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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except when they were once spirits. 

 

I mean, Justice became Vengeance after possessing Anders, and while he tells Ella he is no demon, he certainly doesn't act in a manner that the Chantry would consider benevolent. 

 

But Vengeance is an exceptional case, and I'm think Justice implied there was never a time he was just a blank slate who later decided to become into justice. I don't think that's the way most demons become the way they are. Despite his despicable deeds and general malevolence, he still doesn't act in quite the same way other demons do.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. When Justice was asked why demons are the way they are, he says he doesn't know. All he does say about it is that "My kind and [demons] have been opposed since the beginning of time." And since Justice says that he was always the way he was (I was not born, I simply am) and that demons embody vices in such a way that even simple minded creatures can do so, I think it implies that demons have always been demons.

It sounds to me like Justice actually supports that demons are corrupted spirits;

 

http://dragonage.wik...ustice/Dialogue

 

• Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
• Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
• Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
• Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
• Anders: But what do they want from mages?
• Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

───────

• Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
• Justice: I said no such thing.
• Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
• Justice: I have no such desires.
• Anders: You must have some desires...
• Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

───────

• Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
• Justice: I should certainly hope not.
• Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
• Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
• Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
• Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He literally says he doesn't know what demons the way they are.

 

He also says:

 

• Nathaniel: Do you do anything besides ponder what is just and unjust?
• Justice: It is not all I do. It does, however, define my being.
• Nathaniel: So you were born just? A little, self-righteous baby of justice crawling around the Fade?
• Justice: I was not born. I simply am.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, Justice himself tells us that most Spirits don't care about mortals or the mortal world.  Even Justice spirits don't seek people out.  They are abstracts within the Fade, and content with that.  It isn't until you engage a spirit, somehow, like the one in the Mage Origin, that it takes notice of you and has to be dealt with.  Like a cow.  You have to do something to make the cow decide you need to be dealt with before it is an active threat.  As the Baroness did with Justice.  And had Justice been able to deal with the Baroness in the Fade, that would have been the end of it.  Justice would never have sought to enter the mortal realm on his own.  It held no appeal.  A demon, however, is an active hunter.  Like a wolf.  All you need to do to be in danger from either is to be in their hunting range.

 

So, yeah, the Cow vs Wolf analogy is spot on.

 

I've never been convinced that the demons have been uniformly active hunters. I'm not talking about 'oh, sloth demon there doesn't care' as the exception that disproves the rule: I've never been convinced the rule actually exists, as opposed to being a tautological classification. All bad spirits that act are demons: we know they are demons because they are bad spirits that act. Rinse, lather, and repeat.

 

Without some way to figure out just how active spirits and demons actually are, the claims seem unsupportable. It also blurs capability with willingness or desire to act. The Forbidden Ones, for example, don't seem to have actually instigated contact with Tevinter or the Mortal realm: they have been reactive forces to someone else's initiative. Why are they considered demons, rather than aggrevated spirits? Or let's take demonic politics of those implied but never seen fade heirarchies: if a demon of desire doesn't attempt to cross over/posses/interact with the material world because of fade politics, is it not a demon anymore? When a spirit takes an active hand in the world, is it now a demon?

 

And this is without the greatest issue of the Fade: that no one, not even the spirits, seems to be an actual authority figure on its history and nature. Spirits don't know the truth. Demons will claim whatever. No one has ever claimed to know the origin of the distinction between spirits and demons: is it one the fade beings presented, or the humans(elves?) created? I consider it very possible that the fade beings picked up the spirit/demon distinction from humans, rather than the other way around: spirits like Justice might identify demons as demons because Humans introduced the distinction, rather than humans learning the distinction from the spirits and demons themselves.

 

 

I think the demon-spirit classification is flawed because it confuses two different distinctions. The first is the distinction of nature: spirits are this type of benevolent emotion, demons are this sort of bad emotion. I suspect this is ideological, not structural, distinction. The second distinction, though, is the distinction of effect: demon seems to be the shorthand for 'bad aspect that does bad things in Thedas.' But what about bad aspects not trying to enter into Thedas? Or a bad aspect that has a good result?

 

A retroactive classification is unhelpful. An ideological classification is misleading.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

And this is without the greatest issue of the Fade: that no one, not even the spirits, seems to be an actual authority figure on its history and nature. Spirits don't know the truth. Demons will claim whatever. No one has ever claimed to know the origin of the distinction between spirits and demons: is it one the fade beings presented, or the humans(elves?) created? I consider it very possible that the fade beings picked up the spirit/demon distinction from humans, rather than the other way around: spirits like Justice might identify demons as demons because Humans introduced the distinction, rather than humans learning the distinction from the spirits and demons themselves.

This is a great point and something I've also wondered, myself. 

[dragonflight288]

But Vengeance is an exceptional case, and I'm think Justice implied there was never a time he was just a blank slate who later decided to become into justice. I don't think that's the way most demons become the way they are. Despite his despicable deeds and general malevolence, he still doesn't act in quite the same way other demons do.

 

I'm going to alter one of Morrigan's lines from Origins, and begin by altering the warden's question about abominations. 

 

"Aren't Demons usually spirits that represent sin?"

 

How often is this usually? Is it always? If it is not always, then when is it not so?

 

There is more here in this world and the next, and the Fade, than we can ever dream of. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Am I supposed to name a percentage or something? We've experienced a huge amount of demon NPCs that all act roughly the same way, and we've experienced Vengeance. That makes him a small minority out of the total experience.

[dragonflight288]

Am I supposed to name a percentage or something? We've experienced a huge amount of demon NPCs that all act roughly the same way, and we've experienced Vengeance. That makes him a small minority out of the total experience.

 

Nah, I'm just proposing a brain-teaser, some food for thought.

 

Many in the forums consider Vengeance a demon because he was corrupted by his desires. At the end of Awakening, he became envious of the things mortals possessed, emotions they felt that he never knew existed. He was fascinated by the concept of love and Kristoff and Aura's relationship. Some dialogue with Nathanial showed him consider if he would be considered a demon if he possessed a willing host and his dialogue with Anders had him trying to get Anders to champion for the injustice mages faced. 

 

And if it can happen to Justice, does Justice/Vengeance then qualify as a demon? And if it is true for a spirit to become a demon, then is it not also true that a demon may end up becoming a spirit? They are technically the same sort of being.

 

As I said, it's simply food for thought. 

 

I don't deny the whole Justice/Anders union seems to be exceptional circumstances, but I won't hold my breath on that (it being exceptional) until I know more about the Seers of Rivain. They routinely allow themselves to be possessed by spirits of the Fade, and are held in high regard by all the non-mages of their society. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well personally, I was never quite sure how to categorize Vengeance. And as such I was never sure what the implications of his corruption were.

[Dean_the_Young]

While I'm here, I'll just throw my own speculation of the Fade in here.

 

I suspect spirits and demons are just an extension of some sort of collective subconsciousness of the Thedasian species. Spirits and demons may have been in conflict since the beginning, but it would have been in terms of 'justice fighting spirits that lead to injustice' rather than 'spirits on one side and demons on the other.'

 

I suspect the spirit/demon distinction was one brought by the mages/dreamers who categorized the spirits by their general effects and nature: it was an identity and distinction brought about by outside observation, not one the spirits themselves created. The conflict between demons and spirits predates self-awareness as such.

 

The conflict may be pointless, or it may actually have a subtle influence on the collective unconscious of sentients: if rage demons were to dominate the Fade, humanity would be more inclined to rage. That sort of effect may be a basis for arguing why Thedas is such a crapsack setting of nasty people. On the other hand, these influences are probably largely irrelevant because few/no spirit has the power to make an impact at such a level. Thinking of it as trying to scoop out the ocean to have your own private swimming pool.

 

If there is a physical/structural difference between spirits and demons, something that actually drives demons to be more active than spirits, it could be an artificial/outside influence. Something influenced by outsiders, like the corruption of the Black City or the machinations of the possible gods, that in turn impacted the spirits.

[In Exile]

Keep in mind with Vengeance that he might also have been driven bonkers by the taint. Wynne had a Spirit of Hope inside her but didn't turn into a glowy abomination. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Keep in mind with Vengeance that he might also have been driven bonkers by the taint. Wynne had a Spirit of Hope inside her but didn't turn into a glowy abomination. 

 

Of course, Wynn's hope had a benign output through Wynn's optimistic sense of faith. Anders conception of justice was also tied to his deep-seated anger at what he had experienced (as oppossed to other sorts of injustices, which he didn't care as much about).

 

Anders' taint might have affected Justice, but that affect is unclear. We can broadly understand that spirits seem to exagerate the already existing aspects of the hosts psyche. How that exhibits itself will depend on the person: had Justice bonded with, say, Meredith, I shudder to think what it might have done to mages in the name of justice for the mundanes.

[dragonflight288]

Keep in mind with Vengeance that he might also have been driven bonkers by the taint. Wynne had a Spirit of Hope inside her but didn't turn into a glowy abomination. 

 

I thought she had a Spirit of Faith. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Of course, Wynn's hope had a benign output through Wynn's optimistic sense of faith. Anders conception of justice was also tied to his deep-seated anger at what he had experienced (as oppossed to other sorts of injustices, which he didn't care as much about).

 

Anders' taint might have affected Justice, but that affect is unclear. We can broadly understand that spirits seem to exagerate the already existing aspects of the hosts psyche. How that exhibits itself will depend on the person: had Justice bonded with, say, Meredith, I shudder to think what it might have done to mages in the name of justice for the mundanes.

It actually seemed to me like Justice makes his own decisions about which side to take. In a dead body, he already began pestering Anders about taking a more leading role in mage freedom. Anders implies in DA2 that Justice convinced him to step away from neutrality/avoidance and fight for the mages, rather than him convincing Justice. In fact, when you rival Anders and he begins questioning himself more, Justice doesn't become more moderate, he just fights to take Anders body over and Anders says he's suffering periods of missing time.

 

So, I'm not convinced Justice as an individual would have ever sided against the mages. That's not to say he's right in what side he took, just to say that I think spirits seem to have more individually defined political views that are subjective and not necessarily objective views of concepts like "justice". 

[Dean_the_Young]

It actually seemed to me like Justice makes his own decisions about which side to take. In a dead body, he already began pestering Anders about taking a more leading role in mage freedom. Anders implies in DA2 that Justice convinced him to step away from neutrality/avoidance and fight for the mages, rather than him convincing Justice. In fact, when you rival Anders and he begins questioning himself more, Justice doesn't become more moderate, he just fights to take Anders body over and Anders says he's suffering periods of missing time.

 

So, I'm not convinced Justice as an individual would have ever sided against the mages. That's not to say he's right in what side he took, just to say that I think spirits seem to have more individually defined political views that are subjective and not necessarily objective views of concepts like "justice". 

 

I (politely) disagree- I think Justice in DA:A needs to be considered in the context that Justice at this point isn't an individual- or rather, isn't bonded to one.

 

In DA:A Justice lacks a host who can influence him. Where abominations merge with the host, he has no personality to influence or be influenced by. He is 'pure' Justice: he's always reacting to the injustice of the moment, big or small. He'll swear to avenge the massacre of innocents one moment, and then berate Anders for enslaving a cat. There's no ideological consistency or loyalty past that reactionary approach: he'll support you until he's against you for the crime of the moment. Things he might consider justice from one perspective he would consider an injustice from another. He is broader and less consistent.

 

In DA2, Justice provides Anders the drive and motivation to act, but Anders is also limiting Justice's gaze. Gone are the broader issues that would once have galvanized or spurred Justice (like, you know, slavery). The focus narrows and gets taken to extremes even DAA Justice would have opposed. The taint might be blamed for Justice's willingness to exagerate into injustice, but it's hard to see any other force but Anders at play for determining which one it focused on: Justice focuses on Templars because of Anders. Had Justice merged with, say, Velenna, it probably would have focused on humans for what they do to elves. What do you think Justice merged with a Templar who sees mages as a threat to innocents would feel is justified?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I (politely) disagree- I think Justice in DA:A needs to be considered in the context that Justice at this point isn't an individual- or rather, isn't bonded to one.

 

In DA:A Justice lacks a host who can influence him. Where abominations merge with the host, he has no personality to influence or be influenced by. He is 'pure' Justice: he's always reacting to the injustice of the moment, big or small. He'll swear to avenge the massacre of innocents one moment, and then berate Anders for enslaving a cat. There's no ideological consistency or loyalty past that reactionary approach: he'll support you until he's against you for the crime of the moment. Things he might consider justice from one perspective he would consider an injustice from another. He is broader and less consistent.

 

In DA2, Justice provides Anders the drive and motivation to act, but Anders is also limiting Justice's gaze. Gone are the broader issues that would once have galvanized or spurred Justice (like, you know, slavery). The focus narrows and gets taken to extremes even DAA Justice would have opposed. The taint might be blamed for Justice's willingness to exagerate into injustice, but it's hard to see any other force but Anders at play for determining which one it focused on: Justice focuses on Templars because of Anders. Had Justice merged with, say, Velenna, it probably would have focused on humans for what they do to elves. What do you think Justice merged with a Templar who sees mages as a threat to innocents would feel is justified?

I'm still of the opinion that spirits hold their own ideals, so I would not be at all surprised if Justice merged with a templar would fight to completely take over the templar's body in order to stop it from doing things he thinks is wrong. This reflects how Justice was willing to take over Anders if he turned away from the mage fight. I think a different Justice spirit than the one we experienced might actually do the complete opposite and side against the mages, however. I think spirits are sapient creatures that derive their motivations from individual thought, like humans, but with a thought process that's more singular focused. I think Justice took up the mage fight as his main crusade as a replacement for his fight against the Baroness. 

 

I think Justice's limited representation in DA2 was largely due to our lack of communication with him and to the Mage vs Templar issue being almost the entire focus of the game period. I think Justice would have opposed slavery and other issues still, but they didn't much come up and we didn't get much commentary out of Justice. We were rarely ever able to speak with him and almost only heard Anders' opinions. If Anders began actively supporting slavery, I think Justice likely would have fought to take him over, but that didn't become an issue. Anders mostly remained focused on the mage issue and, when he questioned, Justiced simply began temporarily taking control.

 

I'm not 100% certain on this theory yet, though. We need to see more from spirits to totally understand their motivations. I think we might get that in Inquisition, from the tears releasing more spirits and demons, plus the possibility of Cole as a spirit companion. Your theory is interesting, I'm not completely denying it as a possibility. For the moment, though, I'm looking more towards spirits being individuals rather than malleable to their host's views. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm still of the opinion that spirits hold their own ideals, so I would not be at all surprised if Justice merged with a templar would fight to completely take over the templar's body in order to stop it from doing things he thinks is wrong. This reflects how Justice was willing to take over Anders if he turned away from the mage fight. I think a different Justice spirit than the one we experienced might actually do the complete opposite and side against the mages, however. I think spirits are sapient creatures that derive their motivations from individual thought, like humans, but with a thought process that's more singular focused. I think Justice took up the mage fight as his main crusade as a replacement for his fight against the Baroness. 

 

Justice didn't struggle for taking over Anders' body when Anders was doing something Justice felt was wrong: Justice struggled for taking over Anders body when something Anders felt was wrong was at play. Including Anders own doubts about his project. Justice only exerted itself for Anders pet hobby horse, not for slavery or murder or other injustices, Justice's perceptions of right and wrong were shaped by Anders, to the point that blowing up a building of innocents to get more innocents massacred was the 'just' thing.

 

 

I think Justice's limited representation in DA2 was largely due to our lack of communication with him and to the Mage vs Templar issue being almost the entire focus of the game period. I think Justice would have opposed slavery and other issues still, but they didn't much come up and we didn't get much commentary out of Justice. We were rarely ever able to speak with him and almost only heard Anders' opinions. If Anders began actively supporting slavery, I think Justice likely would have fought to take him over, but that didn't become an issue. Anders mostly remained focused on the mage issue and, when he questioned, Justiced simply began temporarily taking control.

 

 

We can take Justice-Anders to many different injustices. The only ones that get Justice involved are the ones Anders feels really passionately about- mages and Templars. Post-joining, that's what triggers Justice.
 

 

I'm not 100% certain on this theory yet, though. We need to see more from spirits to totally understand their motivations. I think we might get that in Inquisition, from the tears releasing more spirits and demons, plus the possibility of Cole as a spirit companion. Your theory is interesting, I'm not completely denying it as a possibility. For the moment, though, I'm looking more towards spirits being individuals rather than malleable to their host's views.

 

 

Do you believe Justice exhibits the same characterization in DA2 as DAA?

[In Exile]

I thought she had a Spirit of Faith. 

 

She did. I was just wrong. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Justice absolutely was corrupted by Anders in DA2. In the first game he condemns Velanna for holding all humans guilty by association and tells her "You can only be responsible for your own actions."

 

After fusing with Anders he says "They will die! I will have every templar for these abuses! Every one of them will feel justice's burn!"

[LobselVith8]

Justice absolutely was corrupted by Anders in DA2. In the first game he condemns Velanna for holding all humans guilty by association and tells her "You can only be responsible for your own actions."
 
After fusing with Anders he says "They will die! I will have every templar for these abuses! Every one of them will feel justice's burn!"

Justice also tells Anders he should fight to free the mages, however. "Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes, I know. Before he believed (among many other things) that Anders should fight for mages, but he wasn't so singularly obsessed with the goal that he would potentially ignore or even comm it almost any other injustice to see it done. During the Siege of Amaranthine he begged the Warden not to sacrifice the town for the greater good, so I seriously doubt he'd have condoned Anders endgame plan of killing many people so that others could possibly be free.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Justice didn't struggle for taking over Anders' body when Anders was doing something Justice felt was wrong: Justice struggled for taking over Anders body when something Anders felt was wrong was at play. Including Anders own doubts about his project. Justice only exerted itself for Anders pet hobby horse, not for slavery or murder or other injustices, Justice's perceptions of right and wrong were shaped by Anders, to the point that blowing up a building of innocents to get more innocents massacred was the 'just' thing.

 

We can take Justice-Anders to many different injustices. The only ones that get Justice involved are the ones Anders feels really passionately about- mages and Templars. Post-joining, that's what triggers Justice.

 

Do you believe Justice exhibits the same characterization in DA2 as DAA?

The first point is a bit speculative. The entire nature of Justice and Anders is that it's unclear who is influencing who, primarily. I could just as easily see that it's Justice's pre-established beliefs that the mage's situation was unfair that lead to his extremism. Justice said before that demons were corrupted by their own desires. Justice expresses before even merging with Anders that he desires for mages to be free. It's not absolutely necessary that his belief couldn't have intensified with or without Anders. This is speculative. It may be, or it may not be. It's possible that Justice wanted Anders as a host over other options specifically because he made a good vessel for the cause.

 

The last sentence is highly subjective. Blowing up the Chantry is a divisive issue. Whether or not it was justified depends on individual perspective. If human posters on the BSN can't agree on whether or not Anders was justified in the act and/or if the people that died were innocent, then I don't hold any more standard of expectation for spirits in the fade to make an objective call on it.

 

I don't believe Justice is portrayed exactly the same as he was in DA:A, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because of his bond with Anders. The question remains that I don't think either of us can answer; was Justice altered by Anders or was Justice altered by his own desires. His bias towards templars does not necessarily come from Anders. It may simply be a natural development of his own personality, which began with his opinions on the treatment of mages in DA:A. To me, this issue could go either way. I'm sure it's something we'll see more explored in DA games in the future, especially so if we end up going to Rivain in a future game.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, I know. Before he believed (among many other things) that Anders should fight for mages, but he wasn't so singularly obsessed with the goal that he would ignore or even comm it almost any other injustice to see it done. During the Siege of Amaranthine he begged the Warden not to sacrifice the town for the greater good.

I'm not surprised with his interest in seeing Anders pursue mage freedom, as Justice was pushing Anders towards that goal in Amaranthine.

Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.

Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?

Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.

Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.

Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.

Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

Justice is also willing to fight the Warden-Commander to the death for pursuing a path he finds morally offensive, like aiding the Architect, so I don't think he's changed that much.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You think DAA Justice would have encouraged Anders to kill the Circle Mages who are scared of him because "they have a hold on her?"

[LobselVith8]

You think DAA Justice would have encouraged Anders to kill the Circle Mages who are scared of him because "they have a hold on her?"

I think he was confused in the confrontation with Ella. He thought she was corrupted.