981 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

It is odd, I don't even know why I'm defending it as I don't really believe it either. Originally I just posted it as a single hypothetical that said the Catalyst could control parts of the Citadel but somehow be limited. It's one among others including that the Prothean sabotage was much more intricate than what Vigil told us (it was neither at the Citadel nor was does it's description of the Prothean cycle match up too strongly with Javik's retelling of events). I'm sure there's others. I still contend that there is evidence to support that the Catalyst is the one doing some of this stuff. It does also have a method of projecting itself

 

To be honest I don't really care much about some speculative reason for the plotholes. The writers have shown often throughout the entire series that consistency and implications aren't their top priorities. The most likely explanation is that the writers didn't think much about the past games or things like the Codex when they wrote the ending and I don't want to spend a great deal of time second guessing the writers at every other turn. Maybe there is a reasonable explanation for all of this that is firmly supported by the lore, and not one that just happens to explain the holes without any outright contradictions, but it doesn't make the ending any better if a great number of people have to delve into the depths of the internet to find an answer.

 

The codex can be contradicted. It is an unreliable narrator at points. Do NOT always use the Codex as fully established lore.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No its not...Vigil is misinformed.

 

ME3 has vendetta be wrong, why can't Vigil?

 

And Vigil was proven wrong in ME2 when he says that the Reapers destroyed all traces of their existence.....they didn't.

 

They had wiped away all traces of their existence until we found Object Rho, the derelict reaper, etc., but finding those things had odds against finding them greater than hitting Powerball several times in a row. Do you know how many stars there are in the Milky Way? Do you know how many planets there are in the Milky Way? Do you know how small 2 km is in comparison to something as large as the Milky Way? Do you know how small something about the size of a house is in comparison to the Milky Way? Be reasonable. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No, you cannot prove a plot hole based off of assumptions, without proof. You cannot prove that the Catalyst has full control of the Citadel.

 

Just because you think its a plot hole doesn't mean it is.

 

 

I never said the Catalyst had full control. The Catalyst didn't exist until ME3 as a concept.

 

Just because you think it isn't doesn't mean it's not.

[KaiserShep]

Object Rho is such a baffling device. I first thought maybe it could be a beacon for the reapers to follow to the Alpha Relay and that the countdown is based on some kind of proximity signal it gives off, but then that doesn't make sense since such a thing could simply be built into the relay itself. Damn Arrival DLC.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The codex can be contradicted. It is an unreliable narrator at points. Do NOT always use the Codex as fully established lore.

 

The exact events I was thinking of when writing this were the limitations and specifics of the technology in the game. Things that seem to go away when the plot calls for it with no explanation given for the particular exception.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Object Rho is such a baffling device. I first thought maybe it could be a beacon for the reapers to follow to the Alpha Relay and that the countdown is based on some kind of proximity signal it gives off, but then that doesn't make sense since such a thing could simply be built into the relay itself. Damn Arrival DLC.

 

Arrival... the beginning of the end of ME.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The codex can be contradicted. It is an unreliable narrator at points. Do NOT always use the Codex as fully established lore.

 

The codex is supposed to be the established lore of the story. If the story contradicts the codex it is breaking lore. At those points it breaks suspension of disbelief because it breaks the laws of the MEU. Those things are called ass pulls and plot holes. Mass Effect is full of them. Deal with it.

[KaiserShep]

I have to agree about the codex thing. If something is going to clash with a codex entry, it's probably best that it address an assumption than an established fact, like how it's simply assumed that the protheans built the relays and citadel before we learn that they actually derive from the reapers.

[txgoldrush]

The codex is supposed to be the established lore of the story. If the story contradicts the codex it is breaking lore. At those points it breaks suspension of disbelief because it breaks the laws of the MEU. Those things are called ass pulls and plot holes. Mass Effect is full of them. Deal with it.

 

 

For Mass Relays (ME1)

 

"Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives."

 

This argument is over.

 

Also the Codex is written by character's point of view, what the galaxy knows. It CAN be contradicted.

[Kel Riever]

No its not...Vigil is misinformed.

 

ME3 has vendetta be wrong, why can't Vigil?

 

And Vigil was proven wrong in ME2 when he says that the Reapers destroyed all traces of their existence.....they didn't.

 

Why not admit that ME3 came before ME1?

 

Wait...yeah that is just stupid.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

For Mass Relays (ME1)

 

"Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between locations separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives."

 

This argument is over.

 

Also the Codex is written by character's point of view, what the galaxy knows. It CAN be contradicted.

 

There are certain things that are called plot twists that come with adequate foreshadowing. Those things can contradict the codex. When they do not come with adequate foreshadowing like... introducing a brand new character in the last five minutes of the story for the purpose of doing an information dump that contradicts everything we know about things for the purpose of god knows what, it is an ass pull because they didn't know how to end the story without something like this:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Ow8fcT21fRo

[KaiserShep]

It'd be a pretty crappy spoiler if the codex entry in ME1 said outright that the reapers built the Citadel and relays.

 

Sovereign: We forged the mass relays and the Citadel.

 

Shepard: And? I already knew that.

 

Sovereign: ....This exchange is over.

[The Bad One]

There are certain things that are called plot twists that come with adequate foreshadowing. Those things can contradict the codex. When they do not come with adequate foreshadowing like... introducing a brand new character in the last five minutes of the story for the purpose of doing an information dump that contradicts everything we know about things for the purpose of god knows what, it is an ass pull because they didn't know how to end the story without something like this.

 

You just described Vigil.

I guess he doesn't arrive in the last 5 minutes, he just instead arrives out of nowhere right before the end and goes "Here's everything you need to know and here's the thing you'll need to solve your problem. Without this you're screwed kthnxbye".

[TurianRebel212]

Mac Walters.... Nuff Said. Drew K. was WAAAAYYYY better. And it shows in ME3. 

 

The catalyst is a terrible deus ex machina "high level" attempt at trans-humanism thematic elements. It's just really, really, really bad. And really, really executed at an amateur level. William Gibson can write trans-humanism themes well. Ray Kurzweil can write it well. Charles Stross can write it well. 

 

 

Mac Walters.... Not so much. Go back to creative writing class Mac, you need it, lol. 

 

Catalyst sucks. 

 

Sovereign owns, Sovereing had swagger and confidence. And he also had Saren.... Plus 10 rep points for him. 

[txgoldrush]

There are certain things that are called plot twists that come with adequate foreshadowing. Those things can contradict the codex. When they do not come with adequate foreshadowing like... introducing a brand new character in the last five minutes of the story for the purpose of doing an information dump that contradicts everything we know about things for the purpose of god knows what, it is an ass pull because they didn't know how to end the story without something like this:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Ow8fcT21fRo

 

Wow, way too change the goal.

 

And the Catalyst was foreshadowed on Thessia....nevermind Leviathan. Hell, if you played Leviathan first, the exchange on Thessia becomes a little weird. That's because there was foreshadowing also there for a "master". Nevermind the motives of the Reapers were well foreshadowed on Rannoch.

[txgoldrush]

You just described Vigil.

I guess he doesn't arrive in the last 5 minutes, he just instead arrives out of nowhere right before the end and goes "Here's everything you need to know and here's the thing you'll need to solve your problem. Without this you're screwed kthnxbye".

 

Vigil basically is ME1's deus ex machina.

[txgoldrush]

Mac Walters.... Nuff Said. Drew K. was WAAAAYYYY better. And it shows in ME3. 

 

The catalyst is a terrible deus ex machina "high level" attempt at trans-humanism thematic elements. It's just really, really, really bad. And really, really executed at an amateur level. William Gibson can write trans-humanism themes well. Ray Kurzweil can write it well. Charles Stross can write it well. 

 

 

Mac Walters.... Not so much. Go back to creative writing class Mac, you need it, lol. 

 

Catalyst sucks. 

 

Sovereign owns, Sovereing had swagger and confidence. And he also had Saren.... Plus 10 rep points for him. 

 

Wrong

 

The Catalyst is far from a deus ex machina, in fact he is quite the opposite. The Catalyst cannot solve anything.

 

TVtropes (Deus Ex Machina):

 

Played with, but ultimately averted, in Mass Effect 3 and its controversial ending:

• The Catalyst, revealed in the very end to be an AI that controls the Reapers, not just the final component to fire the Crucible, suddenly lifts Shepard up to help end the cycle when the Crucible fails to fire after connecting to the Citadel. This is similar in the way the classical Greeks used the trope. The aversion comes in when he reveals that it was the Crucible that provided the solutions and he could not bring these solutions about, requiring Shepard to solve the problem by destroying or controlling the Reapers, or merging organic and synthetic life.
• Perhaps inverted if synthesis is chosen....as Shepard could be the "Deus Ex Machina" for the Catalyst, as that ending solves the Catalyst's problem as well, of finding an ideal solution to the conflicts between organic and synthetic life. This can be further explained in the Leviathan DLC when it was suggested that the Intelligence (The Catalyst) build the mass relays to control evolution to find a superior solution to his cycle. So, Shepard, viewed by the Reapers all this time as a threat, turns out suddenly to be the solution to the problem they were created for after Shepard (taking into account that he is also an organic/synthetic hybrid) connects the Crucible to the Citadel, with the Catalyst seeing Shepard as proof that organics are ready for synthesis and the Crucible the means to bring it about.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Leviathan was written after ME3, Tex. It's sole purpose is to justify the existence of the glowboy. 

 

 

The cycle cannot be broken. This exchange is over.

[TurianRebel212]

Synthesis is "best" and most pinnacle ending-BioWare said so. Therefore it is a deus ex machina as you just stated and proved in your post. 

 

The ending of Mass Effect is a deus ex machina, guess I should clarify that. The Catalyst alone is not a deus ex machina. The ending in it's entirety and with the "best" ending (synthesis) is the very definition of of deus ex machina. 

 

 

The plot device to move this into place was a Maccguffin- the "Crucible". 

 

 

Mac Walters can't write. His latest comic books are even more evident of that. 

 

 

This is the guy that is the "creative director" for Mass Effect 4. 

 

 

You have been warned. 

[txgoldrush]

Leviathan was written after ME3, Tex. It's sole purpose is to justify the existence of the glowboy. 

 

 

The cycle cannot be broken. This exchange is over.

 

But the foreshadowing on Thessia existed before Leviathan.

[txgoldrush]

Synthesis is "best" and most pinnacle ending-BioWare said so. Therefore it is a deus ex machina as you just stated and proved in your post. 

 

The ending of Mass Effect is a deus ex machina, guess I should clarify that. The Catalyst alone is not a deus ex machina. The ending in it's entirety and with the "best" ending (synthesis) is the very definition of of deus ex machina. 

 

 

The plot device to move this into place was a Maccguffin- the "Crucible". 

 

 

Mac Walters can't write. His latest comic books are even more evident of that. 

 

 

This is the guy that is the "creative director" for Mass Effect 4. 

 

 

You have been warned. 

First....deus ex machina is not always bad. Look at Earthbound's finale.

 

Second, the ending is not deus ex machina because the protagonist solves the problem with established plot devices. However, if you take the antagonist's POV, synthesis would be his "deus ex machina", a sudden solution to his problem.

 

And no, there is NOT a best ending.

[TurianRebel212]

Guess you missed how the Crucible is a maccguffin. The ending of ME3 breaks most established lore in the series... I mean, yeah this is like obvious. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Synthesis is "best" and most pinnacle ending-BioWare said so. Therefore it is a deus ex machina as you just stated and proved in your post. 

 

The ending of Mass Effect is a deus ex machina, guess I should clarify that. The Catalyst alone is not a deus ex machina. The ending in it's entirety and with the "best" ending (synthesis) is the very definition of of deus ex machina. 

 

 

The plot device to move this into place was a Maccguffin- the "Crucible". 

 

 

Mac Walters can't write. His latest comic books are even more evident of that. 

 

 

This is the guy that is the "creative director" for Mass Effect 4. 

 

 

You have been warned. 

 

Creative Director is not a writer. It is more of a coordinator.

[TurianRebel212]

Guess you missed how the Crucible is a maccguffin. The ending of ME3 breaks most established lore in the series... I mean, yeah this is like obvious. 

 

 

Ha, keep telling yourself that. This series is now Mac's. 

 

The series will evolve along the paths he desires.... 

 

 

Prepare yourselves.... For it's arrival. 

[txgoldrush]

Guess you missed how the Crucible is a maccguffin. The ending of ME3 breaks most established lore in the series... I mean, yeah this is like obvious. 

And Vigil's data file wasn't? the Conduit wasn't? the Reaper IFF wasn't?

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mass Effect's universe is riddled with MacGuffins.