981 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

 
Sovereign, on the other hand, either doesn't know or is lying when it states that "we have no beginning, we have no end."

or it was just being arrogant.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Crucible activated the elevator.

The Catalyst never deactivated the Crucible. That was presumably due to damage/non-use.

 

How did the Crucible activate the elevator? Was some random elevator built into the Citadel at the exact spot that Shepard is lying in, waiting to be activated by an eventual alien power source not built or designed by either the Leviathans or Reapers so that the creator of said Reaper and maintainer of the Citadel could tell you what the Crucible could do? That's not only an unqualified claim to say that it was the Crucible, but it's a big leap in logic to say that it did.

 

The Crucible deactivated pretty much right at the moment Shepard said he wasn't going to use the Crucible, right after the Catalyst pronounces "SO BE IT!" Unless that is massively fortunate timing on the Reapers part of damaging the Crucible (in which case, Shepard would have had no time to activate it anyway), or the non-use setting kicks in after a few minutes, while Shepard is still choosing what to do with the Crucible (in which case, Shepard would again have no time to activate it). So once more, your idea is a massive leap in logic, and an attempt to justify the existence of the Catalyst over the previously established entity of Sovereign and Harbinger. You're trying to justify poor writing. 

[The Bad One]

That's a guess you are making. Not a source.
Can you point me to a source where it states that the crucible controls the elevator?

 

So your source in that situation would be Mass Effect 3.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

^^^^^^^^ lol. Yes. Exactly.

 

 

That would have been the ultimate troll ending.

[SwobyJ]

That would have been the ultimate troll ending.

 

Would have been?

 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This doesn't follow. Breaking control over one device doesn't imply breaking control over all of them. A quadriplegic can still control his eyes.

It's also never established that the Catalyst controls that elevator. But that doesn't matter.

 

No, but the elevator is pretty convenient, and the Catalyst is expecting you (even when it's asking why you have come). I'm refuting the ideal that the Catalyst used the Keepers to activate the elevator (which is impossible considering the Protheans changed their settings, and for which he acknowledged). I'm taking what we see and making a claim that the Catalyst's existence retroactively puts the Reapers plot in ME1 and ME2 in jeopardy as far as logic is concerned. I'm blaming it on crappy writing. I'm saying the people responsible for this weren't doing their jobs.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

So your source in that situation would be Mass Effect 3.

 

He's asking for your source that supports your claim of the Crucible (which the Reapers nor the Leviathans knew about when building the Citadel) somehow activating a convenient elevator that takes a person to the Catalyst's domain, right in the position where the Crucible is activated from. 

[SwobyJ]

Take the elevator of light to ascend you to heaven.

[The Bad One]

The elevator is in a part of the Citadel which the Catalyst says no one has ever been to, which seems to imply that no one knew about it, which would include the designers of the Crucible (unless they had secret blueprints of the entire station).

 

No, it doesn't imply that.

 

He says you're the first organic to stand here. That means synthetics could have stood there, and that says nothing about whether or not the designers knew of the Catalyst's existence or chamber.

 

How did the Crucible activate the elevator? Was some random elevator built into the Citadel at the exact spot that Shepard is lying in, waiting to be activated by an eventual alien power source not built or designed by either the Leviathans or Reapers so that the creator of said Reaper and maintainer of the Citadel could tell you what the Crucible could do? That's not only an unqualified claim to say that it was the Crucible, but it's a big leap in logic to say that it did.

 

How did a device capable of altering the galaxy on an atomic scale activate a pressure sensitive elevator which brought you to the place it needed you to be to activate it? Even we could create a pressure sensitive elevator today, it's not exactly a "big leap in logic" to say the Crucible could do that, especially as it happens after the docking of the Crucible.

You also question the existence of the elevator, which would require you to forget about the existence of the Keepers. Chances are it's for them, made even more evident by the fact it has a console in front of it and the Keepers are around that area.
 

 

The Crucible deactivated pretty much right at the moment Shepard said he wasn't going to use the Crucible, right after the Catalyst pronounces "SO BE IT!" Unless that is massively fortunate timing on the Reapers part of damaging the Crucible (in which case, Shepard would have had no time to activate it anyway), or the non-use setting kicks in after a few minutes, while Shepard is still choosing what to do with the Crucible (in which case, Shepard would again have no time to activate it). So once more, your idea is a massive leap in logic, and an attempt to justify the existence of the Catalyst over the previously established entity of Sovereign and Harbinger. You're trying to justify poor writing.

 

Jacob and Miranda were asking me questions about who was the councilor. I went downstairs and came back 25 minutes later, turns out Shepard, Jacob and Miranda had all been staring at each other in complete silence for 25 minutes waiting for Shepard to answer. Later on I was in an elevator with Miranda as she told me about her sister, I skipped all the investigate dialogue options and the elevator weirdly reached the top fast, despite it taking longer when I went through all the dialogue options.

Either they really did sit there in complete, unblinking, silence for 25 minutes as they flew through space, and that elevator based its speed on how long the conversation in it was going on for, or the time it takes for dialogue to happen has no bearing on the actual time that takes place during the game. Time is linked to dialogue, not actual time.

Which would mean, despite looking like fortunate timing on damaging the Crucible, it's actually not. It's simply abiding by the consistent rules of the series, that time and events are linked to dialogue, not actual time.

[The Bad One]

He's asking for your source that supports your claim of the Crucible (which the Reapers nor the Leviathans knew about when building the Citadel) somehow activating a convenient elevator that takes a person to the Catalyst's domain, right in the position where the Crucible is activated from. 

See above.

[ImaginaryMatter]

No, it doesn't imply that.

 

He says you're the first organic to stand here. That means synthetics could have stood there, and that says nothing about whether or not the designers knew of the Catalyst's existence or chamber.

 

How else would they know about it?

 

Edit: Actually I suppose there's a lot of ways they could have known about it, like I guess they could have gotten a hold of blueprints somehow. But why was it never mentioned with the Crucible plans? You think that would be pretty pertinent information.

[The Bad One]

How else would they know about it?

 

Synthetics? Investigating the Keepers and finding out they have a control signal? Figuring out there's an AI controlling the Reapers and discovering where from? Being fed this information by the Leviathans?

There are many possibilities. Point is there's nothing to suggest the designers of the Crucible never knew about the elevator. An organic never being in the chamber doesn't mean the designers never knew of the Catalyst, its chamber, or how to get there.

[FlyingSquirrel]

or it was just being arrogant.

 

"We have no beginning" is a falsifiable statement, though, and one that is untrue of the Reapers - they began with the Catalyst turning against the Leviathans, harvesting them, and creating Harbinger. So even if Sovereign is just trying to boast or intimidate Shepard, either it's consciously lying or it honestly believes what it's saying.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Synthetics? Investigating the Keepers and finding out they have a control signal? Figuring out there's an AI controlling the Reapers and discovering where from? Being fed this information by the Leviathans?

There are many possibilities. Point is there's nothing to suggest the designers of the Crucible never knew about the elevator. An organic never being in the chamber doesn't mean the designers never knew of the Catalyst, its chamber, or how to get there.

 

Sure there is. The Crucible plans contain nothing about it. Did the creators just assume that whoever was able to build it would figure it out, assume the Reapers would leave a beam that would lead to it, did these plans just happen to have gotten conveniently lost over the years.

 

My point is when he says no Organic has ever stood there it seems like the point was that no one had ever been there before, that Shepard was indeed the first to get that far in that this was all very important. The Crucible plans make no mention of it and if the creators did know about all of this they surely would have included it, right?

[SwobyJ]

The Reapers transcend space and time.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

No, it doesn't imply that.

 

He says you're the first organic to stand here. That means synthetics could have stood there, and that says nothing about whether or not the designers knew of the Catalyst's existence or chamber.

 

 

How did a device capable of altering the galaxy on an atomic scale activate a pressure sensitive elevator which brought you to the place it needed you to be to activate it? Even we could create a pressure sensitive elevator today, it's not exactly a "big leap in logic" to say the Crucible could do that, especially as it happens after the docking of the Crucible.

You also question the existence of the elevator, which would require you to forget about the existence of the Keepers. Chances are it's for them, made even more evident by the fact it has a console in front of it and the Keepers are around that area.
 

 

Jacob and Miranda were asking me questions about who was the councilor. I went downstairs and came back 25 minutes later, turns out Shepard, Jacob and Miranda had all been staring at each other in complete silence for 25 minutes waiting for Shepard to answer. Later on I was in an elevator with Miranda as she told me about her sister, I skipped all the investigate dialogue options and the elevator weirdly reached the top fast, despite it taking longer when I went through all the dialogue options.

Either they really did sit there in complete, unblinking, silence for 25 minutes as they flew through space, and that elevator based its speed on how long the conversation in it was going on for, or the time it takes for dialogue to happen has no bearing on the actual time that takes place during the game. Time is linked to dialogue, not actual time.

Which would mean, despite looking like fortunate timing on damaging the Crucible, it's actually not. It's simply abiding by the consistent rules of the series, that time and events are linked to dialogue, not actual time.

 

Actually, it does imply that. You're making an appeal to clarification here: You're saying that since the Catalyst doesn't use a specific type of language or word choice, it leaves open the possibility of your alternative having happened, no matter how incredulous or probable. You're stretching logic to fit your point, and, as I'll highlight below, you're misinterpreting or twisting our statements to justify your conclusion.

 

I'm not saying that the Crucible can't activate a pressure sensitive elevator (and yes we do have pressure sensitive technology today. That point is irrelevant however). I'm asking why the Crucible is activating a pressure sensitive elevator. That's not its intended purpose. And I'm asking why there is a pressure sensitive elevator on the Citadel that can only be activated by the Crucible. As I said, the elevator is a part of the Citadel. It's in an inaccessible part of the Citadel. The Citadel came before the Crucible. The Citadel might even predate the Reapers and the cycle. With all of that, why would the Catalyst, Reapers, Leviathans, or whoever built a pressure sensitive elevator in an inaccessible part of the Citadel that can only be activated by a device that they have no real knowledge of? 

 

Do you speak English? I'm thinking that due to your grammar and interpretation of my statement that it's not your native language. I'm not questioning the existence of the elevator. I'm not questioning the existence of the Keepers. I'm questioning how you're connecting them. I'm asking how you're connecting the Keepers, the elevator, and the Crucible. It might well be made for the Keepers, but why can it only be activated by the Crucible as you state? That makes no sense to build an elevator for the Keepers that can only be activated by an external alien power source (and one that the creators of said elevator and Keepers can possibly know about). This is the logic you are using: It's not.

 

That's gameplay/cutscene inconsistency. The next part however isn't. The cutscene with the Catalyst and the Crucible deactivation is happening in real time in the game. There isn't a wait for you to decide an option, or to blow through cutscenes. To be frank, in that instance, the dialogue time is linked to actual time. The Catalyst is deactivating the Crucible because you have chosen not to utilize it. You can physically wait to choose to use the Crucible and have a prompt telling you that you took too long. This is not the case by refusing. If it was due to damage, then simply talking to the Catalyst at all would delay you to a point where it is impossible to activate the Crucible.

[CrutchCricket]

It's not even a choice- lose the holokid. It embodies just about everything wrong with ME3.

 

You can reconcile the Dark relay contradiction by simply claiming the holokid was hibernating until the Crucible docked (although it still wouldn't explain why Sovereign wasn't able to contact it directly and be like "help me out bro"). But the delusion is strong with those who deny any contradictions at all.

 

It's the shoddiest of writing, from a team that even on their best days twist the story to go one way when their own details point the other way entirely. There's no escaping this fact.

[The Bad One]

Sure there is. The Crucible plans contain nothing about it. Did the creators just assume that whoever was able to build it would figure it out, assume the Reapers would leave a beam that would lead to it, did these plans just happen to have gotten conveniently lost over the years.

 

My point is when he says no Organic has ever stood there it seems like the point was that no one had ever been there before, that Shepard was indeed the first to get that far in that this was all very important. The Crucible plans make no mention of it and if the creators did know about all of this they surely would have included it, right?

 

Where are you gettting that the Crucible plans make no mention of it. It could have said "The Crucible docks, the devices are activated, and the catalyst activates the Crucible". That's just an example, but it's general speculation there. You could even speculate that the mention of the elevator was lost, or not even included (as the creator wouldn't have assumed there'd be a fight to the death over it, meaning they assumed the elevator would be obvious and therefore overlooked when creating the plans).

Point is, there's nothing to suggest the designers of the Crucible never knew about the elevator.

 

Actually, it does imply that. You're making an appeal to clarification here: You're saying that since the Catalyst doesn't use a specific type of language or word choice, it leaves open the possibility of your alternative having happened, no matter how incredulous or probable. You're stretching logic to fit your point, and, as I'll highlight below, you're misinterpreting or twisting our statements to justify your conclusion.

 

What I'm saying is if an answer doesn't contradict events in the game, and another does, it's clear to see what one is correct. You can believe anything you want about anything, but if it causes contradictions and plot holes, and there's another explanation that doesn't, you'll have no legs to stand on if you try to dismiss it.

 

I'm not saying that the Crucible can't activate a pressure sensitive elevator (and yes we do have pressure sensitive technology today. That point is irrelevant however). I'm asking why the Crucible is activating a pressure sensitive elevator. That's not its intended purpose. And I'm asking why there is a pressure sensitive elevator on the Citadel that can only be activated by the Crucible. As I said, the elevator is a part of the Citadel. It's in an inaccessible part of the Citadel. The Citadel came before the Crucible. The Citadel might even predate the Reapers and the cycle. With all of that, why would the Catalyst, Reapers, Leviathans, or whoever built a pressure sensitive elevator in an inaccessible part of the Citadel that can only be activated by a device that they have no real knowledge of? 

 

Do you speak English? I'm thinking that due to your grammar and interpretation of my statement that it's not your native language. I'm not questioning the existence of the elevator. I'm not questioning the existence of the Keepers. I'm questioning how you're connecting them. I'm asking how you're connecting the Keepers, the elevator, and the Crucible. It might well be made for the Keepers, but why can it only be activated by the Crucible as you state? That makes no sense to build an elevator for the Keepers that can only be activated by an external alien power source (and one that the creators of said elevator and Keepers can possibly know about). This is the logic you are using: It's not.

 

Or, like I said in the post you quoted, the elevator was created for the Keepers.

You're the one saying that it doesn't make sense for the creators of the elevator to create it for something they couldn't possibly know about (the Crucible), and I'm saying that's because they never. That wouldn't make any sense. Chances are it was created for the Keepers, and the Crucible was designed to take control of it.

Even when you tried to say that it makes no sense for it to only be activated for the Crucible, you're the only one saying that. I said, in the post you quoted, that it's for the Keepers, made even more evident by the console in front of it (aka the console the Keepers would use to activate it).

Your logic was backwards. You're attempting to figure out why the creators of the Citadel would create an elevator for something they couldn't possibly know about, when that doesn't make any sense. Chances are the creators of the elevator made it for things they did know about, which was the Keepers. It was the Crucible that was designed to take control of it, not the other way around.

 

That's gameplay/cutscene inconsistency. The next part however isn't. The cutscene with the Catalyst and the Crucible deactivation is happening in real time in the game. There isn't a wait for you to decide an option, or to blow through cutscenes. To be frank, in that instance, the dialogue time is linked to actual time. The Catalyst is deactivating the Crucible because you have chosen not to utilize it. You can physically wait to choose to use the Crucible and have a prompt telling you that you took too long. This is not the case by refusing. If it was due to damage, then simply talking to the Catalyst at all would delay you to a point where it is impossible to activate the Crucible.

 

Nonsense. You can't just dismiss something that happens in the game, like the elevator conversation between Shepard and Miranda, as being a gameplay/cutscene inconsistency, yet not apply it to this situation.

You can wait during the conversation with the Catalyst, staring in unblinking silence, and the Crucible wont be destroyed. You can pick all the dialogue options and the Crucible wont be destroyed until a set amount of time after you stop speaking, despite that time being less than the time you spent staring at him. You can skip all the dialogue options and go to making a choice as quickly as possible, but if you don't choose for a set amount of time the Crucible will be destroyed, despite that time being less than the time you spent speaking to the Catalyst.

That alone shows that time is linked to events and dialogue, and not actual time, even in this situation. You could dismiss it if it happened to be inconsistent with the rest of the series, but it's not. Saying that the Crucible couldn't have taken damage due to the time that took place means you'll have to ignore that rule of the series.

The Catalyst never turned off the Crucible, it was deactivated due to damage/non-use. You can't use "real time" to counter that, as time and events are linked to dialogue, not real time.

[CrutchCricket]

The Catalyst never turned off the Crucible, it was deactivated due to damage/non-use. You can't use "real time" to counter that, as time and events are linked to dialogue, not real time.

Shoot the holokid in the face. No "dialogue time" to save you there.

Your argument is invalid.

[SwobyJ]

Ughhhh it's not even real. This is like arguing over pink elephants in Winnie The Pooh's dreams not conforming to proper ideas of elephants. I'm done.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Shoot the holokid in the face. No "dialogue time" to save you there.

Your argument is invalid.

 

His whole argument that I suspect is trying to justify crappy writing is invalid. I'm not saying his opinion is, but his argument isn't strong at all.

[The Bad One]

Shoot the holokid in the face. No "dialogue time" to save you there.

Your argument is invalid.

 

Actually no, that just shows even more that time is linked to dialogue and events.

It's been like this, consistently, throughout the series.
 

His whole argument that I suspect is trying to justify crappy writing is invalid. I'm not saying his opinion is, but his argument isn't strong at all.

 

Then counter it.

The justifications, as you put it, that I'm giving you aren't causing any contradictions with the game. In fact all it's doing is solving the problems that arise when people assume it was the Catalyst dong these things.

If one interpretation causes plot holes, and one doesn't, chances are it's not the game that's in the wrong, chances are it's the interpretation.

[CronoDragoon]

The best hypothesis to me still sounds like asserting the Catalyst controls the elevator and can control the Citadel, but chooses not to so as not to expose himself. Doesn't this seem like the most reasonable assimilation of all the facts? Why would we even need to jump through hoops about the Crucible activating the elevator, and the Catalyst not being able to control a station he built, when we can just say that and be done with it.

 

Unless there's something that contradicts that line of thinking, which I haven't seen in this thread at least.

[CrutchCricket]

Ughhhh it's not even real. This is like arguing over pink elephants in Winnie The Pooh's dreams not conforming to proper ideas of elephants. I'm done.

 

doesthisproveIT?

 

Actually no, that just shows even more that time is linked to dialogue and events.

It's been like this, consistently, throughout the series.

 

Uh-huh. Well I'll leave you to that then. Now that I know I'm wasting my time.

[SwobyJ]

Not talking about IT.