290 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I thought so. Yeah, I'm definitely going to be housecleaning. Maybe I should call my Inquisitor Archangel. 

I agree, the initiation rite for the chevaliers is rather abhorrent. Housecleaning is definitely in order.

[Stella-Arc]

I really admire Gaspard and it's making it difficult for me to decide who should take the throne (if it comes down to that). At first, I like Celene but she is like a viper (who is quite progressive). After re-reading the book, I don't even know if she truly loved Briala and wants to help the elves. Gaspard on the other hand is honest and I prefer knowing when a knife is coming to my face instead of having one to my back. And besides, I do like how he has military experience and can play a nice game of Go. Celene is more of a chess player when all is said and done. A very bad one. 

[Banxey]

I don't think Gaspard is any more honorable than Celene. It's easy to be honorable when your code of conduct has loopholes. I think the only thing he did that didn't benefit himself in some way was killing Remache. The other things he did were technically honorable, but also had payoffs and were situations that could easily be manipulated. 

 

The thing that bothered me however was when he killed Celene's (newly made) scout. I liked that part of the story, I initially thought it showed both Celene and Gaspard in a positive light. Until I finished the book and realised that Gaspard benefited from killing him by gaining approval from the soldiers who witnessed it, despite not offering the man a fair fight. I can accept that he didn't give the man a choice of weapons, that the scout was starving, and potentially outclassed. But later we learn Gaspard has one of Lady Mantillon's rings. The man may have never had a chance, but if you respect someone as a "good soldier" don't use a ring that shows you their weaknesses in a fight.

 

Gaspard even mocks Celene by telling her she's out of practice and too reliant on the rings, after her deflects her attack while wearing his ring. The book even points out that while Briala is wearing Gaspard's ring, his attacks on the Varterral keep missing their mark. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

 

Anyway, as I said initially I thought Patrick did a good job. I felt he made Gaspard a flawed kind of honorable in the same way Celene is a flawed kind of compassionate. 

[Han Shot First]

And how many commoners do you know are so skilled at arms as to compare to/be superior than a chevalier?

 

That is a good point. 

 

Orlais is a quasi-medieval nation. The knights (which includes the nobility) would have learned how to ride horses and a handle a sword and a lance and possibily other weapons, from around 7 years old. By the time they were knighted they had been training for years.

 

The average knight would make short work of the average commoner, who may not have even held a sword before being press-ganged into some lord's army.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That is a good point. 

 

Orlais is a quasi-medieval nation. The knights (which includes the nobility) would have learned how to ride horses and a handle a sword and a lance and possibily other weapons, from around 7 years old. By the time they were knighted they had been training for years.

 

The average knight would make short work of the average commoner, who may not have even held a sword before being press-ganged into some lord's army.

Doesn't mean they should turn away proficient commoners simply because they are commoners. 

[Ieldra]

And how many commoners do you know are so skilled at arms as to compare to/be superior than a chevalier?

Gaspard accepts Michel as a chevalier even knowing he's a half-elf commoner. So I take it that the chevaliers are traditionally only nobles, but it's not a hard rule.

[Sylvianus]

There's a line from the book that goes something like "honor doesn't rule out tactics". Look how gaspard plays celene in the book?

 

Yep, that's where I started to like the Chevaliers when i read this line. At the beginning, I thought it was another dumb group that would deny the need of intelligence and cunning, but I'm glad I was wrong.

[Han Shot First]

Doesn't mean they should turn away proficient commoners simply because they are commoners. 

 

The pool of commoners who are as proficient as knights on the battlefield would probably be fairly tiny. When a commoner is a child his father shoves a spade or a hoe in his hand and he learns how to farm, whereas the nobleman's son is apprenticed to another knight (first as a page and then as a squire) and learning how to use a sword.

 

I'm not saying that the Chevaliers aren't also arrogant, classist jerks. Maybe they are. (I haven't read the books)

 

But if Orlais is anything like medieval Europe there would also be practical considerations for not admitting too many (if any) commoners.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The pool of commoners who are as proficient as knights on the battlefield would probably be fairly tiny. When a commoner is a child his father shoves a spade or a hoe in his hand and he learns how to farm, whereas the nobleman's son is apprenticed to another knight (first as a page and then as a squire) and learning how to use a sword.

 

I'm not saying that the Chevaliers aren't also arrogant, classist jerks. Maybe they are. (I haven't read the books)

 

But if Orlais is anything like medieval Europe there would also be practical considerations for not admitting too many (if any) commoners.

Oh, they are very much that. 

 

I'm not saying there are many, but there are a few commoners who can easily outmatch Chevaliers. Loghain springs to mind immediately. But the reason they don't take commoners is basically being a Chevalier is a status symbol and only the highborns should get the honor. 

[Sylvianus]

I really admire Gaspard and it's making it difficult for me to decide who should take the throne (if it comes down to that). At first, I like Celene but she is like a viper (who is quite progressive). After re-reading the book, I don't even know if she truly loved Briala and wants to help the elves. Gaspard on the other hand is honest and I prefer knowing when a knife is coming to my face instead of having one to my back. And besides, I do like how he has military experience and can play a nice game of Go. Celene is more of a chess player when all is said and done. A very bad one. 

 

From what I read so far, I think Celene truly loved Briala, because she has without any doubt threatened her own throne for her. Didn't want to marry any noble or Gaspard, because it would be over with Briala. That's where her " i'd do anything for the good of Orlais " was flawled. She promised also some things, " like freedom for elves " because she didn't want to lose her love I suppose. 

 

But freedom for elves, I don't believe it right now. She doesn't care that much about the elves that she calls  "poor creature " and since I haven't finished the book yet, I'm hoping that Briala won't believe it too. The human people would not accept that, half of the kingdom would be hostile. Celene was already affected by rumors about her being too lenient toward the elves, and just for a few rumors, ( while someone else would do it for security ) she decided to crush a rebellion. It was all about the game and elves were casualties of it. Celene has never let anyone or anything threatened her throne, so I'm not sure she will take all the risks for the elves. 

 

I'll see if I change my mind later.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Edit : cancel my post please. 

You should see next to where you would quote your post there is a red circle with a white bar in it that says Hide ext to it. Click that and it will go away.

[Sylvianus]

Thanks. New thing learned today.   ( in the old bsn, we couldn't cancel our post )

[Nohvarr]

He's actually not a racist(IMO) he looks down on everybody equally. And there are some sections of the book where he shows growth(romanche and Michel) that bely the initial "angry stabby racist" vibes you'd expect. That and he utterly destroys celene at the "game" she is supposedly a master of. He wrecks her, he plays her, and earns the magnificent bastard trope in doing so.
Edit: I'm serious, if you haven't read the book, don't go believing celene is the only character with political acumen. Even with briala as her spymaster, Gaspard blindsides Celene repeatedly. He's the political version of the end of most M Night shyamalan movies.

 

Celene is not a master at the game, Briala is and that becomes very clear very quickly. If Celene had taken Briala's advice to marry she could've stopped Gaspard cold. If Celene had not allowed herself to be goaded into a fight that was already being taken care of she could've beaten him as well. Instead she underestimated Gaspard and got a lot of innocent people killed.

 

At this point, neither faction has my support, and I might just be willing to save Orlais for last if it means I can crush both factions and bring the remnants to heel.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thanks. New thing learned today.   ( in the old bsn, we couldn't cancel our post )

No problem.

[Augustei]

From what I read so far, I think Celene truly loved Briala, because she has without any doubt threatened her own throne for her. Didn't want to marry any noble or Gaspard, because it would be over with Briala. That's where her " i'd do anything for the good of Orlais " was flawled. She promised also some things, " like freedom for elves " because she didn't want to lose her love I suppose. 

I dont think the reason she didn't marry Gaspard or any of the nobles was because of Briala... She intended to marry Cailan after all...Though she would most likely have killed him once she was pregnant with A child, his or not.

[Kenny Da Finn]

I am a big fan of Gaspard's character and hope he plays a large role in DA:I. To me he is a perfect mix of cunning, honour, ruthlessness and bravery. The best part about him in my opinion is that he can be a Antagonist you can respect but at the same time be an ally you could trust (as much as you could trust any orlesian anyway). In all honesty I would probably agree with his decisions more than i did with Anders in DA2 (or Merril or Sebastion or Isabella.... well you get the point). I was also surprised at his honesty when he admits that part of the reason he tried to overthrow Celene was simply because he wanted the throne.

 

I believe he also has room to grow and does not seem to just blindly follow a single path like some of the characters in Thedas seem to.

[Sylvianus]

I dont think the reason she didn't marry Gaspard or any of the nobles was because of Briala... She intended to marry Cailan after all...Though she would most likely have killed him once she was pregnant with A child, his or not.

 

Yes, the reason is Briala. There was nothing to worry about for Cailan... This is not the same. It was about a fool to manipulate and taking control over his country without too much effort. It would not take long before Ferelden falls. Celene has been trained as a bard and she knows how to seduce dudes, so that she can easily manipulate them, doing exactly what she wants. Briala wouldn't certainly risk anything. 

 

Get married with a noble of Orlais is another thing. This is legitimacy. No chance. She couldn't mess with that. Aslo, Celene told it herself to Briala when the elf suggested that she could marry Rematche to beat Gaspard. 

 

Spoiler

Briala : << he might find ruling beside you more tempting than serving Gaspard. >>Celene : << I would lose you , Bria, you're all I have. >>

 

There are also some other excerpts where Celene clearly thinks that she would not marry someone because of her...

[JeffZero]

He's cool, but I'd punch him in the face anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

An organization that allows its members to do whatever they feel like to those beneath them I would not say is something with honor.

This says much about your own perception of honor- such that honor necessitates a certain amount of respect to those beneath them.

 

A reasonable view, but not a universal one. One of the great issues of cross-culture difficulties is that there is no universal consensus for it. Depending on who you ask where, honor could require you to forgive a hated foe, start a blood feud with a friend, stay true to an unhappy monogamous relationship, or even kill family.

 

I'm not saying you are better or worse for it, but this is a reflection of your own cultural concept of honor.

[JeffZero]

Holistic approach, always.

[dragonflight288]

Anyway thinking honor, honor, honor, honor all the time is dumb. i wouldn't respect the Chevaliers if they favored honor above all to the detriment of intelligent strategy.

 

Oh come on, we dwarves live and breath honor. Nobles surround themselves in it, immerse themselves in it to such a degree that arguments and even provings are declared over who has the better servants. 

 

It's no wonder humans are finally getting the idea and are trying to become honorable. 

[Augustei]

Oh come on, we dwarves live and breath honor. Nobles surround themselves in it, immerse themselves in it to such a degree that arguments and even provings are declared over who has the better servants. 

 

It's no wonder humans are finally getting the idea and are trying to become honorable. 

Oh please, your Dwarves dont give a damn about Honour, as long as you appear honourable thats all that matters to you =P

[TheJediSaint]

Dwarf PC to Gaspard.

 

*Puts on Bane Mask*

 

"You think Honor is your ally.  But you merely adopted Honor; I was born in it, molded by it."

[efd731]

^^^"i didn't see the casteless till I was Allready a man"

Edit: I wish they'd release some art of gaspard, I need something to counteract my mental image of him as tywin lannister/Ned stark.

[LordofOrzammar]

Throw me into the Gaspard supporters category, far more trustworthy than Celine, far more honorable, and, in my opinion, all around better. I like his dedication to honor, I like the order he represents (I've actually never been fond of Orleis but the Chevaliers  are interesting) and I love the way he constantly outwits Celine, a so called 'master of the game' I'm putting him on the throne for sure.