127 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

I'm not sure there's that much of an inconsistency really. It's just that it's not a clear cut issue.

 

In all depiction we've seen the dalish, we've always seen spirits being used in one fashion or another. Zathrian summoned one and bound it to create the curse that would serve as the vessel of his vengence. Velanna goaded Sylvans to attack humans, and even the warden. Merrill dealt with one to learn blood magic and to recieve instructions (which she can admit if you rival her) on how to reconstruct the Eluvian. Clan Vihren summoned and bound one for almost the same purpose that Merrill did.

 

But at the same time...

 

Zathrian lied about to his own clan and guarded the secret like a deep shame. Velanna was a lonely and desperate woman seeking to use the most destructive means possible. Merrill was outcast because of her actions. Clan Vihren ultimately refused to pay the price the demon asked in return for giving them access.

 

All of this suggest that the Dalish do indeed deal with spirits, but also treat them as very dangerous. None of the dalish that have dealt with spirits did so lightly. This suggests a far more complex picture than a pure black and white one. One where a spirit might be used or harnessed if the need is percieved as great enough. Like a chance at restoring a piece of the past, which we've seen repeatedly is something the dalish value above all else.

 

All in all. I do not see an inconsistency. I see a case where we have yet to see the entire picture. Where everything new adds a new piece to the puzzle.

 

---

 

Also... I might add that while the dalish might not use andrastian terms like demon often, there are cases where the distinction is of value. All spirits may be dangerous, but demons are slightly more predatorial about it. Demon might be andrastian/tevinter (I do think it's the latter actually, the andrastians simply inherited the term), but it's a quick an easy term for such a being. If that is what you're dealing with and you cannot identify type... why reinvent the wheel?

 

The elves do use the term Somniari after all. Which is definantely tevinter in origin.

[LobselVith8]

Also... I might add that while the dalish might not use andrastian terms like demon often, there are cases where the distinction is of value. All spirits may be dangerous, but demons are slightly more predatorial about it. Demon might be andrastian/tevinter (I do think it's the latter actually, the andrastians simply inherited the term), but it's a quick an easy term for such a being. If that is what you're dealing with and you cannot identify type... why reinvent the wheel?

 

The elves do use the term Somniari after all. Which is definantely tevinter in origin.

 

The Dalish view all spirits are dangerous, however, so I don't see the need for using non-Dalish terms that aren't part of their own cultural view on such beings, aside from convenience for players who are more accustomed to hearing the Andrastian terms. As for 'somniari', the Dalish may have their own word for dreamers, since the Dalish elves do have their own terms for a myriad of things, including their own names for humans and dwarves (shemlen and durgen’len, respectively).

 

For anyone who is curious (since it's pertinent to the thread), I asked Patrick Weekes the question about why the Dalish in TME used the term 'demons', since it's an Andrastian term, and his response was: "Partly because you're never in a Dalish elf's POV when it comes up -- Michel, Briala, Celene." He added: "But mostly the first one, for ease of reading. It's a complex enough issue to require more time than was available to explain."

[Hellion Rex]

The Dalish view all spirits are dangerous, however, so I don't see the need for using non-Dalish terms that aren't part of their own cultural view on such beings, aside from convenience for players who are more accustomed to hearing the Andrastian terms. As for 'somniari', the Dalish may have their own word for dreamers, since the Dalish elves do have their own terms for a myriad of things, including their own names for humans and dwarves (shemlen and durgen’len, respectively).

Except Marethari calls Feynriel a "somniari" and Felassan uses the term "Dreamer".

[Master Warder Z_]

Except Marethari calls Feynriel a "somniari" and Felassan uses the term "Dreamer".

 

I think we can discern that the Dalish are a mixed bag on the issue but it seems to be that profit and gain dictate usage, not outright prohibition.

[LobselVith8]

Except Marethari calls Feynriel a "somniari" and Felassan uses the term "Dreamer".

 

In dialogue with Hawke, an Andrastian who showed confusion when she used the term 'Beyond' in addressing the Fade, and showed familiarity with Andrastian terms when explaining things to the protagonist.

[Sifr]

Except Marethari calls Feynriel a "somniari" and Felassan uses the term "Dreamer".

 

Keep in mind, the Dalish aren't a unified group and have fragmented knowledge of their own lore and language, so it stands to reason that some clans might not know the original terms that other clans do. Similarly, some Dalish clans are said to be openly hostile to Shemlen, while others are neutral and others occasionally interact to trade.

 

It stands to reason that the opinion on dealing with spirits are similarly divided in this regard, with some seeing it as too much of a risk to attempt, while others believe that it's an acceptable risk if done for the greater good of the clan. And as shown by Merrill's belief in preserving the Eluvian at all costs and her befriending Hawke when some of her kinsman only seem to tolerate Hawke because of Marethari, sometimes these differences can even occur within the same clan.

 

I see the Dalish's view of spirits as being kind of like their relationship with Flemeth (whatever she is). You're dealing with something dangerous, far more powerful than you and hopefully if you're very, very lucky, you'll be able to walk away of the encounter ahead... or failing that, at least with your head still attached to your body.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I've always said the belief that the Dalish don't recognize the concept of demons is wrong. And given the number of times Felassan and Mihris use the word "demon," I think the Masked Empire supports my view.

 

The difference is they look at spirits and demons in a slightly different perspective than Andrastians, which Felsassan himself acknowledges.

 

What World of Thedas says is that the Dalish view dealing with any spirits as dangerous because they are like wild animals. In the case of Thelhen, he obviously believed it was worth the risk. It's quite possible the clan went along with it because they trusted their Keeper or did have objections but we never heard about it. We never see the events from their perspective.

[LobselVith8]

I've always said the belief that the Dalish don't recognize the concept of demons is wrong.

I don't see what's wrong about it; it's not as though the Dalish don't recognize the different nature of spirits. Merrill cautions that Torpor is a creature of Sloth; the difference is that she doesn't believe that demons are spurned Sprits who embody different "sins", and the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous.

And given the number of times Felassan and Mihris use the word "demon," I think the Masked Empire supports my view.

I just posted the response from the author on the issue - it's due to fan convenience about the distinctions, and not being in the Dalish POV.

[themageguy]

I'm more interested in who/ what Felassan was talking to at the end.
He was such an awesome character and gave me a great idea on what my dalish inquisitor should use spell wise for dA: I.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Given how well the book captures the different perspectives of different characters, that strikes me as an unlikely shortcut to take. Felassan even uses the term "demon" to describe how the Dalish view them differently than the Chantry, which to me implies there is still some sort of distinction. It seems like he could have explained they don't see any distinction between demons and other spirits just as easily.

 

I did notice a mistake or two, myself. Such as when Mihris uses the expression "The Fade," but that only happened like once or twice. Using the expression "demon" was pretty persistent.

 

The Dalish don't believe in everything an Andrastian would about a demon, obviously. They don't believe they are spurned spirits that embody sins that were created by the Maker, but they don't have to in order to believe there is such a thing as a demon. All they need to believe is that beyond the Veil there is a certain type of creature with a certain type of behavior and attributes that qualifies it as a demon. Whether they believe that a demon is evil or just dangerous by nature, is a secondary issue.

 

Even before the book came out I thought the analogy of "wild animals" was apt in describing the Dalish view of spirits. All wild animals are dangerous. But a carnivore (like a lion or leopard) and a herbivore (like a bull or a buffalo) can be dangerous for different reasons and require different terms.

[erilben]

Marethari uses the word "demon" in DA2 too. Even in Merrill's short story. When trying to get Fenyriel possesed, you can tell him to "let the spirits in", he will freak out and says something like "you mean demons. The keeper warned me about them". Why did the keeper teach him about demons and spirits if Dalish don't beleive in that? It was only Merrill that insists her demon is spirit. It just makes her look like a liar when no other Dalish seem to agree with her.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Merrill and Marathari both use the term more than once in Dragon Age 2. Sometimes even when talking to eachother.

[LobselVith8]

Given how well the book captures the different perspectives of different characters, that strikes me as an unlikely shortcut to take. Felassan even uses the term "demon" to describe how the Dalish view them differently than the Chantry, which to me implies there is still some sort of distinction. It seems like he could have explained they don't see any distinction between demons and other spirits just as easily.

By Weekes' own admission, it was a mixture of the lack of a Dalish POV and reader convenience, due to the complexity of the issue.

I did notice a mistake or two, myself. Such as when Mihris uses the expression "The Fade," but that only happened like once or twice. Using the expression "demon" was pretty persistent.

Considering Merrill's religious debates with Anders, WoT, and Weekes (the author) addressing that the usage of demons in TME was for reader convenience, I'm not seeing what there is to debate.

 
The Dalish don't believe in everything an Andrastian would about a demon, obviously. They don't believe they are spurned spirits that embody sins that were created by the Maker, but they don't have to in order to believe there is such a thing as a demon. All they need to believe is that beyond the Veil there is a certain type of creature with a certain type of behavior and attributes that qualifies it as a demon. Whether they believe that a demon is evil or just dangerous by nature, is a secondary issue.
 
Even before the book came out I thought the analogy of "wild animals" was apt in describing the Dalish view of spirits. All wild animals are dangerous. But a carnivore (like a lion or leopard) and a herbivore (like a bull or a buffalo) can be dangerous for different reasons and require different terms.

The Dalish view them all as spirits - from Merrill to the World of Thedas, this is consistent. And even the author never said that the lore changed, so I don't see what you're trying to argue, since you already admitted you think the Dalish are wrong. Are you saying Merrill, WoT, and Weekes are all wrong?

[wcholcombe]

Just a point of clarification right quick, Felessan ain't Dalish. He may have been at one time but he isn't anymore, as Briala herself learned.

He hasn't been part of any clan in a long long time.

[Xilizhra]

Dalish see spirits as dangerous like the Chantry sees magic as dangerous; it doesn't mean they don't ever use them. At least, that's how it seems to me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish view them all as spirits - from Merrill to the World of Thedas, this is consistent. And even the author never said that the lore changed, so I don't see what you're trying to argue, since you already admitted you think the Dalish are wrong. Are you saying Merrill, WoT, and Weekes are all wrong?

 

I didn't say the lore was changed. And I wasn't saying that they were all wrong. I was saying that your interpretation about what Merrill and World of Thedas meant was wrong. You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that demons are a thing. There are non Andrastians who believe that demons are a distinct category of spirits, Morrigan or Justice. All Merrill's argument with Anders proves is that the Dalish don't believe in the various details relating to spirits and demons as the Chantry does.

[LobselVith8]

Marethari uses the word "demon" in DA2 too. Even in Merrill's short story. When trying to get Fenyriel possesed, you can tell him to "let the spirits in", he will freak out and says something like "you mean demons. The keeper warned me about them". Why did the keeper teach him about demons and spirits if Dalish don't beleive in that? It was only Merrill that insists her demon is spirit. It just makes her look like a liar when no other Dalish seem to agree with her.

Because it's likely a mistake, and we have more sources that stipulate otherwise? Anders is an invincible cannibal in his short story, but that's clearly not the case in the narrative of Dragon Age II. I'm not seeing why we should dismiss Merrill, World of Thedas, and even the author saying that he didn't want to get into the nuances of Dalish belief for reader convenience.

It's made clear the distinction is Andrastian in the religious debates between Anders and Merrill. WoT also supports Merrill's views on all spirits being dangerous as a perspective of the Dalish in saying, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

[Xilizhra]

Elves use human language due to lacking a lot of knowledge of their own, and picking up the word "demon" and using it sometimes in reference to those spirits that are called demons by humans does not seem unreasonable. There's also a demonstrable difference in behavior patterns between demons and other spirits, as demons tend to actively want to breach the Veil.

[Master Warder Z_]

Elves use human language

 

King's Tongue is Technically Dwarven.

 

Just saying.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Elves use human language due to lacking a lot of knowledge of their own, and picking up the word "demon" and using it sometimes in reference to those spirits that are called demons by humans does not seem unreasonable. There's also a demonstrable difference in behavior patterns between demons and other spirits, as demons tend to actively want to breach the Veil.

 

This is kind of what I was getting at the whole time. But if they really believed there was no distinction, the elves wouldn't have needed to adopt the human term "demons" because "spirits" is also used as a catch all term for beings of the Fade by humans too.

 

In the Masked Empire Felsaasn uses the elven word for Arcane Horror, which is apparently "Era'harel" and he translates it as essentially "demon-mage." That also implies to me the elves recognized the concept.

[Hellion Rex]

By Weekes' own admission, it was a mixture of the lack of a Dalish POV and reader convenience, due to the complexity of the issue.

Where did he admit to this?

[Master Warder Z_]

Where did he admit to this?

 

I too am curious about that.

[Hellion Rex]

I too am curious about that.

Indeed. I'll concede the issue if I can get a source.

[Hellion Rex]

Never mind. Found it. I'll post them

[Hellion Rex]

‏@User

@PatrickWeekes Why do the Dalish in TME use the Andrastian term demons? Merrill & WoT read that Dalish simply view them all as spirits.

 

Patrick Weekes ‏@PatrickWeekes 2h

@User Partly for reader. Partly because saying, "It's all just spirits," works for rage but maybe not for Big Bads like redacted.Partly because you're never in a Dalish elf's POV when it comes up -- Michel, Briala, Celene. But mostly the first one, for ease of reading. It's a complex enough issue to require more time than was available to explain.