981 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Second, the ending is not deus ex machina because the protagonist solves the problem with established plot devices.

Eh. You can make an argument for it.

At the most basic, the Catalyst is almost exactly a god from the machine(s). It seems only appropriate to apply the term literally.

But you can approach it in other ways, too. Although the Crucible and the theme of synthetic/organic conflict are devices that were introduced long before the endgame, the Catalyst itself was not, and the way in which the Crucible is eventually used has very minimal foreshadowing through the rest of the game (if any). Synthesis as a concept, for example, is introduced in the last five minutes of the game.

I'm something of a student of the classics, and I don't like it when Internet commentators who probably have never even heard of Euripides or Horatius apply "deus ex machina" to situations that don't merit the label at all. As much as I'd like to push back against the term's usage in general, there's enough of an argument for its use in this specific instance for me to be okay with it.

[TurianRebel212]

And Vigil's data file wasn't? the Conduit wasn't? the Reaper IFF wasn't?

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mass Effect's universe is riddled with MacGuffins.

 

 

Yeah maybe, but the execution of the above plot devices was way, way better than Crucible and Deus Ex Machina Ending of ME3. 

 

Mass Effect 3's ending is amateur and lamented by most core fans of the series, this is my experience anyway's. Your's might be different. 

 

To each their own. 

[txgoldrush]

Eh. You can make an argument for it.

At the most basic, the Catalyst is almost exactly a god from the machine(s). It seems only appropriate to apply the term literally.

But you can approach it in other ways, too. Although the Crucible and the theme of synthetic/organic conflict are devices that were introduced long before the endgame, the Catalyst itself was not, and the way in which the Crucible is eventually used has very minimal foreshadowing through the rest of the game (if any). Synthesis as a concept, for example, is introduced in the last five minutes of the game.

I'm something of a student of the classics, and I don't like it when Internet commentators who probably have never even heard of Euripides or Horatius apply "deus ex machina" to situations that don't merit the label at all. As much as I'd like to push back against the term's usage in general, there's enough of an argument for its use in this specific instance for me to be okay with it.

 Wrong

 

The Crucible has foreshadowing all through the game, but two key moments are Liara wondering if it would backfire and the conversation between Anderson, Shep, and Hackett telling more about the Crucible (and foreshadowing that its not a Prothean device and that it was just an energy generator). The last conversation with Vendetta actually explains pretty well how the Crucible is used.

 

The Catalyst is actually foreshadowed on Thessia when Vendetta suggests that there may be a master to Reaper cycles. Shepard even asks "Who is the master?"

 

Also, Saren mentions the merge of synthetics and organics would result in the strengths of both and the weaknesses of neither.

 

Also TVTropes refer to literal deus ex machinas, which are character types (not plot devices), as "deus est machina". Just because a literal god ffrom the machine is used does NOT mean the plot device is used. And really ME3 uses the literal deus ex machina character to outright AVERT the plot device.

[txgoldrush]

Yeah maybe, but the execution of the above plot devices was way, way better than Crucible and Deus Ex Machina Ending of ME3. 

 

Mass Effect 3's ending is amateur and lamented by most core fans of the series, this is my experience anyway's. Your's might be different. 

 

To each their own. 

and yet silly Bioware fans just love DAO's Dark ritual.....a very clear deus ex machina to save everyone in the game.

 

I put no real stock in Bioware's fanbase. They have shown to really  be not that smart.

[AlexMBrennan]

and yet silly Bioware fans just love DAO's Dark ritual.....a very clear deus ex machina to save everyone in the game.

I put no real stock in Bioware's fanbase. They have shown to really be not that smart.

Let me clear that up for you:
Magic in a fantasy game where magic is ubiquitous = OK
Magic in sci-if game where no free form magic powers exist (e.g. Organic energy bullshit) = bad

[txgoldrush]

Let me clear that up for you:
Magic in a fantasy game where magic is ubiquitous = OK
Magic in sci-if game where no free form magic powers exist (e.g. Organic energy bullshit) = bad

So, lets be hypocrites.....yeah

 

And at least The Catalyst handwaves it in better, implying that there is not enough time to explain it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Catalyst is perfection. The Mass Effect plot is the best plot ever written in the history of the human race. It is perfect. There are no plot holes in it. There are no ass pulls. Nothing was done improperly in it, ever. It is the perfect story.  txgoldrush has made me see the light! Hallelujah!!! Praise Harbinger!!! 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

As a general rule, due to the editing that often occurs on TV Tropes, I tend not to use it as proof in any way. At all. Since you know, you can very easily go in there and change an entry on the examples list to put down whatever the hell you want to put down. David was famous for doing that. For all I know, it's Tx just writing his opinion down there and coming here and using it as proof.

[ImaginaryMatter]

and yet silly Bioware fans just love DAO's Dark ritual.....a very clear deus ex machina to save everyone in the game.

 

I put no real stock in Bioware's fanbase. They have shown to really  be not that smart.

 

Oh come on, silly is David's word, we don't need more condescending people on this board.

 

Plus, if you want to declare that other people aren't that smart (without you coming off as being condescending against those who disagree with you), maybe you should stop selectively quoting TV Tropes.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Oh come on, silly is David's word, we don't need more condescending people on this board.

 

Plus, if you want to declare that other people aren't that smart (without you coming off as being condescending against those who disagree with you), maybe you should stop selectively quoting TV Tropes.

 

It's Txgoldrush. He's known for being a lot like David. His catchphrase is "You don't get it." 

 

He's one of the over the top pro-enders who thinks he has all the answers due to the same thing that David and Robosexual have: Special Snowflake Syndrome. Not to make any real insults here, but they all grossly inflate the importance of their opinion and view because they all exaggerate their own intelligence at best, and grossly over-estimate it at worst.

 

TBO is actually Robosexual. He too was one of the more... disturbing pro-enders. I'm not making an argument against pro-enders here, though I'll admit that, at least on here, a large majority of them have been very antagonistic and insufferable (and I'm sure they'll say the same).

[txgoldrush]

Oh come on, silly is David's word, we don't need more condescending people on this board.

 

Plus, if you want to declare that other people aren't that smart (without you coming off as being condescending against those who disagree with you), maybe you should stop selectively quoting TV Tropes.

 

because really, the fanbase does not pay attention to the story....they criticize because they did not get what they want, far more than actual problems with the story. They do not pay attention to the story, for things that not only foreshadow what happens in the ending, but things that thematically set up the ending. They criticize on how ME3 isn't what they want it to be, instead of criticizing what ME3 actually is. The fact is that the ending had a lot of foreshadowing, both structurally and thematically.

 

And overall, Bioware's fan base is not that smart. And that's what is going to hurt Bioware. Instead of Bioware being free to make the stories they want to make, and actually challenge themselves and their fanbase (like what CD Projeckt does), they are going to become an entitlement program, a fan service company, and then dumb down their games or going back to the same old formula, unless they keep fans at a distance.

[Farangbaa]

because really, the fanbase does not pay attention to the story....they criticize because they did not get what they want, far more than actual problems with the story. They do not pay attention to the story, for things that not only foreshadow what happens in the ending, but things that thematically set up the ending. They criticize on how ME3 isn't what they want it to be, instead of criticizing what ME3 actually is. The fact is that the ending had a lot of foreshadowing, both structurally and thematically.

 

And overall, Bioware's fan base is not that smart. And that's what is going to hurt Bioware. Instead of Bioware being free to make the stories they want to make, and actually challenge themselves and their fanbase (like what CD Projeckt does), they are going to become an entitlement program, a fan service company, and then dumb down their games or going back to the same old formula, unless they keep fans at a distance.

 

You're like.. an inverted version of a staunch IT'er with a David-complex

 

the BSN: a gift that never stops giving

[txgoldrush]

It's Txgoldrush. He's known for being a lot like David. His catchphrase is "You don't get it." 

 

He's one of the over the top pro-enders who thinks he has all the answers due to the same thing that David and Robosexual have: Special Snowflake Syndrome. Not to make any real insults here, but they all grossly inflate the importance of their opinion and view because they all exaggerate their own intelligence at best, and grossly over-estimate it at worst.

 

TBO is actually Robosexual. He too was one of the more... disturbing pro-enders. I'm not making an argument against pro-enders here, though I'll admit that, at least on here, a large majority of them have been very antagonistic and insufferable (and I'm sure they'll say the same).

Because really really don't get it. That's the problem. The game is telling you all throughout what it is, and you either completely ignored it or you miss it. Nevermind the numerous topics here overthinking the ending to make it about something its not. Are there problems with the ME series? Yes. But the extended cut endings are not one of them. The game addresses almost everything about the endings well before it hits.

 

And ever thought that we are antagonistic because anti enders have thrown fits and made a spectacle of themselves? And anti enders don't inflate their opinion? I wouldn't call the kettle black.

 

What the Sopranos ending taught me is that people that actually liked the ending, actually got the ending. The people they did not like it, the rabble who wanted the ending changed (and wanted "closure"), did not. There was clear signs all throughout the final season of what the ending is, and it was thematically set up. And if you got it, it was "closure".

[txgoldrush]

You're like.. an inverted version of a staunch IT'er with a David-complex

 

the BSN: a gift that never stops giving

 

and what are you? Another anti ender who wants Bioware to dumb down its stories?

[txgoldrush]

The Catalyst is perfection. The Mass Effect plot is the best plot ever written in the history of the human race. It is perfect. There are no plot holes in it. There are no ass pulls. Nothing was done improperly in it, ever. It is the perfect story.  txgoldrush has made me see the light! Hallelujah!!! Praise Harbinger!!! 

 You really do not know what a plot hole and an ass pull is.

 

The series isn't perfect, like any other story, but you are making fallacious criticisms off of problems that simply don't exist. You change your argument the times you are proven wrong.

 

Just because a character that gives you info is contradicted later doesn't make it a plot hole. And the codex has been proven in this series to be fallible. The codex is a product of the narrative, it isn't THE narrative. Plot holes are there when plot points contradict plot points from the story being told. That is why the gates exploding in high EMS endings were changed, because it was potentially a plot hole because of PLOT ACTION (it destroying a system) was shown earlier in the series

[Farangbaa]

and what are you? Another anti ender who wants Bioware to dumb down its stories?

 

Absolutely not. You've picked the wrong person to accuse of that, lol. You're talking to pretty much the only person here that ended ME3 with a smile on his face.

 

But you are just like the IT guys, You've "payed attention", where others apparantly haven't, and you've "pieced together the clues", where others apparantly haven't. And you feel you're awesome because of it, and everyone else is stupid for not being like you.

[txgoldrush]

Absolutely not. You've picked the wrong person to accuse of that, lol. You're talking to pretty much the only person here that ended ME3 with a smile on his face.

 

But you are just like the IT guys, You've "payed attention", where others apparantly haven't, and you've "pieced together the clues", where others apparantly haven't. And you feel you're awesome because of it, and everyone else is stupid for not being like you.

No, its because they refuse to pay attention and piece together the clues. Then they say the clues just aren't there.

 

that's why I am dropping a bomb on them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Absolutely not. You've picked the wrong person to accuse of that, lol. You're talking to pretty much the only person here that ended ME3 with a smile on his face.

To double the numbers, I have to say I was smiling when I beat ME3.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

No, its because they refuse to pay attention and piece together the clues. Then they say the clues just aren't there.

 

that's why I am dropping a bomb on them.

 

There's nothing that's going to convince you otherwise. You're set to believe what you want to believe. It's always somebody else's fault. It's why I see what you say and just say 'whatever' and move on. You're a broken record. Right down to predicting what you're going to say. Because you can't allow anyone to criticize BW for what they did 'right'. Honestly, if I'm wrong in my interpretation of BW's works and my attitude towards them after their behavior, I don't want to be right.  I interpreted the ending exactly the same way you did. And I was repulsed by it. 

 

And if I still 'don't get it', then I, along with the masses of others that didn't get it, am not at fault. That's the game's fault and BW's fault for not being clear enough on their message. You can't blame the masses for poor communication on the part of the giver.

[txgoldrush]

There's nothing that's going to convince you otherwise. You're set to believe what you want to believe. It's always somebody else's fault. It's why I see what you say and just say 'whatever' and move on. You're a broken record. Right down to predicting what you're going to say. Because you can't allow anyone to criticize BW for what they did 'right'. Honestly, if I'm wrong in my interpretation of BW's works and my attitude towards them after their behavior, I don't want to be right.  I interpreted the ending exactly the same way you did. And I was repulsed by it. 

 

And if I still 'don't get it', then I, along with the masses of others that didn't get it, am not at fault. That's the game's fault and BW's fault for not being clear enough on their message. You can't blame the masses for poor communication on the part of the giver.

No, its your fault, they were quite clear on their message. In fact, they beat you over the head with it almost to a fault.

 

I think we have a problem where the fans simply wanted a happy ending if they do everything right, and they didn't get it. They wanted their vision, they didn't get it, and they ignored all the clues along the way.

[Farangbaa]

No, its because they refuse to pay attention and piece together the clues. Then they say the clues just aren't there.

 

that's why I am dropping a bomb on them.

 

And how does that make you any different at all from the IT crowd?

 

It makes you exactly the same.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"We are many eyes looking at the same things. One platform will see things another does not and will make different judgments." - Legion

[txgoldrush]

And how does that make you any different at all from the IT crowd?

 

It makes you exactly the same.

Because the IT crowd doesn't see the clues against them.

 

I go by what the game gives me, nothing more but nothing less as well.

[Farangbaa]

Because the IT crowd doesn't see the clues against them.

 

I go by what the game gives me, nothing more but nothing less as well.

 

You know this is exactly what they say, right?

[txgoldrush]

You know this is exactly what they say, right?

Yet the game gives them a clue that completely destroys their idea.