advantages and what the Reaper neural network (the collective brain power and data of billions of organics) is truly capable of, then an argument could be made for why the Reapers consider it a necessity to "ascend" organics.

 

Of course, that would require the plot to actually treat the Reapers as characters. ME3, as it is, treats them more like a natural disaster.

[Deathsaurer]

Honestly the Reapers needed to be a younger, slightly more advanced than us race that isn't composed of warships. Then you wouldn't have to have such a convoluted reason for their behavior.

 

 

 

Not necessarily. If we explored the idea of ascendance, its advantages and what the Reaper neural network (the collective brain power and data of billions of organics) is truly capable of, then an argument could be made for why the Reapers consider it a necessity to "ascend" organics.

 

Of course, that would require the plot to actually treat the Reapers as character. ME3, as it is, treats them more like a natural disaster.

Still doesn't work. As per ME3 they also harvest synthetics so they don't need organics in any way shape or form.

[SwobyJ]

Not necessarily. If we explored the idea of ascendance, its advantages and what the Reaper neural network (the collective brain power and data of billions of organics) is truly capable of, then an argument could be made for why the Reapers consider it a necessity to "ascend" organics.

 

Of course, that would require the plot to actually treat the Reapers as characters. ME3, as it is, treats them more like a natural disaster.

 

Yeah, as it is.

 

Honestly the Reapers needed to be a younger, slightly more advanced than us race that isn't composed of warships. Then you wouldn't have to have such a convoluted reason for their behavior.

 

Well, I'm up for that...

[von uber]

Maybe they should have just left it as 'reasons'.
Not knowing why can sometimes be more effective.

[Kel Riever]

Enhance themselves how? Everything we use is a cheap knockoff of their tech. There is literally no plot you can come up with that will make sense for them because they rely on organics somehow being special for reasons or the Reapers being utter morons doing things the most inefficient way possible.

 

And let me add there are several mistakes in making the Reapers the main enemy. They are too old, too advanced and thus have nothing reasonable to gain from us. And they're too big to be personal enemies. They sound good on paper but once you try to implement them they start causing serious issues.

 

The best thing you can do, and even with no explanation it is STILL better than what we got, is come up with a reason that as a galactic species, the Reapers consider an even greater threat to be from outside the galaxy.  It is an infinitely huge universe and it leads to something even more potentially frightening than the Reapers maybe in the future.  But even if you don't go there, it makes sense.  Are the Reapers the strongest species in the absolute universe?  No, there's always something bigger.  And that's their fear.

 

Now why harvest?  Why is just an awful answer that gets black boxed no matter what you do, thanks to ME2.  Why do Reapers need organic goo to make more Reapers?  IDUNNO.  But nobody apparently cared much in ME2, because KOOL I SHOOT A HUMAN REAPER!  Well, and you dropped them from space to start your story off.  So...herp...space goo makes more reapers and that's why they need organics.  And maybe human goo is especially good goo.  But that's it.  Don't tell me about fires, and war, and synthetics versus organics, and all that other nonsense.

 

This isn't my idea for the best story ever.  Just a story that was better than we got.  And honestly, most people could come up with better ideas than the end of ME3 or mine.

[grey_wind]

Still doesn't work. As per ME3 they also harvest synthetics so they don't need organics in any way shape or form.

Yeah, but that's because ME3 pretty much retconned the way Harbinger implied the harvest worked in ME2.

 

Honestly the Reapers needed to be a younger, slightly more advanced than us race that isn't composed of warships. Then you wouldn't have to have such a convoluted reason for their behaviour.

I'd have gone with no Reapers at all. That way. a lot of interesting stories can be told with the universe without the stupid cuttlefish bringing in the apocalypse and upheaving the entire setting.

[SwobyJ]

There is no Mass Effect without Reapers. Giant genocidal machines were there in their plans from the very beginning. It's the reasoning behind the whole MEU and everything in it.

[Deathsaurer]

Yeah, but that's because ME3 pretty much retconned the way Harbinger implied the harvest worked in ME2.

 

 

 

It was implied in ME2. Legion said Sovereign offered the Geth a Reaper body to upload into thus replacing the dyson sphere. All the Catalyst did was confirm the offer was legit. Of course most people never see that conversation... Thank you for making the derelict Reaper the trigger for the Collector abduction Bioware.

[SwobyJ]

You only learn everything if you look everywhere.

 

But yes, the whole Legion pacing was damn weak.

[grey_wind]

It was implied in ME2. Legion said Sovereign offered the Geth a Reaper body to upload into thus replacing the dyson sphere. All the Catalyst did was confirm the offer was legit. Of course most people never see that conversation... Thank you for making the derelict Reaper the trigger for the Collector abduction Bioware.

Legion never says the Heretics were offered a Reaper body. All he gives is a vague "the Old Machines offered them their future", and ME1 already tells us Sovereign planned on betraying them and making them the Keepers' replacement.

[grey_wind]

There is no Mass Effect without Reapers. Giant genocidal machines were there in their plans from the very beginning. It's the reasoning behind the whole MEU and everything in it.

I know. But personally I don't see them as necessary. You can still write a compelling story about a civilization that has built itself atop the remnants of an old one without fully understanding the technology they're using. Oh well.

[Mcfly616]

They're not necessary to the MEU. However, they were completely central to the Shepard Trilogy. They were always the driving force behind the narrative.

[SwobyJ]

I never got where Sovereign was going to betray the Geth... do you remember where?

 

All I got was that it was going to give them Reaper tech, and it was worded by Legion to sound like they would at least be part of a Reaper.

And that it viewed them as much lower than itself.

 

EDIT: The Keeper stuff was speculation from the Wiki. I'll need a source for that.

As far as I've seen or remember..

1)Sovereign used them as tools (duh)

2)Sovereign viewed them as far below him (duh)

3)But Sovereign honestly approached the geth, and only introduced the code change for heretics AFTER the schism happened

[grey_wind]

I never got where Sovereign was going to betray the Geth... do you remember where?

 

All I got was that it was going to give them Reaper tech, and it was worded by Legion to sound like they would at least be part of a Reaper.

And that it viewed them as much lower than itself.

Vigil brings up the fact that the most likely reason Sovereign allied with the Heretics is because he sees a synthetic race as a more controllable replacement for the Keepers (who evolved in an unpredictable direction).