127 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah, I have to admit I don't see the problem here.

 

The Dalish say "Animals".  Everyone else says "Animals", and for convenience adds the subcategory "Predators".  I sincerely doubt that the Dalish aren't smart or observant enough to recognize that some types of Spirits are more dangerous than others, they just don't have a word for it.

 

Well, yeah this is my point almost exactly. But the gist of my argument is that they do have a word for it. Because we've seen them use it over and over and it's the same word everyone else uses for it too.

[TK514]

Well, yeah exactly. But the gist of my argument is that they do have a word for it. Because we've seen them use it over and over and it's the same word everyone else uses for it too.

 

That is somewhat curious.  I mean, it would be stretching credulity to think that the Dalish can't recognize that some types of Spirits are inherently more aggressive and malevolent than others.  Or even that most spirits don't care about the mortal world, but there is a distinct subgroup that very much do.  That they wouldn't have a native word to describe this distinction seems like an oversight, to be honest.

[LobselVith8]

That is somewhat curious. I mean, it would be stretching credulity to think that the Dalish can't recognize that some types of Spirits are inherently more aggressive and malevolent than others. Or even that most spirits don't care about the mortal world, but there is a distinct subgroup that very much do. That they wouldn't have a native word to describe this distinction seems like an oversight, to be honest.

Merrill notes that Torpor is a creature of sloth, so the Dalish understand that they all possess different characteristics, but since the People view them all as dangerous spirits, it's understandable that the Dalish don't view some of them as benevolent or good spirits.

[Lorien19]

Yeah, I have to admit I don't see the problem here.

 

The Dalish say "Animals".  Everyone else says "Animals", and for convenience adds the subcategory "Predators".  I sincerely doubt that the Dalish aren't smart or observant enough to recognize that some types of Spirits are more dangerous than others, they just don't have a word for it.

 

Or, possibly, lost the word for it during their extended stay in Tevinter.

I pretty much agree...Although they're distrustful towards any kind of spirit,I believe they can easily see that some spirits(the ones known as demons by the chantry)are far more dangerous than others.
As for the terminology around spirits and demons, I think that It has to do with their philosophy concerning the Fade and it's inhabitants.They consider it something like a foreign kingdom,like the dwarves for example,while their able to recognize that each dwarf has a different personality they'll still use the term dwarf for every individual who belongs in this particular race.Or perhaps you're right and they simply don't have a word for "demon"...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That is somewhat curious.  I mean, it would be stretching credulity to think that the Dalish can't recognize that some types of Spirits are inherently more aggressive and malevolent than others.  Or even that most spirits don't care about the mortal world, but there is a distinct subgroup that very much do.  That they wouldn't have a native word to describe this distinction seems like an oversight, to be honest.

Well the words Dalish use for things is a mixture of both human and elven expressions. For example, they call the Fade the Beyond but I think they have the same word for the Veil. And since they have the same word as humans for the catch all term of "spirits", it doesn't strike me as unlikely rhey would have the same word for sub categories too.

[TK514]

Merrill notes that Torpor is a creature of sloth, so the Dalish understand that they all possess different characteristics, but since the People view them all as dangerous spirits, it's understandable that the Dalish don't view some of them as benevolent or good spirits.

 

I didn't say anything about benevolent or good.  I'm talking about cows vs wolves.  Regardless what you call them, there are very obvious differences in behavior between Demons and other Spirits.  Most spirits are uncaring and apathetic about the mortal world.  Demons, on the other hand, are actively predatory.

 

That the elves don't have a native word to describe the actively predatory subclass seems like a huge oversight.

 

And suggesting that both types are equally dangerous is absurd.  It would be like saying a cow is the same as a wolf.  Sure, they are both dangerous under the wrong circumstances, but you have to provoke the cow while the wolf actively hunts you as food.

[LobselVith8]

I didn't say anything about benevolent or good. I'm talking about cows vs wolves. Regardless what you call them, there are very obvious differences in behavior between Demons and other Spirits. Most spirits are uncaring and apathetic about the mortal world. Demons, on the other hand, are actively predatory.

That the elves don't have a native word to describe the actively predatory subclass seems like a huge oversight.

And suggesting that both types are equally dangerous is absurd. It would be like saying a cow is the same as a wolf. Sure, they are both dangerous under the wrong circumstances, but you have to provoke the cow while the wolf actively hunts you as food.

It's varying degrees of danger, I agree, but since WoT reads that the Dalish typically avoid using magic that involves spirits, it's likely not a cause of concern for them, as opposed to the Spirit Healers of the Circles who actively deal with spirits.

[sandalisthemaker]

Each clan probably has a different view on such things. At any rate, the Dalish should really stop messing around with demons. It tends to end quite badly for them.

[TK514]

It's varying degrees of danger, I agree, but since WoT reads that the Dalish typically avoid using magic that involves spirits, it's likely not a cause of concern for them, as opposed to the Spirit Healers of the Circles who actively deal with spirits.

 

Shouldn't matter.  Elven Mages still travel the Fade like Human ones.  Still get turned into abominations like human ones.  As far as I can tell, Human and Elvish Dreamers interact with the Fade in the same way.  Even if they don't actively summon them, an Elvish Mage's life is still one full of spirit interaction.

 

When teaching a young Elvish Mage about the dangers of Spirits, there really wasn't a linguistic way to describe 'the ones that want to eat you' as a group without talking about them all?

[LobselVith8]

Shouldn't matter. Elven Mages still travel the Fade like Human ones. Still get turned into abominations like human ones. As far as I can tell, Human and Elvish Dreamers interact with the Fade in the same way. Even if they don't actively summon them, an Elvish Mage's life is still one full of spirit interaction.

I imagine viewing them all as dangerous would entail caution when entering the Beyond, as well as refusing to work with any spirit, unlike a Spirit Healer.

When teaching a young Elvish Mage about the dangers of Spirits, there really wasn't a linguistic way to describe 'the ones that want to eat you' as a group without talking about them all?

Explaining that there's no such thing as a good spirit would be a good start.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Explaining that there's no such thing as a good spirit would be a good start.

 

That still doesn't really cover the whole issue.

[LobselVith8]

That still doesn't really cover the whole issue.

Merrill cautioning Hawke on what to do when encountering Torpor would suggest that the Dalish are taught how to handle different spirits.

[sandalisthemaker]

It doesn't seem that the Dalish even heed their own advice on spirits all being dangerous since they all seem to deal with them. If Merrill believed they were all dangerous, then why would she gain rivalry if Hawke kills Torpor or the hunger demon without talking to them? Why does she gain approval if deals are made with them? 

[LobselVith8]

It doesn't seem that the Dalish even heed their own advice on spirits all being dangerous since they all seem to deal with them. If Merrill believed they were all dangerous, then why would she gain rivalry if Hawke kills Torpor or the hunger demon without talking to them? Why does she gain approval if deals are made with them?

Merrill cautions you can gain intel from a spirit without making a bargain. Hawke can gather information about the primeval thaig from the Profane Abomination, and about Feynriel's plot from Torpor, without striking a deal with either one.

You don't lose approval from Merrill if you get information from them, and then attack them.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I didn't say anything about benevolent or good.  I'm talking about cows vs wolves.  Regardless what you call them, there are very obvious differences in behavior between Demons and other Spirits.  Most spirits are uncaring and apathetic about the mortal world.  Demons, on the other hand, are actively predatory.

 

That the elves don't have a native word to describe the actively predatory subclass seems like a huge oversight.

 

And suggesting that both types are equally dangerous is absurd.  It would be like saying a cow is the same as a wolf.  Sure, they are both dangerous under the wrong circumstances, but you have to provoke the cow while the wolf actively hunts you as food.

The cows vs wolves argument is very inaccurate, imo. Spirits are absolutely not cows in comparison to wolves. They're equally powerful and equally as likely to attack mortals based on their own extremely rigid mindset. Spirits like Justice do concern themselves heavily with the dealings of mortals and their one-minded, sometimes very alien way of looking at things can easily lead to violence against individuals that we, as humans, would not see as deserving. Cows also aren't capable of becoming wolves after an indeterminate amount of time. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The cows vs wolves argument is very inaccurate, imo. Spirits are absolutely not cows in comparison to wolves. They're equally powerful and equally as likely to attack mortals based on their own extremely rigid mindset. Spirits like Justice do concern themselves heavily with the dealings of mortals and their one-minded, sometimes very alien way of looking at things can easily lead to violence against individuals that we, as humans, would not see as deserving. Cows also aren't capable of becoming wolves after an indeterminate amount of time. 

It's not a perfect analogy, but it's still apt. Most spirits don't actively searching out the mortal realm for mages like demons do. Justice only ended up getting involved in the affairs of mortals because he stumbled onto an injustice that was brought into the Fade.

[TK514]

The cows vs wolves argument is very inaccurate, imo. Spirits are absolutely not cows in comparison to wolves. They're equally powerful and equally as likely to attack mortals based on their own extremely rigid mindset. Spirits like Justice do concern themselves heavily with the dealings of mortals and their one-minded, sometimes very alien way of looking at things can easily lead to violence against individuals that we, as humans, would not see as deserving. Cows also aren't capable of becoming wolves after an indeterminate amount of time. 

 

Actually, Justice himself tells us that most Spirits don't care about mortals or the mortal world.  Even Justice spirits don't seek people out.  They are abstracts within the Fade, and content with that.  It isn't until you engage a spirit, somehow, like the one in the Mage Origin, that it takes notice of you and has to be dealt with.  Like a cow.  You have to do something to make the cow decide you need to be dealt with before it is an active threat.  As the Baroness did with Justice.  And had Justice been able to deal with the Baroness in the Fade, that would have been the end of it.  Justice would never have sought to enter the mortal realm on his own.  It held no appeal.  A demon, however, is an active hunter.  Like a wolf.  All you need to do to be in danger from either is to be in their hunting range.

 

So, yeah, the Cow vs Wolf analogy is spot on.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It's not a perfect analogy, but it's still apt. Most spirits don't actively searching out the mortal realm for mages like demons do. Justice only ended up getting involved in the affairs of mortals because he stumbled onto an injustice that was brought into the Fade.

We've had two party members that were "possessed" by spirits so far, plus strong implications that Cole is a spirit that came to the dying mage boy. Supposedly, allowing this kind of symbiosis has an entire following in Rivain. It doesn't seem all that uncommon, from our experience, for spirits to become involved with mortals. 

 

The frequency at which you might meet them seems less important than the fact that they're essentially the same creature, from what we can see. A spirit wont necessarily stay a spirit and we're not entirely sure a demon will always stay in the demon spectrum. It makes sense to treat them the same when they're essentially the same creature and can at any time begin expressing the very same qualities as what we're ascribing to the opposite. Humans can act maliciously and take pleasure in the death or pain of others, but we still consider them humans. We don't consider them another species just because we don't like their particular proclivities and trying to do so opens yourself up to a lot of danger from those you're flagging into the safe zone without any real basis other than that they're not as obviously deranged. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Actually, Justice himself tells us that most Spirits don't care about mortals or the mortal world.  Even Justice spirits don't seek people out.  They are abstracts within the Fade, and content with that.  It isn't until you engage a spirit, somehow, like the one in the Mage Origin, that it takes notice of you and has to be dealt with.  Like a cow.  You have to do something to make the cow decide you need to be dealt with before it is an active threat.  As the Baroness did with Justice.  And had Justice been able to deal with the Baroness in the Fade, that would have been the end of it.  Justice would never have sought to enter the mortal realm on his own.  It held no appeal.  A demon, however, is an active hunter.  Like a wolf.  All you need to do to be in danger from either is to be in their hunting range.

 

So, yeah, the Cow vs Wolf analogy is spot on.

The problem with the argument is the fact that basically all sources agree that demons started out as spirits. The lore suggests spirits can become corrupted simply from viewing dreams and developing desires. There's no real evidence that the only way for a spirit to become interested in the mortal world, or for them to start developing demonic tendencies, is for someone to actively meddle with them. 

 

Frequency of encountering an uncorrupted spirit isn't the point. Their frequency may make them a more rare threat, but it doesn't necessarily mean they can't be as dangerous. It doesn't mean they're less dangerous to you, personally, if you weren't the one that prodded them. A Justice spirit that takes issue with a group of people may have been convinced of the problem by an opposing mortal, but the group completely innocent of dealing with spirits or demons will still be the one dealing with their ire. It's a fact that you don't have to be the one to make contact with the spirit to be the one killed by it. 

[dragonflight288]

Also, spirits are relatively simple in that they embody a certain virtue, and everything that is good and bad about it. 

 

Like the whole concept of 'justice.' Justice as a virtue is cold, uncaring, without mercy of any kind, and is equally unforgiving of all. If you live in the mortal world, and we all do, we are all members of some sect that has wronged another, whether we did it or not. There is always going to be someone who was victimized by some group or another, and they may blame the whole group as a whole. We see this in Justice and Anders when it came to templars and the Chantry. Justice possessing Anders made him care about the justice for mages and wish to act, and all those complicit in any injustice became viable targets, whether the individuals within those groups actually did or did not involve themselves in it. And just as Anders blew up a Chantry, so too did all the mages get punished collectively as a result for a crime none of them did because it was a mage who killed the Grand Cleric. 

 

Valor in the mage origin is all about glory in battle (like Cailan) and openly advocates testing mages in skills at combat, whether against each other or him, and actively creates weapons for his 'need for combat' as he wills that need into reality. He would readily duel anyone if it meant showcasing valor and glory. Say he got sundered from the Fade and was in the real world, chances are he'd challenge everyone to a duel or engage in open combat, or encourage others to fight all in the name of valor and glory, because as a spirit of valor that is all he embodies and represents. He would be a very dangerous spirit to be let loosed into the world, even though his virtue is considered a more benevolent one. 

[myahele]

When it comes to the animal analogy I tend to see sprits as herbivores and demon as carnivores.

In the wild both are pretty dangerous, although carnivore is inherently more dangerous a herbivore protecting it's territory can be quite dangerous.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The problem with the argument is the fact that basically all sources agree that demons started out as spirits. The lore suggests spirits can become corrupted simply from viewing dreams and developing desires. There's no real evidence that the only way for a spirit to become interested in the mortal world, or for them to start developing demonic tendencies, is for someone to actively meddle with them. 

 

Frequency of encountering an uncorrupted spirit isn't the point. Their frequency may make them a more rare threat, but it doesn't necessarily mean they can't be as dangerous. It doesn't mean they're less dangerous to you, personally, if you weren't the one that prodded them. A Justice spirit that takes issue with a group of people may have been convinced of the problem by an opposing mortal, but the group completely innocent of dealing with spirits or demons will still be the one dealing with their ire. It's a fact that you don't have to be the one to make contact with the spirit to be the one killed by it. 

 

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. When Justice was asked why demons are the way they are, he says he doesn't know. All he does say about it is that "My kind and [demons] have been opposed since the beginning of time." And since Justice says that he was always the way he was (I was not born, I simply am) and that demons embody vices in such a way that even simple minded creatures can do so, I think it implies that demons have always been demons.

[dragonflight288]

When it comes to the animal analogy I tend to see sprits as herbivores and demon as carnivores.

In the wild both are pretty dangerous, although carnivore is inherently more dangerous a herbivore protecting it's territory can be quite dangerous.

 

I'm not sure this'll work as spirits can become demons by viewing the dreams of mortals and gaining a desire to experience the mortal world. 

 

What really separates a spirit from a demon is not the virtue or vice they represent but their desire to experience the mortal world through the eyes of mortals, and thus actively seek entrance into the world. 

 

But because the world is so alien to what is familiar to them, they often possess the first thing they come in contact with, be it animals to create werebeasts, trees and becoming sylvans, or even the dead, becoming a scene from the Walking Dead. 

[dragonflight288]

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. When Justice was asked why demons are the way they are, he says he doesn't know. All he does say about it is that "My kind and [demons] have been opposed since the beginning of time." And since Justice says that he was always the way he was (I was not born, I simply am) and that demons embody vices in such a way that even simple minded creatures can do so, I think it implies that demons have always been demons.

 

Except when they were once spirits. 

 

I mean, Justice became Vengeance after possessing Anders, and while he tells Ella he is no demon, he certainly doesn't act in a manner that the Chantry would consider benevolent. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

What I actually think we're seeing more all the time is that Spirits are just another race of sapient beings in the overall world of Thedas. I don't think comparing them to different species is accurate. I think the truth is that spirits are more like people than any sort of animal. They're self aware, reasoning creatures and can choose to make individual good or bad choices. They develop personal views on political issues that are introduced to them and act in morally grey ways. Dealing with a spirit is like dealing with a person. They may be trustworthy and make decisions that benefit the greater good, or they may be blood thirsty and make choices that only benefit themselves. You can't ever know which each is going to be and you can only judge them on a case by case basis.