Also, in strongly stratified societies it *is* honorable to "give every person their due according to their station". That does mean unequal treatment, but it usually does not mean "being able to do anything to those beneath you", though it can happen in the case of slaves.
So the Chevaliers being able to murder or rape anyone below them does not strike you as "being able to do anything to those beneath you"?
The content of a code of honor has no dictionary definition, and the mere idea of respecting self-imposed rules does not have anything to do with hubris.I'm looking at dictionary definition, not personal interpretation of the word.
Do you have a problem with understanding what I write? I said it *usually* does not mean that. I don't know the specifics of the chevalier's code in this, but I'm pretty sure that killing someone just because you feel like it is not allowed.So the Chevaliers being able to murder or rape anyone below them does not strike you as "being able to do anything to those beneath you"?
Yeah, the point is Hinata, you're applying your personal definition of honorable to their ethos. And since it doesn't fit that leads to you calling it hubris. Which also doesn't fit. Having a code and following it can be viewed as honorable. Hubris is a personal "condition" and not something you can really apply to at organization.The content of a code of honor has no dictionary definition, and the mere idea of respecting self-imposed rules does not have anything to do with hubris.
Do you have a problem with understanding what I write? I said it *usually* does not mean that. I don't know the specifics of the chevalier's code in this, but I'm pretty sure that killing someone just because you feel like it is not allowed.
Okay, let's here what the Orlesian citizen Liselle says about it:
"The chevalier are knights of the highest order. They are the most skilled in the world, their discipline formidable. For their service they are allowed... privileges. These privileges are not always fair... I was a victim once. They can do whatever they want to the lesser-born."
And let's not forget that part of their initiation is killing elves. They literally are not allowed to become one until they murder someone.
You said:
"The Chevaliers believe in a code of " honor ", so rules written for them, for their group to which they identify . They see themself as honorable men if they respect scrupulously the code and their training where it have been edicted that some behaviors were their duty, were a part of their identity, a way of life which should affect them all their life."
Which strikes me as very similar to:
Hubris (/ˈhjuːbrɪs/, also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις), means extreme pride or self-confidence. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.
Respecting self -imposed rules means Hubris ? You've got to be kidding me... Loss of contact with reality ? overestimation of one's own competence ? Wow... Really ?
You do realize that there are judo clubs who have code of honor ? ... " Like use violence only when necessary ?
Also, the Wikipedia definition of something is never the soundest of footings to begin an argument. Hubris means extreme pride or self confidence, that's it.
And the Chevaliers are prideful and self-confident.
Respecting self -imposed rules means Hubris ? You've got to be kidding me... Loss of contact with reality ? overestimation of one's own competence ? Wow... Really ?
You do realize that there are judo clubs who have code of honor ? ... " Like use violence only when necessary ?
No, the they see themselves as honorable men part is.
Because they are a highly trained elite fighting force in the (arguably) most powerful nation in thedas. The point is, you stated that they are over-confident, that remains to be seen. But they haven't lost touch with reality, aren't delusional, and you don't get to define honour(or a code of honour) so anything you say is subject.And the Chevaliers are self-confident.
Because they are a highly trained elite fighting force in the (arguably) most powerful nation in thedas. The point is, you stated that they are over-confident, that remains to be seen. But they haven't lost touch with reality, aren't delusional, and you don't get to define honour(or a code of honour) so anything you say is subject.
They see those below them as sources for them to exploit their whims when those are the people they are supposed to protect from said whims. How is that not delusional or losing touch with reality?
They see those below them as sources for them to exploit their whims when those are the people they are supposed to protect from said whims. How is that not delusional or losing touch with reality?
No, the they see themselves as honorable men part is.
They see themself as honorable men if they follow their code. If they feel they didnt betray it, even if they aren't chevaliers anymore like Gaspard. Example :
That's the same for a man praticing judo. He sees himself as an honorable man, respecting the code of his club, and would feel ashamed if one day, he let the anger lead him, assaulting someone without good justification.
How is it a loss of contact with reality overall ? Self -confidence, yes, I agree. how is it wrong ?
And I agree with efd, respecting a code is kind of honorable; That is why it is called code of honor to begin with...
Because they are an elite military branch made up exclusively of nobles in a fantasy empire in a world that spits in the concept of equality and social justice? You're applying modern real world stuff to the game. They're fully in touch with reality because the reality of the situation is they are damn near untouchable. No delusions of any kind either. Their social position grants then pretty much anything they want, expecting more of the same is not delusional
I'd point out how them only accepting nobles despite how skilled a commoner may be is also a sign of arrogance, but you'll probably ignore that too.
As for the rest, they swore an oath to rotect Orlais and its people, only to exploit said people. That is at best hypocritical and thus dishonorable since they are breaking their oath. "I will protect these people from harm...unless I or my fellow Chevaliers wish to harm them."
arrogance isn't hubris. That's my whole point. Your problem with the chevaliers is that their ethos and actions offend your sensibilities. And instead of saying "I think they are scumbags" you're trying to make an arguement on another topic. Swearing to protect Orlais and honor your code does not preclude slaughtering people(for a variety of reasons)I'd point out how them only accepting nobles despite how skilled a commoner may be is also a sign of arrogance, but you'll probably ignore that too.
As for the rest, they swore an oath to rotect Orlais and its people, only to exploit said people. That is at best hypocritical and thus dishonorable since they are breaking their oath. "I will protect these people from harm...unless I or my fellow Chevaliers wish to harm them."
I'd point out how them only accepting nobles despite how skilled a commoner may be is also a sign of arrogance, but you'll probably ignore that too.
And how many commoners do you know are so skilled at arms as to compare to/be superior than a chevalier?
Kind of like Arlathan practicing slavery?
Exactly!
I love Gaspard the same reason I love Loghain, in my opinion of course, they were written well.
Exactly!
A Code of Honour is A weakness an enemy can exploit to destroy you.. Not A good trait for the leader of a nation. The appearence of Honour is a different matter.
Look what "Honour" did to Ned Stark the idiot, Could have saved himself and averted the massive scale of the civil war more than 3 times..But Alas his honour ensured that he died and the country suffered for it.
A Merchant of spices knows nothing of Honor! 
There's a line from the book that goes something like "honor doesn't rule out tactics". Look how gaspard plays celene in the book?A Code of Honour is A weakness an enemy can exploit to destroy you.. Not A good trait for the leader of a nation. The appearence of Honour is a different matter.
Look what "Honour" did to Ned Stark the idiot, Could have saved himself and averted the massive scale of the civil war more than 3 times..But Alas his honour ensured that he died and the country suffered for it.
There's a line from the book that goes something like "honor doesn't rule out tactics". Look how gaspard plays celene in the book?
Once again, havn't read the book. But doesn't he also kill A Duke that has thrown in with him because the guy attacks Celene? Hope word doesn't get back to that guys family, else looks like hes just given Celene A new ally while simultaneously depriving himself of one
arrogance isn't hubris. That's my whole point. Your problem with the chevaliers is that their ethos and actions offend your sensibilities. And instead of saying "I think they are scumbags" you're trying to make an arguement on another topic. Swearing to protect Orlais and honor your code does not preclude slaughtering people(for a variety of reasons)
Fine, I'll admit that hubris isn't the best word. Just tried to be clever since it and honor both started with H.
Once again, havn't read the book. But doesn't he also kill A Duke that has thrown in with him because the guy attacks Celene? Hope word doesn't get back to that guys family, else looks like hes just given Celene A new ally while simultaneously depriving himself of one
Spoiler: He killed that man for two reasons. First, because he gave his word that he and Celene would work together until they reached the center of the Eluvian network. Considering they couldn't go back due the first mirror being blasted in a fight, and the rather nasty number of demons that was attacking both parties at the time, it made sense. Second, he attacked Celene in the middle of a battle against a giant monster, and almost got everyone killed as a result. It was more along the lines of killing someone for disobeying a direct order.
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