981 réponses à ce sujet

[Kel Riever]

I don't really care much, as the person buying a game, why the game's third installment blew the whole series, I just know it did.  And sure, I can't prove if BioWare admits to mistakes, but I think that the statements coming from the company itself being rather blockheaded, and reeking of arrogance and no wrong doing reflect the culture, so when placing a bet as to things getting fixed, I said, 'Nah.'  That was after the EC and since then, there were the paid DLC releases of which I purchased none.  Dragon Age II which I was going to go back and get with DLC and now entirely skipped....and from what I hear, my dollars were well saved.

 

Is my point of view true for everyone?  Nah.  But do I think that what BioWare people have said about 'vocal minorities' is anything but ridiculous fandom with no backup?  Yep.  Yep I do.

 

Still, the product is done.  ME3 sp mode is a bad one, and I would still forgive if it wasn't for that atrocious ending, and the attitude that I do see prevelant.  So the entertainment now comes from making fun of it   And there's a lot of entertainment in that!

 

Someone needs to take the MEU away from BioWare and do something good with it. 

[AlanC9]

I looked up Ray's letter again. It is the definition of corporate newspeak. Or grass-speak (I don't know if it'a term used in English language, but it fits ever so well.

Interesting metaphor. What does "grass-speak" derive from?

[AlanC9]

 
To be fair, I get people, especially at the Cons, who will say, “I loved it. It was heart-wrenching, but I felt it was right for my Shepard.” And to me, that’s why it was the right path. But because there was no choice, it was going to be right for some people, and for others, in the middle, and other people were obviously very upset about it. In hindsight, I don’t think there was anything we would have changed about that, but it is a really good lesson learned.

Sounds fine to me.

[Iakus]

Sounds fine to me.

 

No, it's not fine at all.

 

If you do a trilogy of games where choices are supposed to matter, and "these are your Shepards" you need to cast as wide a net as you possibly can. 

 

My Shepard =/= Your Shepard

[Kel Riever]

The problem with people who say they are all 'moved' by the ending(s) which are atrocious pieces of writing, is that for all I can see, they're not even paying attention to the words.  What they are paying attention to is the music, the visual display, and the great desire to not put a pin into the 100 hour game experience they completed.  Most don't seem to be able to hold a candle to the argument when it comes to talking through the story and the dialogue.  That isn't 100% true but I find it to be mostly true.  In other words, all the vast story behind Mass Effect, or what I'd even argue is the point of playing Mass Effect, is lost on them.  They are as 'moved' as when they play a first person shooter, like Halo, which has a pretty shallow story by comparisson (though one in which they did not screw up the ending).

[AlanC9]

No, it's not fine at all.
 
If you do a trilogy of games where choices are supposed to matter, and "these are your Shepards" you need to cast as wide a net as you possibly can. 
 
My Shepard =/= Your Shepard

Because Shepards are different, each Shepard should get an ending that suits the character? As opposed to the world simply reacting to the choices that Shepard makes?

[Iakus]

Because Shepards are different, each Shepard should get an ending that suits the character? As opposed to the world simply reacting to the choices that Shepard makes?

 

Within the limits of current technology, yes. 

[AlanC9]

In other words, all the vast story behind Mass Effect, or what I'd even argue is the point of playing Mass Effect, is lost on them.

I guess you'd better tell me what the point if playing Mass Effect is. Sounds like I might be one of those people who Just Doesn't Get It.

[AlanC9]

Within the limits of current technology, yes.

Yeah, I thought that was it. Then we simply disagree on what games ought to be trying to do in the first place.

[Kel Riever]

I guess you'd better tell me what the point if playing Mass Effect is. Sounds like I might be one of those people who Just Doesn't Get It.

 

Nah, you are just being difficult, if you don't mind me saying so

 

I think you know I didn't describe you in what I posted.

[AlanC9]

Nah, you are just being difficult, if you don't mind me saying so
 
I think you know I didn't describe you in what I posted.

Sometimes I play clueless, but this time I genuinely lost track of the argument.

[Kel Riever]

Sometimes I play clueless, but this time I genuinely lost track of the argument.

 

I give you credit for backing up your points of view.

 

What I am saying is, and it is strictly my opinion, but that I see a lot of people saying they are 'moved' by the ending, and they aren't talking about the story at all...sadly, it seems they think they are.  But when they start talking about all the things they like, they're talking about the music, and the visual effects, and how 'it was a great ending for my character after a big long game play.'  Then when criticism about the ending making sense gets put in front of them, they retreat to feeling insulted.  That's a silly response if you ask me.  And sure, while you could play Mass Effect for the music, you could also just play the soundtrack....

 

You could play Mass Effect for shooting people, but you could play Halo....You could play Mass effect for your visual entertainment, but you could see a movie.

 

So, I don't want to say the point of Mass Effect is strictly something else, but yes, obviously, there's another point, even beyond those things combined together.  Maybe not for everyone, but I think it is pretty clear that Mass Effect is also supposed to be about the choices you make.  Not only because, well, when I play it, I have a choice meter shoved in my face most of the game, and what happens on it is based on what I pick (well, heheh, except for that ending(s) but that's another topic...) but also because, hey, look at that BioWare telling me its about the choices I make and its my own game.  You know, choices made based on the story.

 

It is pretty astounding to me how someone can say they are moved by the game, therefore, and pay seemingly no attention to the story or the choices they made.  I mean, sure, I'm not going to tell someone what to like about the game.  But I just find that kind of person rather clueless.

[Iakus]

Yeah, I thought that was it. Then we simply disagree on what games ought to be trying to do in the first place.

 

Lots of choices should mean lots of outcomes.

 

Not three highly dubious outcomes with various levels of destruction, and Shepard him/herself forced to burn no matter what.

[KaiserShep]

I don't recall any such rule that someone who may have been affected in a generally positive way by the ending should be clueless about the story, or the "point" of Mass Effect. Being aware of its flaws does not preclude one having a positive feeling about something. McFly pointed out to me that the Suicide Mission is underwhelming if not for its soundtrack. Funny enough, I tried this, and it's true. The Suicide Mission soundtrack is the one part of the finale of Mass Effect 2 that sticks in how well it affects me as the player with every replay, just like how the visual of the jump through the Omega 4 relay did. It's come to the point where I can honestly say that the combat sequences in Priority: Earth felt more effective and visceral, due in part to how little soundtrack it actually had.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The problem with people who say they are all 'moved' by the ending(s) which are atrocious pieces of writing, is that for all I can see, they're not even paying attention to the words.  What they are paying attention to is the music, the visual display, and the great desire to not put a pin into the 100 hour game experience they completed.  Most don't seem to be able to hold a candle to the argument when it comes to talking through the story and the dialogue.  That isn't 100% true but I find it to be mostly true.  In other words, all the vast story behind Mass Effect, or what I'd even argue is the point of playing Mass Effect, is lost on them.  They are as 'moved' as when they play a first person shooter, like Halo, which has a pretty shallow story by comparisson (though one in which they did not screw up the ending).

 

Now I'm not saying the ending is a masterpiece by any means, but I'd also say people calling it "atrocious" (well, the second cut, anyway) are exaggerating just as much, since many of the "issues" they raise with it are not really issues at all if you ask me.

 

And people get real up-in-arms when I suggest they didn't understand some of these things, but when I'm saying "I get it, and [x] makes sense" while you're saying "I get it, and [x] doesn't make sense," then one of has to be wrong. I daresay it isn't me.

[Kel Riever]

I don't recall any such rule that someone who may have been affected in a generally positive way by the ending should be clueless about the story, or the "point" of Mass Effect.

 

Nope, that's misreading what I said.

 

HYR you also misread what I said.

 

You both also quoted something I didn't say.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Interesting metaphor. What does "grass-speak" derive from?

 

It's a translated Polish expression "mowa-trawa" ("mowa" translates as speech, "trawa" means grass), which stands for claptrap.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Nope, that's misreading what I said.

 

HYR you also misread what I said.

 

You both also quoted something I didn't say.

 

I responded to you calling the endings "atrocious pieces of writing," which you did.

 

The next part was merely branching off of the fact that I see many of people's issues with the ending (for which it's considered atrocious) as non-issues, because I understand their meaning differently, but that opens up the whole can-of-worms about who really "gets it."

 

Not saying that's what you were saying, just responding to that thing preemptively.

[Kel Riever]

No, I did call the writing atrocious.  I was talking about the other parts.

 

I think that piece of writing was atrocious.  I think you, or me, or a whole ton of people with at least a secondary school english class could have proofread that once and made revisions which would have at least saved the writing from the point of view of making sense.  Wanting a particular outcome for the game has nothing to do with at least putting together a coherent reason for it.  Hell, I think there's even a long list of people with a high school diploma who could write something better.  And that's why it is atrocious.

 

The good news for up and coming writers is, if a person like Mac is writing what you see at the end of ME3, they should feel really good about their chances of being successful!

[CronoDragoon]

I looked up Ray's letter again. It is the definition of corporate newspeak. Or grass-speak (I don't know if it'a term used in English language, but it fits ever so well.

Aside from all else, the artistic vision/integrity argument was reduced to smithereens when they, you know, actually did change the ending? They retconned the mass relays exploding, making them damaged only and they added a scene where Normandy takes off from the surreal jungle planet, making it crashing there in the first place so utterly pointless it's funny.

 

But isn't it possible that they simply changed what they wanted to change with the endings and didn't change what they liked, within the time constraints given to them?

 

As for ShadowLord's post, it's mostly what I was talking about with people reading BW's statements with a pre-existing motivation to ascibe negative intent to BW, just because BW didn't change what they disliked about the ending.

 

That's another reason why a complete rewrite was unreasonable (besides financially): no one could agree what was wrong with the endings. Some really did just want clarification, others wanted the Catalyst removed completely, others just wanted a reunion happy ending scene, others wanted Destroy retconned, others wanted all of the above. It's clear BW looked at all the complaints and decided that ones like "clarity and closure" were the ones they could most effectively address in the EC.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem with people who say they are all 'moved' by the ending(s) which are atrocious pieces of writing, is that for all I can see, they're not even paying attention to the words.  What they are paying attention to is the music, the visual display, and the great desire to not put a pin into the 100 hour game experience they completed.  Most don't seem to be able to hold a candle to the argument when it comes to talking through the story and the dialogue.  That isn't 100% true but I find it to be mostly true.  In other words, all the vast story behind Mass Effect, or what I'd even argue is the point of playing Mass Effect, is lost on them.  They are as 'moved' as when they play a first person shooter, like Halo, which has a pretty shallow story by comparisson (though one in which they did not screw up the ending).

 

The soundtrack at various points during the game and at end struck the right notes at the right times. The soundtrack and the visuals drew attention away from the horrid writing.

[KaiserShep]

I actually love most of the destroy epilogue and I enjoyed Hackett's speech. Actual cutscenes would be preferable, but I thought the visuals were good nonetheless.

[AlanC9]

I thought the Control narration was pretty good too. Not a fan of Synthesis' presentation, but I think that's mostly because they ducked the interesting question.

[CronoDragoon]

I thought the Control narration was pretty good too. Not a fan of Synthesis' presentation, but I think that's mostly because they ducked the interesting question.

 

I'll bite: the interesting question was...? (I have several myself, which is why I ask)

[Iakus]

Control gets credit for at least having a paragon/renegade version ending.  And Renegade is appropriately spooky.

 

Otherwise all the endings duck out of the "really interesting" questions.

 

By which I mean "unpleasant implications"