981 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

I wouldn't call it evidence. Assuming the Prothean scientists did something else to the station because it is necessary for a fan theory that fills in a plot hole isn't exactly compelling stuff

there's no plot hole. And its not a theory. It's an observation. If by blocking the signal that the Reapers send to the Keepers causes the Dark Space Relay to 'not' open....and it STILL doesn't open. Doesn't that sort of imply that the Catalyst is unable to open it without the use of the Reapers?


That's just kind of obvious.

[ShadowLordXII]

snip

We've already gone over why the thrall explanation doesn't work.

 

It makes no sense for the Star-Child, this sophisticated and calculative pinnacle of AI, to deliberately lock itself out of action within the cycles. Even if it can't "physically" interact with stuff, why would it need to seeing as that it's software installed into hardware that it designed and created? Furthermore, the Reject Ending and the elevator both suggest that the Star-Child can control functions of the Citadel.

 

The logical "strawman argument" of "If it could, then it would've" because there's nothing within the games themselves that suggest that it couldn't. Which means that the only way that this fits is because the Catalyst is stupid, which it clearly isn't considering it's feats and qualities. Flawed perhaps, but still clearly capable of doing whatever it must to continue it's mandate.

 

The "If it could, then it would" argument isn't evidence. It's a contrivance.

[Mcfly616]

We've already gone over why the thrall explanation doesn't work.
 
It makes no sense for the Star-Child, this sophisticated and calculative pinnacle of AI, to deliberately lock itself out of action within the cycles. Even if it can't "physically" interact with stuff, why would it need to seeing as that it's software installed into hardware that it designed and created? Furthermore, the Reject Ending and the elevator both suggest that the Star-Child can control functions of the Citadel.
 
The logical "strawman argument" of "If it could, then it would've" because there's nothing within the games themselves that suggest that it couldn't. Which means that the only way that this fits is because the Catalyst is stupid, which it clearly isn't considering it's feats and qualities. Flawed perhaps, but still clearly capable of doing whatever it must to continue it's mandate.
 
The "If it could, then it would" argument isn't evidence. It's a contrivance.

it holds up just fine considering that its not our concept of what an AI is. Which is why it's wrong to compare it to EDI and the like. Consider who it was created by. A species that dominated the entire galaxy through a raw form of indoctrination. Not technology, but power over the mind. The Catalyst functions in the manner its creators built it. It perfected indoctrination. EDI functions through technology. The Catalyst functions through organic thralls. That's its network. They're nothing alike. Saying it's software installed in hardware is nothing more than an assumption on your part.


As I stated previously, it has control over the station once more when the Reapers retake it at the end of ME3 (hence its control over the elevator and station in the Refuse ending)

[Mcfly616]

The Catalyst functioning through it's thralls and having that connection with them severed, is a much more logical explaination than "bullocks, it can. It just doesn't because it's stupid." Lol

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Vigil specifically states that the scientists altered the signal to the Keepers. Sovereign sent a signal to the Citadel "The galaxy is ripe for harvest." Then something in the Citadel sent a signal to the keepers to open the relay. The Prothean scientists hacked the Catalyst or found the $20 radio that generated the signal to Keeper 25. lol. This made the keepers no longer responsive to the Catalyst. 

 

But since Drew hadn't thought of the Catalyst at the time the signal must have come from Sovereign. Hmmm.... did the Protheans hitch a ride and hack Sovereign?

 

Nah... I don't think that's the case. The control signal got hacked. I'm betting starboy wishes he'd had the keepers directly connect him to the relay while he had the chance.

[ImaginaryMatter]

it holds up just fine considering that its not our concept of what an AI is. Which is why it's wrong to compare it to EDI and the like. Consider who it was created by. A species that dominated the entire galaxy through a raw form of indoctrination. Not technology, but power over the mind. The Catalyst functions in the manner its creators built it. It perfected indoctrination. EDI functions through technology. The Catalyst functions through organic thralls. That's its network. They're nothing alike. Saying it's software installed in hardware is nothing more than an assumption on your part.


As I stated previously, it has control over the station once more when the Reapers retake it at the end of ME3 (hence its control over the elevator and station in the Refuse ending)

 

The Catalyst was able to operate long before it had Organic thralls of any kind. It did take it a while to develop Indoctrination after all.

 

Which still leaves the question why after it built the Citadel to apparently house itself why it didn't give itself direct control over the station through hard wiring. Acting solely through thralls seems pretty inefficient.

[CronoDragoon]

EDI was far smarter than the Catalyst.  Arguably more advanced too.

 

She at least could alter her programming and her priorities when faced with new information.  The Catalyst was little more than a VI.

 

The Catalyst altered its programming when faced with new information; it just didn't find any new information compelling before Shepard docked the Crucible and appeared on its doorstep.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Catalyst altered its programming when faced with new information; it just didn't find any new information compelling before Shepard docked the Crucible and appeared on its doorstep.

 

I always assumed the Crucible (for some horribly unknown reason) forcibly caused the Catalyst to comply somehow. The Catalyst always had the option to choose Destroy itself (order the Reapers to self-destruct or something) and it specifically acknowledges that Destroy will cause the chaos to come back and thus wasn't an actual solution to the problem, which leads me to wonder why the Catalyst would consider undoing billions of years of cycles just because a giant battery plugged into the station. Control has similar issues since the new Shepard doesn't seem dedicated or capable of obtaining a solution the Catalyst did not.

 

The simple existence of the Crucible doesn't seem to change anything as it is willing to let the Reapers blow it up if there is enough time or continue with the cycles anyway if Shepard doesn't specifically choose one of three options. Which leads me to wonder if there is something more complex about the device.

 

Also, not related but it always made me curious since Leviathan. Since the DLC strongly seemed to suggest that the Catalyst was seeking for a method to obtain Synthesis how come it couldn't come up with the idea to make a giant source of energy to chuck an organic into. If the less advanced organics were some how able to design and develop the Crucible during the chaos of the cycles why the Reapers with almost infinitely more time on their hands (space tentacles) and more technology couldn't make a similar solution. I know the Catalyst says it can't be forced (whatever that means) but the plan to have the Reapers build the device and talk a non-Indoctrinated organic into jumping in seems no different than what Shepard did.

[Iakus]

The Catalyst altered its programming when faced with new information; it just didn't find any new information compelling before Shepard docked the Crucible and appeared on its doorstep.

 

SO BE IT!!!

[Deathsaurer]

Also, not related but it always made me curious since Leviathan. Since the DLC strongly seemed to suggest that the Catalyst was seeking for a method to obtain Synthesis how come it couldn't come up with the idea to make a giant source of energy to chuck an organic into. If the less advanced organics were some how able to design and develop the Crucible during the chaos of the cycles why the Reapers with almost infinitely more time on their hands (space tentacles) and more technology couldn't make a similar solution. I know the Catalyst says it can't be forced (whatever that means) but the plan to have the Reapers build the device and talk a non-Indoctrinated organic into jumping in seems no different than what Shepard did.

Let's not try applying any sort of logic to Synthesis. It will just make you bang your head against a wall. There is a thematic reason for this, we need each other to make it happen blah blah blah. Logical reason? Don't bother.

[CronoDragoon]

Also, not related but it always made me curious since Leviathan. Since the DLC strongly seemed to suggest that the Catalyst was seeking for a method to obtain Synthesis how come it couldn't come up with the idea to make a giant source of energy to chuck an organic into. If the less advanced organics were some how able to design and develop the Crucible during the chaos of the cycles why the Reapers with almost infinitely more time on their hands (space tentacles) and more technology couldn't make a similar solution. I know the Catalyst says it can't be forced (whatever that means) but the plan to have the Reapers build the device and talk a non-Indoctrinated organic into jumping in seems no different than what Shepard did.

 

Since the availability of Synthesis is based on your EMS, I'd say it's more likely that he's not just talking about Shepard as "organics being ready" but rather the galaxy as a whole.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Since the availability of Synthesis is based on your EMS, I'd say it's more likely that he's not just talking about Shepard as "organics being ready" but rather the galaxy as a whole.

 

I thought Synthesis wasn't available in the lower EMS runs because the Crucible got damaged or was didn't have enough Iridium. Or, at least I hope so, because the idea that the Catalyst is judging the worthiness of organics based off of the war effort makes the ending even more random.

[CronoDragoon]

I thought Synthesis wasn't available in the lower EMS runs because the Crucible got damaged or was didn't have enough Iridium. Or, at least I hope so, because the idea that the Catalyst is judging the worthiness of organics based off of the war effort makes the ending even more random.

 

Right, and the Crucible gets damaged because you didn't have the forces to protect it, or alternatively, didn't put enough work into it (I don't remember his exact words).

 

At the very least, basing organics' readiness on the actions of the galaxy makes more sense than on Shepard personally, though Shepard still had to get there so it's probably a combination of both.

 

It's also possible that he's simply judging organics' readiness on their capability to overthrow the Reapers. This cycle was a step or two away from doing it on their own, and I'm sure he wants a say in the new solution rather than just getting destroyed.

[SwobyJ]

It's also possible that he's simply judging organics' readiness on their capability to overthrow the Reapers. This cycle was a step or two away from doing it on their own, and I'm sure he wants a say in the new solution rather than just getting destroyed.

 

I agree with this part.

[Uncle Jo]

Dat  old topic... It will never die. I was away for a while, what happened with the old design? 

[Ithurael]

Guys Guys Guys, with enough headcanon the ending makes sense!!

 

The catalyst couldn't open the citadel relay because of the prothean sabotage (the keepers could not receive that kind of signal to open the relay) that is made clear in the lore.

 

The catalyst also couldn't open the citadel arms during the battle of the citadel because...it...couldn't (even though the control ending show the arms closing and the citadel opens up once the crucible docks) so yeah...it can't open the arms because...it can't.

 

#dealwithit

[AlanC9]

Guys Guys Guys, with enough headcanon the ending makes sense!!

 

The catalyst couldn't open the citadel relay because of the prothean sabotage (the keepers could not receive that kind of signal to open the relay) that is made clear in the lore.

 

The catalyst also couldn't open the citadel arms during the battle of the citadel because...it...couldn't (even though the control ending show the arms closing and the citadel opens up once the crucible docks) so yeah...it can't open the arms because...it can't.

 

#dealwithit

 

Right. Instead of one thing not working on the Citadel because of sabotage, now we have two things on the Citadel not working because of sabotage.

[CronoDragoon]

The catalyst also couldn't open the citadel arms during the battle of the citadel because...it...couldn't (even though the control ending show the arms closing and the citadel opens up once the crucible docks) so yeah...it can't open the arms because...it can't.
 
#dealwithit

In order for the "Catalyst can't because of protheans and needs Sovereign" theory to work, though, we have to assume that vanguards didn't have a point prior to Sovereign. (was it Vigil that talked about there always being a vanguard in previous cycles? In which case I guess it's just more speculation that could turn out to be wrong. I'm uncomfortable asserting Vigil is wrong about stuff, though, since I think the writer intent was clearly for him to be an info dump)

[AlanC9]

Well, yeah, it's a retcon of a sort. It's not like Vigil's guesses were planned to be wrong.

I suppose it would be helpful to have different words to capture the distinction between changing established facts and changing non-established facts; the latter happens fairly often in fiction.

[ImaginaryMatter]

In order for the "Catalyst can't because of protheans and needs Sovereign" theory to work, though, we have to assume that vanguards didn't have a point prior to Sovereign. (was it Vigil that talked about there always being a vanguard in previous cycles? In which case I guess it's just more speculation that could turn out to be wrong. I'm uncomfortable asserting Vigil is wrong about stuff, though, since I think the writer intent was clearly for him to be an info dump)

Well, yeah, it's a retcon of a sort. It's not like Vigil's guesses were planned to be wrong.

I suppose it would be helpful to have different words to capture the distinction between changing established facts and changing non-established facts; the latter happens fairly often in fiction.

 

I feel like it's one of those things while not technically a retcon, has the same affect as one. For a bulk of the story it was always presumed Vigil was right given the amount of importance his scene is given. While he can easily be wrong, I think it would have been nice for the ending to either build off what Vigil said or have the Catalyst address the discrepancies; instead of taking explosives to the bridge between all the games and leaving players to pick up the demolished pieces by having the Catalyst flip the lore upside down without bothering to rectify it's existence with the past information about the Reapers.

 

One example of this confusion is that it leaves the exact nature of the Reapers a confusing mess (are they Indoctrinated, RC, AIs, VIs, etc?)

[ShadowLordXII]

Guys Guys Guys, with enough headcanon the ending makes sense!!

 

The catalyst couldn't open the citadel relay because of the prothean sabotage (the keepers could not receive that kind of signal to open the relay) that is made clear in the lore.

 

The catalyst also couldn't open the citadel arms during the battle of the citadel because...it...couldn't (even though the control ending show the arms closing and the citadel opens up once the crucible docks) so yeah...it can't open the arms because...it can't.

 

#dealwithit

 

Headcanon only works when the source material can stand on it's own for the most part or for something to cover for an honestly minor problem.

 

It's not exactly a great explanation for a blatant and major contradiction between the last 10 minutes of ME3 and the entire driving plot of ME1.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Headcanon only works when the source material can stand on it's own for the most part or for something to cover for an honestly minor problem.

 

It's not exactly a great explanation for a blatant and major contradiction between the last 10 minutes of ME3 and the entire driving plot of ME1.

 

"When you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Ergo, ME3 doesn't exist. There, solved it.

[Iakus]

Guys Guys Guys, with enough headcanon the ending makes sense!!

 

The catalyst couldn't open the citadel relay because of the prothean sabotage (the keepers could not receive that kind of signal to open the relay) that is made clear in the lore.

 

The catalyst also couldn't open the citadel arms during the battle of the citadel because...it...couldn't (even though the control ending show the arms closing and the citadel opens up once the crucible docks) so yeah...it can't open the arms because...it can't.

 

#dealwithit

 

If by "headcanon" you mean "powerful nonprescription pharmaceuticals" then you may be right 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Like I've said. The Intelligence never bothered to have itself connected to control the arms of the Citadel or the Mass Relay controls. Thus when its control signal to the keepers was altered, it was s*** out of luck.

 

Just remember, there is another solution. Synthesis. Jump into the green beam, and then we will have cake.

[Iakus]

The cake is a lie