127 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

Now first off, this is for debate and discussion of the topic, I'm not making this for a debate about the dalish, the CEs, or who started the freaking war of the dales.  Not do I want to see idiotic discussion regarding personal feeling related to one Dalish blood mage known as Merril.  If something related to Merril honestly fits the discussion by all means, but I really don't want to have another debate about the merrits of Merril as an individual.  Now that all being said....

 

 

In DA2 Merril presents the idea that Dalish don't see a difference in spirits and demons and view all of them as dangerous.  This along with information on Dalish magic in WoT has lead to the interpretation that Dalish do not traffic with spirits.

 

However, in ME, the Dalish very much traffic with a spirit and Fellassan presents the Dalish view point as being that all spirits are dangerous and are treated like wild animals but they can be dealt with.

 

These inconsistencies have lead to debate about what the actual interpretation should be.

 

1)That Dalish don't summon or deal with spirits at all.

or

2) That Dalish do summon spirits, but they don't actually use spirits in their magic alla Spirit healers or Seers.

 

and I am sure there are other theories out there.

 

I hope that at some point either the game or the devs address this bit of inconsistency.  Whether it is a matter of the Dalish clans vary greatly on their beliefs due to their isolation, Fellessan is full of it( I actually hope not, I liked him), Clan Virnhen is an outlier, Merril isn't as knowledgeable as we think, or it is a matter of us misinterpreting the information at hand, I would like it answered.

 

P.S.  For Lob, in the other thread you espoused that if the Dalish deal with spirits they are the same as Andrastians.  That isn't true, as Andrastians actually see a difference in spirits and demons whereas the Dalish could still consider them all the same and all dangerous.

[Hellion Rex]

Ok, as to the Dalish clan from TME, I saw them as a very big exception to the rule of not really messing around with spiritual entities.

 

 

As to the rest, I do agree that there are some inconsistancies, especially regarding the control and command of sylvan creatures by the Dalish. Sylvans are created when demons possess a tree, so idk how you can explain that one to me. It doesn't fit with the so called Dalish view of spirits.

[LobselVith8]

In "The Masked Empire", Clan Virnehn summoned the spirit Imshael, and Dalish characters Felassan and Mihris use the term 'demon'. While it can be argued that this is done for the sake of the Andrastian characters they are speaking to, the story never addresses that the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views on spirits and the Beyond, and no one comments on a Dalish clan summoning a spirit, despite how World of Thedas reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) 

 

Merrill and Anders also have several religious debates about the dichotomy between how the Dalish view them all as spirits who are all dangerous, while Anders says that they are divided into Spirits and Demons, the First Children of the Maker and those who turned their backs on the Maker to embody different "sins". In one argument between the two characters, Anders argues, "Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons. [...] Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor."

 

Anders' Andrastian distinctions are also addressed in the Andrastian codex entry, "The Maker's First Children", "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion." It later reads, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

Merrill and WoT echo the same elven classification for spirts, as noted when Merrill says: As Merrill says, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't." Clearly, the Dalish wouldn't hold the same views as the Andrastians, but it's surprising that this is completely glossed over in the storyline. Even more odd, Briala even chastises all the Dalish (when speaking to Mihris) as though they all exhibit the behavior of Clan Virnehn, even though the clan displays behavior that is apparently atypical of the Dalish clans.

 

As a side-note, there's also the lack of character given to Clan Virnehn, who are basically one-note villains with no depth or nuance given to their characterizations. Keeper Thelhen is flat, with no real character traits to his personalty, other than hatred for the shemlen and city elves, while the warleader is basically a walking parody who repeatedly uses 'shemlen' as though he's saying the derogatory term 'shem' instead, and he has no purpose except to be used as a prop by Michel for insults, which all fall flat when there's nothing to the warleader's personality to make Michel seem that witty in comparison. The reason I mention this is because I think the absence of the cultural and religious views for the Dalish, and the one-dimensional portrayal of Clan Virnehn, are tied to one another.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ok, as to the Dalish clan from TME, I saw them as a very big exception to the rule of not really messing around with spiritual entities.

 

 

As to the rest, I do agree that there are some inconsistancies, especially regarding the control and command of sylvan creatures by the Dalish. Sylvans are created when demons possess a tree, so idk how you can explain that one to me. It doesn't fit with the so called Dalish view of spirits.

Just because all spirits are dangerous does not mean they are not useful. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Any one want some Popcorn?

 

Also i think the Dalish view of spirits shifts from when they find it useful to "use" them to when they find it "not" so useful to use them.

 

I think its a matter of practicality or potential utility over "culture".

 

My opinion.

[Knight of Dane]

I assume ME means Masked Empire and not Mass Effect, please add a spoiler tag.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I always assumed it was a risks and gains sort of issue. They acknowledge that spirits are all dangerous, but sometimes they weigh the risks of dealing with them against the gains of dealing with them and decide to take a risk. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I assume ME means Masked Empire and not Mass Effect, please add a spoiler tag.

Safe to assume that since this isn't the Mass Effect forums. 

[Hellion Rex]

I always assumed it was a risks and gains sort of issue. They acknowledge that spirits are all dangerous, but sometimes they weigh the risks of dealing with them against the gains of dealing with them and decide to take a risk. 

Agreed. I thought the WoT note only meant that they were extremely careful when using spirit magic, not that they never actually used it.

[LobselVith8]

Ok, as to the Dalish clan from TME, I saw them as a very big exception to the rule of not really messing around with spiritual entities.

 

The fact that no one in the clan would have an issue with the defiance against using magic that involves a spirit was a huge stretch.

 

As to the rest, I do agree that there are some inconsistancies, especially regarding the control and command of sylvan creatures by the Dalish. Sylvans are created when demons possess a tree, so idk how you can explain that one to me. It doesn't fit with the so called Dalish view of spirits.

 

Dalish magic evolved towards nature, so it may be similar to how they can control roots to attack enemies, assuming that their control of trees has nothing to do with having a spirit inhabit it. According to WoT: "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing." (page 104)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The fact that no one in the clan would have an issue with the defiance against using magic that involves a spirit was a huge stretch.

 

 

Dalish magic evolved towards nature, so it may be similar to how they can control roots to attack enemies, assuming that their control of trees has nothing to do with having a spirit inhabit it. According to WoT: "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing." (page 104)

They made a pun. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Agreed. I thought the WoT note only meant that they were extremely careful when using spirit magic, not that they never actually used it.

 

Indeed, Demonology though is Demonology and its clear the Dalish variant is no less...risky to the wielder then the non Dalish variant if we go by the results of its usage anyway.

[Master Warder Z_]

They made a pun. 

 

Bioware tries  

[Hellion Rex]

Dalish magic evolved towards nature, so it may be similar to how they can control roots to attack enemies, assuming that their control of trees has nothing to do with having a spirit inhabit it. According to WoT: "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing." (page 104)

True. I guess you could spin it as merely controlling the trees that the spirits inhabit, not the spirits themselves.

[wcholcombe]

In "The Masked Empire", Clan Virnehn summoned the spirit Imshael, and Dalish characters Felassan and Mihris use the term 'demon'. While it can be argued that this is done for the sake of the Andrastian characters they are speaking to, the story never addresses that the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views on spirits and the Beyond, and no one comments on a Dalish clan summoning a spirit, despite how World of Thedas reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) 

 

Merrill and Anders also have several religious debates about the dichotomy between how the Dalish view them all as spirits who are all dangerous, while Anders says that they are divided into Spirits and Demons, the First Children of the Maker and those who turned their backs on the Maker to embody different "sins". In one argument between the two characters, Anders argues, "Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons. [...] Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor."

 

Anders' Andrastian distinctions are also addressed in the Andrastian codex entry, "The Maker's First Children", "The Maker's first creations were the spirits, glorious beings that populated the many spires of the Golden City, and the Chant of Light says that they revered the Maker with unquestioning devotion." It later reads, "As the spirits grew in power, however, some of them became contemptuous of the living. These were the spirits that saw the darkest parts of the dreamers. Their lands were places of torment and horror, and they knew that the living were strongly drawn to places that mirrored those dark parts of themselves. These spirits questioned the Maker's wisdom and proclaimed the living inferior. They learned from the darkness they saw and became the first demons."

 

Merrill and WoT echo the same elven classification for spirts, as noted when Merrill says: As Merrill says, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't." Clearly, the Dalish wouldn't hold the same views as the Andrastians, but it's surprising that this is completely glossed over in the storyline. Even more odd, Briala even chastises all the Dalish (when speaking to Mihris) as though they all exhibit the behavior of Clan Virnehn, even though the clan displays behavior that is apparently atypical of the Dalish clans.

 

As a side-note, there's also the lack of character given to Clan Virnehn, who are basically one-note villains with no depth or nuance given to their characterizations. Keeper Thelhen is flat, with no real character traits to his personalty, other than hatred for the shemlen and city elves, while the warleader is basically a walking parody who repeatedly uses 'shemlen' as though he's saying the derogatory term 'shem' instead, and he has no purpose except to be used as a prop by Michel for insults, which all fall flat when there's nothing to the warleader's personality to make Michel seem that witty in comparison. The reason I mention this is because I think the absence of the cultural and religious views for the Dalish, and the one-dimensional portrayal of Clan Virnehn, are tied to one another.

Fellessan and Mihris using the term demon when discussing with the other characters is probably not that meaningful.  Felessan isn't even Dalish and it was probably more a result of Patrick Weekes not being as familiar with the spirit/demon terminology issues, plus it makes it simpler for readers who aren't as familiar.  Plus, it confers the idea that Ishmael is evil to the reader if they aren't familiar with the character's name from previous games.

 

Fellessan also uses the term Demon when discussing the view dalish have on summoning spirits, but again he is talking to an Andrastian city elf and isn't really a follower of Dalish beliefs, so I can excuse his lax use of terminology. 

 

He does however say that Dalish view dealing with demons(I take it as him meaning all spirits) as the same as dealing with a dangerous wild animal-which does jive with Merrils comment about all spirits being dangerous.

 

The WoT language is a bit harder to get around, but you can still get around it in the idea that Dalish don't use spirits in their actual spells or to boost their spells.

 

As for the portrayal of that clan. One could argue they are a very feral (yeah I know Lob you will love me for using that term) group that is extremely isolated from people and as such comes across as being similar to how some tribes of native americans or african tribes have interacted with foriegners.  I don't think they are indicative of Dalish tribes in any way, but I can understand the reasons they would act and behave as they did.

[Hellion Rex]

Fellessan and Mihris using the term demon when discussing with the other characters is probably not that meaningful.  Felessan isn't even Dalish and it was probably more a result of Patrick Weekes not being as familiar with the spirit/demon terminology issues, plus it makes it simpler for readers who aren't as familiar.  Plus, it confers the idea that Ishmael is evil to the reader if they aren't familiar with the character's name from previous games.

Considering Weekes is one of the major writers in DAI, I wouldn't go making assumptions that he doesn't know the lore. As for Felassan, I do believe he was born Dalish, but simply doesn't consider himself to be one now.

[Wolfen09]

was merril able to use spirit magic in da2, i remember she didnt have a healer class, but i thought she had a spirit class...

 

anyway, i definitely see it as a risk v gain issue...

[wcholcombe]

Considering Weekes is one of the major writers in DAI, I wouldn't go making assumptions that he doesn't know the lore. As for Felassan, I do believe he was born Dalish, but simply doesn't consider himself to be one now.

ok my bad, I thought he was the guy who wrote all the Dragon lance novels and was just brought in to write this book.

[LobselVith8]

He does however say that Dalish view dealing with demons(I take it as him meaning all spirits) as the same as dealing with a dangerous wild animal-which does jive with Merrils comment about all spirits being dangerous.

 

The WoT language is a bit harder to get around, but you can still get around it in the idea that Dalish don't use spirits in their actual spells or to boost their spells.

 

Except WoT echoes what Merrill says about all spirits being dangerous, to the point of expressing that the People's prohibition against using magic that involves spirits steams from their view that all spirits are dangerous. Perhaps it's as you say, that Weekes is unfamiliar with the Dalish, since even Gaider (the lead) stated he was told by Kirby that the qunari protagonist is technically Vashoth.

 

As for the portrayal of that clan. One could argue they are a very feral (yeah I know Lob you will love me for using that term) group that is extremely isolated from people and as such comes across as being similar to how some tribes of native americans or african tribes have interacted with foriegners.  I don't think they are indicative of Dalish tribes in any way, but I can understand the reasons they would act and behave as they did.

 

I think one-dimensional or absurd caricatures would have also fit the description of the named characters of the clan. Considering how Celene and Gaspard were depicted as three-dimensional, it's a real shame that the same can't be said for Clan Virnehn.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

ok my bad, I thought he was the guy who wrote all the Dragon lance novels and was just brought in to write this book.

Fun fact, he is the namesake for the salarian Padok Wiks. 

[Hellion Rex]

ok my bad, I thought he was the guy who wrote all the Dragon lance novels and was just brought in to write this book.

No, he's one of the leading developers in both DA and ME.

[Wolfen09]

I really didnt care for that clan anyway, i would have them rather gone into depth on felassan and his relationship with his clan...  i thought that mages in a dalish clan were apprenticed to the keeper, how would we explain a long leave of absense for felassan when he is technically supposed to be a big figure in his clan?  Only thing i can think of is either A. he left his clan   B.  thats not right and dalish who can use magic are just normal tribe members  C. Felassan's clan is behind all of it

[LobselVith8]

Considering Weekes is one of the major writers in DAI, I wouldn't go making assumptions that he doesn't know the lore. As for Felassan, I do believe he was born Dalish, but simply doesn't consider himself to be one now.

 

Well, considering the omission of the Dalish cultural and religious views, this knowledge doesn't seem to be evident in TME. Only Andrastian definitions are used. There's also Weekes' characterization of the named Dalish characters, which I found to be jarring, since it's hard to be invested when the personalities of a group you see as complex are depicted as paper-thin.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The thing that struck me as odd from seeing the clan Merrill/possible warden came from vs the clan in the book was the city elf prejudice issue. It seems like the clan in the book had polar opposite views of city elves and dealing with demons. From the treatment of Feynriel and Pol in DA2, it seems that clan was actually much more accepting of not only just city elves, but even half elves, than they were of Merrill, do to her blood magic and demon contact. The clan in the book is fine with dealing with Ishmael and they hate city elves. 

 

I suppose this can be hand-waved by previous lines in the lore that state that Dalish clans have little contact and vary widely, though. 

[Hellion Rex]

Well, considering the omission of the Dalish cultural and religious views, this knowledge doesn't seem to be evident in TME. Only Andrastian definitions are used. There's also Weekes' characterization of the named Dalish characters, which I found to be jarring, since it's hard to be invested when the personalities of a group you see as complex are depicted as paper-thin.

Not really. I thought the Dalish were depicted fine, and they were meant to be an example of the "bad Dalish", just like bad groups of every other faction or race. As for your point about Andrastian definitions, that point is countered by Imshael himself, who dislikes the term demon, and asks to be called spirit quite often. Heck, we don't even see the other Dalish interact with the demon save Mihris, so we never got a chance to see if they would use their "Dalish" definitions.