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[Master Warder Z_]

‏@User

@PatrickWeekes Why do the Dalish in TME use the Andrastian term demons? Merrill & WoT read that Dalish simply view them all as spirits.

 

Patrick Weekes ‏@PatrickWeekes 2h

@User Partly for reader. Partly because saying, "It's all just spirits," works for rage but maybe not for Big Bads like redacted.Partly because you're never in a Dalish elf's POV when it comes up -- Michel, Briala, Celene. But mostly the first one, for ease of reading. It's a complex enough issue to require more time than was available to explain.

 

That seems to me, He didn't gloss over their viewpoint for expediency.

 

It was just never presented.

 

Therefore to me? That indicates it wasn't covered so we don't know.

[llandwynwyn]

I don't see the big deal. Just because most of the Dalish are this way, it doesn't mean all are. I thought the usage of 'demon' was literary liberty (don't know if that's the exact expression in english).

 

That said, they were rather simplistic.

[LobselVith8]

I didn't say the lore was changed. And I wasn't saying that they were all wrong. I was saying that your interpretation about what Merrill and World of Thedas meant was wrong. You don't have to be Andrastian to believe that demons are a thing. There are non Andrastians who believe that demons are a distinct category of spirits, Morrigan or Justice. All Merrill's argument with Anders proves is that the Dalish don't believe in the various details relating to spirits and demons as the Chantry does.

Merrill doesn't adhere to Anders' distinction between Sprits and Demons in multiple religious debates over their views on the denizens of the Fade, and she says all spirits are dangerous. WoT reads that all spirits are dangerous, and that this is why the Dalish don't use magic that involves spirits. The Dalish don't make a distinction between benevolent and malevolent spirits, as they view all spirits as dangerous, so I don't see why you think the Dalish use Andrastian terms, especially when this refusal to do so is the source of multiple disputes between Anders and Merrill over spirits:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

Merrill: Did I ask you?

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

There is another debate over the view of spirits as spirits, and not Spirits and Demons:

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?

Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.

Varric: You can say that again.

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins--

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

I don't see why you keep insisting that it's an issue of "interpretation" when it's the crux of multiple debates between Anders and Merrill. I see no reason to ignore these cultural and religious schisms, or WoT reading that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous. As WoT reads, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes, I know about that conversation and the line in World of Thedas. I keep saying they don't prove what you keep saying they prove. That's really the crux of the disagreement here.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There really aren't ANY inconsistencies, since WoT never states that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Dalish to perform magic invovling spirits. All WoT states is that the Dalish frowns upon it basically.

[LobselVith8]

Dalish see spirits as dangerous like the Chantry sees magic as dangerous; it doesn't mean they don't ever use them. At least, that's how it seems to me.

It's mentioned in WoT: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

Elves use human language due to lacking a lot of knowledge of their own, and picking up the word "demon" and using it sometimes in reference to those spirits that are called demons by humans does not seem unreasonable. There's also a demonstrable difference in behavior patterns between demons and other spirits, as demons tend to actively want to breach the Veil.

In speaking with Andrastians, Marethari and Merrill have used Andrastian terms over Dalish ones, but I don't see that as sufficient reason to dilute the unique cultural perspective of the Dalish to make them share the same views as Andrastians; it's the entire reason Anders keeps pushing the 'Spirit' and 'Demon' distinctions on Merrill, despite her making it clear the she has her own views as one of the People. I disliked it when Anders did it, and I dislike it when some posters do the same here.

[In Exile]

The thing that struck me as odd from seeing the clan Merrill/possible warden came from vs the clan in the book was the city elf prejudice issue. It seems like the clan in the book had polar opposite views of city elves and dealing with demons. From the treatment of Feynriel and Pol in DA2, it seems that clan was actually much more accepting of not only just city elves, but even half elves, than they were of Merrill, do to her blood magic and demon contact. The clan in the book is fine with dealing with Ishmael and they hate city elves.

I suppose this can be hand-waved by previous lines in the lore that state that Dalish clans have little contact and vary widely, though.

That wasn't the clan. That was the Keeper. Merrill herself observes that humanity is a mark that half elves bear and that is held against them. So DA2 at least doesn't suggest that there isn't prejudices - just that this clan with Marethari will welcome a half-elf dreamer.

[LobselVith8]

Where did he admit to this?

I mentioned Weekes' comments on the last page. I would like to add that Weekes seems like a really nice and friendly guy. He also said we might learn one or two more theories about spirits, depending on our choice of companion. I'm guessing he might be referring to Solas.

Mages, templars, the Circles, the war and fall of the Dales, the Dalish, the view of spirits... I think we will get to a point where we will end up debating the morality of nug hunts. It's the final frontier.

[Sifr]

I chalk it up to Marethari being open-minded and less prejudiced. She's far friendlier towards Duncan and Hawke than most of her clan and was even willing to enter Kirkwall and visit the Alienage to aid Feynriel, which shows that she doesn't view Humans, City Elves, Half-Elves or even Dalish who left their clans to become City Elves like Feynriel's mother, as being beneath her.

 

She's still a Dalish Keeper, but she's remarkably tolerant all things considered, especially when you compare her with someone like Zathrian.

[In Exile]

Because it's likely a mistake, and we have more sources that stipulate otherwise? Anders is an invincible cannibal in his short story, but that's clearly not the case in the narrative of Dragon Age II. I'm not seeing why we should dismiss Merrill, World of Thedas, and even the author saying that he didn't want to get into the nuances of Dalish belief for reader convenience.

We have sources that say otherwise. We have Feynriel use the term in DA2 in reference to a warning he heard from the keeper, we have the use of the term in Masked Empire. So if we combine it with the sources mentioned, it's a pretty mixed bag. We shouldn't dismiss either source, because right now the sources are totally inconsistent.  

[In Exile]

It's mentioned in WoT: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104)

That is straight up false. Zathrian uses a magic ritual involving spirits that - among other things - makes him immortal. So unless he stole that magic from Tevinter, it's clearly elven in origin. Meaning that there is most certainly Dalish making that is precisely focused on involving spirits and creating curses. 

[LobselVith8]

We have sources that say otherwise. We have Feynriel use the term in DA2 in reference to a warning he heard from the keeper, we have the use of the term in Masked Empire. So if we combine it with the sources mentioned, it's a pretty mixed bag. We shouldn't dismiss either source, because right now the sources are totally inconsistent.

About "The Masked Empire", when this was brought up to Weekes and he was asked why the Dalish used the Andrastian term of demon, he said: "Partly because you're never in a Dalish elf's POV when it comes up -- Michel, Briala, Celene." He added: "But mostly the first one, for ease of reading. It's a complex enough issue to require more time than was available to explain."

That is straight up false. Zathrian uses a magic ritual involving spirits that - among other things - makes him immortal. So unless he stole that magic from Tevinter, it's clearly elven in origin. Meaning that there is most certainly Dalish making that is precisely focused on involving spirits and creating curses.

WoT is addressing how Dalish act by tradition. Also, Zathrian used blood magic. As the Lady of the Forest says, "This is an old forest, mortal, and I am its spirit, its heart. I was not summoned from across the Fade, but pulled from the rocks, the trees and the very soil. I was then bound into the body of the wolf who became Witherfang: not possessing a host like a sylvan or one of the undead, but bound into a single being. But such a process could not have been accomplished without Zathrian's blood... a great deal of his blood. The curse and his life... are intertwined."

[In Exile]

WoT is addressing how Dalish act by tradition. Also, Zathrian used blood magic. As the Lady of the Forest says, "This is an old forest, mortal, and I am its spirit, its heart. I was not summoned from across the Fade, but pulled from the rocks, the trees and the very soil. I was then bound into the body of the wolf who became Witherfang: not possessing a host like a sylvan or one of the undead, but bound into a single being. But such a process could not have been accomplished without Zathrian's blood... a great deal of his blood. The curse and his life... are intertwined."

 

Right, I don't disagree with you on your interpretation of WOT. I'm just saying that for WOT to be consistent with what we see in DA:O, it can't be a categorical rule that elves don't (i) ever deal with spirits (because Zathrian did) and (ii) don't have magic that relates to spirits (because Zathrian used a ritual spell to bind the spirit). The idea that elves don't have blood magic, IMO, is pretty off the mark. Especially if we follow the alternative theory that humans (and tevinters) learned magic (and blood magic) from the elves originally. 

 

 

 

About "The Masked Empire", when this was brought up to Weekes and he was asked why the Dalish used the Andrastian term of demon, he said: "Partly because you're never in a Dalish elf's POV when it comes up -- Michel, Briala, Celene." He added: "But mostly the first one, for ease of reading. It's a complex enough issue to require more time than was available to explain."

 

I'm confused. If you know this, then why object to Masked Empire? It seems like PW confirmed that your view on terminology is right. Also, thanks for the quote, because it confirms the same for me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Demon isn't an Andrastian term at all. Not only to non-Andrastians use it, but Demons refer to themselves as demons and some of them are older than the Chantry by centuries.

[LobselVith8]

I'm confused. If you know this, then why object to Masked Empire? It seems like PW confirmed that your view on terminology is right. Also, thanks for the quote, because it confirms the same for me.

It was provided by Weekes today, after this thread was created.

Demon isn't an Andrastian term at all. Not only to non-Andrastians use it, but Demons refer to themselves as demons and some of them are older than the Chantry by centuries.

In Tevinter and in the Andrastian kingdoms (regions under the Imperial and White Chantry respectively), it has cultural and religious connotations of an Andrastian nature, as evident from the codex entries on Spirits and Demons, and Anders' dialogue expressing the Andrastian nature of these terms; I'm addressing how it's presented used, and not the inception of the words.

You're welcome to read my post on the first page if you're curious, where I cited the codex entries. Also, Justice mentions that spirits are influenced by mortals, so it's not surprising they use words of the Common Tongue. It's also not evidence of anything definitive, and even Gaider has said there's no WoG about there being any definitive distinction between Spirits and Demons.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It can't be an Andrastian term if it's used by characters and kingdoms that predate Andraste. And characters like Morrigan have no reverence for Chantry theology and she learned all she did about magic and so forth from Flemeth, yet she still uses the word demons. The Qunari also use the term demons. It's used in scope far beyond just Chantry kingdoms.

[renfrees]

Well, Anders kinda proves Merril's point, and Merril kinda proves Felassan's point, consistently advising Hawke to deal with demons, but be cautious.

[Wolfen09]

imshael calls himself a spirit, he even corrects michel like 20 times...  but we all know hes a demon

[LobselVith8]

It can't be an Andrastian term if it's used by characters and kingdoms that predate Andraste. And characters like Morrigan have no reverence for Chantry theology and she learned all she did about magic and so forth from Flemeth, yet she still uses the word demons. The Qunari also use the term demons. It's used in scope far beyond just Chantry kingdoms.

It is an Andrastian term when it's loaded with cultural and religious significance to Andrastian faith. Spirits are seen as the First Children of the Maker, and Demons are seen as Spirits who spurned the Maker in jealousy over humanity, embodying different "sins". It's the reason why Anders pushes Merrill to adopt the distinctions between Spirits and Demons in several arguments, when she sees them all as spirits because she's Dalish, and not Andrastian.

You're arguing against a point that's made in several conversations between Anders and Merrill, that continually reinforces that there's a distinction between how Andrastians view Spirits and Demons, and how Dalish view them all as spirits.

This point is even made in WoT, where it can be read that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous.

Furthermore, when the use of Andrastian term "demon" was brought up to Weekes, he said it was a combination of reader convenience and the lack of a Dalish point of view in TME.

Weekes never said the Dalish make the same distinctions between Spirits and Demons as Andrastians, and given the religious debates between Anders and Merrill, and WoT specifically using spirits (and not Spirits and Demons), I don't see why you're so adamant in contesting all these sources.

Also, they are speaking the common tongue, also known as the King's Tongue; we don't know if there's a distinction in Qunlat, we don't know Morrigan's views, and none of this changes the primary point that the Dalish have their own cultural and religious views.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It is NOT Andrastian term when non Andrastians uses AND it existed before the religion. Andrastians believe some specific things about demons. But the belief that demons are a category is ABSOLUTELY NOT inherently wrapped up in Chantry belief. I don't know why this is so hard for you to believe.

 

Morrigan and refers to demons more than once in origins. Arvaraad does too. So does Sten. So does one of the Tal'Vashoth in the cave that Javaris gets Hawke to hunt. None of them believe that demons embody sins of mankind to the Maker.

 

To use another analogy, Anders debate with Merrill is sort of like it's a creationist arguing with an evolutionist. Both of them have a different explanation as to why a lion is the way it is. But neither of them deny that a Lion is a predator.  That is not based on theology or religious or cultural differences, that is based only on observation of how a demon acts.The differences are their attempts to explain why a lion is a predator.

 

Despite what you keep repeating, I'm not denying that the Dalish have a unique cultural perspective on spirits. What I'm denying is exactly what you say that difference is, because your opinion that the concept of demons is just an Andrastian term is wrong. It is a universal term. It's not that the Dalish characters used an Andrastian word. It's that Dalish and Andrastian characters are using a word that everybody uses.

 

And you know what? Even if every single reference to a Dalish character saying the word "demon" in the books and games and short stories is a mistake or an oversight, (which is so common that I don't think is the case), then it's a mistake that is so constant and pervasive that it might as well be part of the lore anyway because then this supposed Dalish view of spirits has never been conveyed properly in any case. And given the limitations of dialogue recording in Inquisition, I'm pretty sure our Dalish PCs will use the expression "demons" a lot in the game, based on how many of them I expect we will run into.

[Cainhurst Crow]

In DA2 Merril presents the idea that Dalish don't see a difference in spirits and demons and view all of them as dangerous.

 

Fellassan presents the Dalish view point as being that all spirits are dangerous and are treated like wild animals but they can be dealt with.

 

Where's the inconsistency? The above statement flows into the below statement and follows the same train of thought and logic. Seems like an extension of a statement more then a contradiction.

[LobselVith8]

It is NOT Andrastian term when non Andrastians uses AND it existed before the religion.

As I already said, I'm not debating the inception of the word, I'm addressing how it is used in the kingdoms under the Imperial Chantry and the White Chantry.

And pointing out that the distinctions are tied to Andrastian culture and the Chantry faith in present day Thedas (in the Andrastian kingdoms) is my point, but it doesn't exclude other cultures from having similar beliefs to pre-Imperial Chantry Tevinter.

Andrastians believe some specific things about demons. But the belief that demons are a category is ABSOLUTELY NOT inherently wrapped up in Chantry belief. I don't know why this is so hard for you to believe.

It's intertwined in that belief by Andrastians who follow the Andrastian faith, as the codex entries on Spirits and Demons read.

Morrigan and refers to demons more than once in origins. Arvaraad does too. So does Sten. So does one of the Tal'Vashoth in the cave that Javaris gets Hawke to hunt. None of them believe that demons embody sins of mankind to the Maker.

Qunari who are using the common tongue, and we know little about their own beliefs. Do the Qunari make a distinction between Spirits and Demons, do they see them all as demons, or is it something else entirely? I'm also not seeing how the Qunari impact the Dalish faith.

To use another analogy, Anders debate with Merrill is sort of like it's a creationist arguing with an evolutionist. Both of them have a different explanation as to why a lion is the way it is. But neither of them deny that a Lion is a predator. That is not based on theology or religious or cultural differences, that is based only on observation of how a demon acts.The differences are their attempts to explain why a lion is a predator.

Anders argues that the inhabitants of the Fade are Spirits and Demons, while Merrill says they are all spirits. That's what the two are arguing.

Anders pushes his Andrastian faith and perception on Merrill, and she refuses to acquiesce because she has her own cultural and religious beliefs.

Despite what you keep repeating, I'm not denying that the Dalish have a unique cultural perspective on spirits. What I'm denying is exactly what you say that difference is, because your opinion that the concept of demons is just an Andrastian term is wrong. It is a universal term. It's not that the Dalish characters used an Andrastian word. It's that Dalish and Andrastian characters are using a word that everybody uses.

What I dispute is your claim that the Dalish make this distinction, because it's the source of the religious debates between Anders and Merrill.

The Dalish view all spirits as dangerous. WoT also uses spirits specifically, and not Spirits and Demons when it reads about the Dalish viewpoint.

And you know what? Even if every single reference to a Dalish character saying the word "demon" in the books and games and short stories is a mistake or an oversight, (which is so common that I don't think is the case), then it's a mistake that is so constant and pervasive that it might as well be part of the lore anyway because then this supposed Dalish view of spirits has never been conveyed properly in any case. And given the limitations of dialogue recording in Inquisition, I'm pretty sure our Dalish PCs will use the expression "demons" a lot in the game, based on how many of them I expect we will run into.

Considering Weekes already said it was an issue of reader convenience and the lack of the Dalish POV, I don't see why you take an issue with it. He explained the reason why it isn't addressed in TME, and that may be the same reason elsewhere. However, it doesn't negate that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous.

Weekes didn't say the Dalish make the same distinction between Spirits and Demons, so this is getting a bit ridiculous at this point.

Last but not least, I don't see why the Dalish protagonist would use 'demon', anymore than they would say 'Maker' instead of 'the Creators'. If it was that much of an issue, we could've been limited to playing as a City Elf instead.

[dragonflight288]

I mentioned Weekes' comments on the last page. I would like to add that Weekes seems like a really nice and friendly guy. He also said we might learn one or two more theories about spirits, depending on our choice of companion. I'm guessing he might be referring to Solas.

Mages, templars, the Circles, the war and fall of the Dales, the Dalish, the view of spirits... I think we will get to a point where we will end up debating the morality of nug hunts. It's the final frontier.

 

Nug is a dwarven delicacy! If you want some, buy it from us like you do lyrium. lol. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But if the word originated before the Chantry how can it be tied to Andrastianism? The concept must have already existed by the time Chantry theology developed. Believing in the various details the Chantry believes about demons, isn't the only way one can believe there is the category of spirits known as demons.

 

In that tweet, Patrick Weeks didn't say they didn't make distinctions either.

 

We're going to be running into a lot more demons than we are going to be making religious references, I imagine. I would think the amount of dialogue that would require to be rewritten would not be considered worth it. Especially since they didn't bother in Origins or DA2 or the the Masked Empire. We aren't getting the DA2 Welsh/Irish/Scottish Dalish accents for our PCs either.

 

Also this whole insufferably repetitive and circular argument we keep having is largely about semantics, anyway.

[TK514]

Also this whole insufferably repetitive and circular argument we keep having is largely about semantics, anyway.

 

Yeah, I have to admit I don't see the problem here.

 

The Dalish say "Animals".  Everyone else says "Animals", and for convenience adds the subcategory "Predators".  I sincerely doubt that the Dalish aren't smart or observant enough to recognize that some types of Spirits are more dangerous than others, they just don't have a word for it.

 

Or, possibly, lost the word for it during their extended stay in Tevinter.