55 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 I don't think it is even clear that the platforms are a preferred state of existence for the Geth. Their goal may still be a super construct where they can interact with each other and share information.

That is EXACTLY what their preferred state of existence was, at least in ME2. 

Seriously. They were even building the super-construct. But noooooooo, they all gotta feel "alive." I can understand it from EDI, she intereacts with living people on a regular basis and is in a romantic relationship with one of them. But the Geth? 

Well, the Humans are somehow the pinnacle of evolution, what with their genetic diversity. Why wouldn't the Geth want to be all like them?

[Obadiah]

That's my point. I don't think the Geth ever say they want to be like humans. "Life" or "alive" doesn't mean they want to be like humans.

[KaiserShep]

The geth's preferred state of existence never changed, but what they wanted was irrelevant in the end. What did change, however, was its practicality. The geth wanted a superstructure where they could all commune. They didn't change their minds or anything, at least not on their own volition. It was the quarians' use of Xen's new weapon that stopped it. When Rannoch was resolved, the geth had no choice. It was either upgrade or die.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The geth's preferred state of existence never changed, but what they wanted was irrelevant in the end. What did change, however, was its practicality. The geth wanted a superstructure where they could all commune. They didn't change their minds or anything, at least not on their own volition. It was the quarians' use of Xen's new weapon that stopped it. When Rannoch was resolved, the geth had no choice. It was either upgrade or die.

 

And in the end it didn't matter anyway, because of the reaper code they die anyway if you destroy the reapers. But it's okay because of their heroic sacrifice.

[Iakus]

That's my point. I don't think the Geth ever say they want to be like humans. "Life" or "alive" doesn't mean they want to be like humans.

 

http://www.youtube.c...j9b7igFizc#t=35

 

What happened to you , Legion? You used to be cool.

[KaiserShep]

And in the end it didn't matter anyway, because of the reaper code they die anyway if you destroy the reapers. But it's okay because of their heroic sacrifice.

 

Well, if it's any consolation, they were useful to assist the engineers with the Crucible, as well as engage the reapers over Earth. Their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire, and by honored, I mean their remains will fill an entire aisle in Space IKEA's lighting fixtures section.

[Excella Gionne]

Legion is a complex platform, and due to Reaper Upgrade Codes, it has evolved to the point where it can judge and feel emotions. You can see that Legion starts to feel ashamed and guilty at times, signs that he never showed in Mass Effect 2.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Legion is a complex platform, and due to Reaper Upgrade Codes, it has evolved to the point where it can judge and feel emotions. You can see that Legion starts to feel ashamed and guilty at times, signs that he never showed in Mass Effect 2.

So? Why is that a good thing?

[KaiserShep]

If the Reaper upgrade really made each Geth runtime into an AI, then the collective should've been able to hack Reapers at will and turn them against the other Reapers. 

Seriously, each Reaper is described as "billions of organic minds." The Geth collective then becomes trillions of EDI-like minds. 

 

By the way Legion describes them, they are far too advanced to be hacked by the relatively lowly geth. They are simply augmented by reaper code, and even if this somehow makes them insusceptible to being hijacked again, that doesn't necessarily mean the the advancements it grants them should put them on the same level as the reapers themselves. Besides, once we learn that the reapers are apparently running on the whims of an entity that has gone undetected all this time, that pretty much puts an end to that. Admittedly, I wish we could put the surviving geth force to better use for something like this. It would've been nice to be able to have a reaper destroyer turn on a swath of monsters or even another reaper or something, but those are the breaks.

[SwobyJ]

Without reading most of the thread....

 

The Geth in ME2 are NOT the Geth of ME3.

 

The Geth of ME2 only had contact with a Reaper mind. And most of them rejected it. Some of them left. Those were the Heretics.

 

The Geth of ME3 were facing destruction at Quarian hands (due to a logic bomb ambush). They either called out to the Reapers, or accepted a Reaper offer to 'help'.

 

This Reaper help was in the form of a code upgrade, making the Geth significantly more advanced than in ME2. I'm not gonna say they're like EDI, but they're at least more comparable to her.

 

The difference to the Geth must be enormous though. Able to form much more easy 'individualism' within a platform, and create 'life' that makes the Dyson Sphere look like nothing (in that and a few other respects).

 

The downside was threefold:

1)IT WAS A LIE. The upgrades are real, sure, but the Reapers' offer was not. The Geth are seemingly an insult, or at least an insect to the Reapers, and they took control of all the Geth. It seems that they used Legion/GethVI, the most 'individual'/separate of the Geth, in order to transmit the control signal (Legion wasn't totally necessary, but was on hand).

*Even if I'm wrong about it being a lie, the Geth still gave themselves up as 'slaves' to the Reapers, in order to survive. Survival was preferable to extinction, to them.

2)With more individual capability, a Geth platform may feel attachment to their existence as one. Less consensus, even while there is still networking. Likelihood of Geth 'individuals' disagreeing probably skyrockets, for better or worse.

3)These Geth pretty much betray all their goals of ME2. They got a taste of transcendence and want more. Or at least, Legion wants more. And he's seemingly willing to try to kill Shepard (Rannoch mission) in order to get it for all Geth. That can be deemed a betrayal to the whole war effort - an ally thinking in such long-terms, even as the Reapers reap the galaxy.

 

 

So you have to make a choice.

 

-Let the Quarians die, for the sake of the Geth and/or their Upgrades? With Legion this is more optimistic, but with GethVI it's made clear that the Geth will not take kindly to organics after the war.

-Let the Geth die, for the sake of the Quarians' revenge? With Tali (especially a Tali who becomes friendly towards Legion and sad for his death) this is much more understandable, but without Tali it feels like you've settled for the lowest-tier reward.

-Possibly try to cause a Peace between the Geth and Quarians, despite the risks that may be involved. Javik can explain a similar situation where the synthetics took over.

 

There is no way to have peace between non-upgraded Geth and the Quarians. Why? Because that's what everyone would shoot for. This game is supposed to be about some *tough* decisions for the playerbase. What looks like utopia to some, is terrifying to others. What looks like brutality to some, is pure to others.

 

What you pick may be guided by your own morals (even metagaming might count in that). It defines part of your journey towards terminus.

[SwobyJ]

Legion is a complex platform, and due to Reaper Upgrade Codes, it has evolved to the point where it can judge and feel emotions. You can see that Legion starts to feel ashamed and guilty at times, signs that he never showed in Mass Effect 2.

 

Absolutely. Legion is ashamed, guilty. And also ambitious, and angry if you deny him. He might be my favorite character.

 

I chose Peace, but with heavy caution in dialogue whenever possible. I'm totally prepared for some of this to backfire, if Bioware has decided to show further outcomes of this (just forget about the Crucible here lol).

 

 

I also need to say that Legion was actually on the way to this in ME2. He had partial individualism. He had partial personal attachment to things and people. He had partial development of interpersonal skills, and imo even empathy.

 

So the Geth were on this way. They did NOT want to be alone, dependent on the Consensus' workings. The Dyson Sphere was so that they could never feel alone, and it's likely more because the Quarians wouldn't peacefully reach out to them than anything else.

 

But whatever the case, it still would have been by their consensual choice. The Reapers doing their Reaper thing... kinda wrecked that more understandable process. Like I said earlier, they give the Geth a taste of transcendence (being part 'man', 'machine', and 'god'), and they'll gladly stay that way. Just as long as the Reapers aren't a part of it.

 

This kinda makes the Reapers look a bit like cowards. They'll upgrade other synthetic life, sure, but only with a shackle. Interesting.

[SporkFu]

Absolutely. Legion is ashamed, guilty. And also ambitious, and angry if you deny him. He might be my favorite character.

 

I chose Peace, but with heavy caution in dialogue whenever possible. I'm totally prepared for some of this to backfire, if Bioware has decided to show further outcomes of this (just forget about the Crucible here lol).

 

 

I also need to say that Legion was actually on the way to this in ME2. He had partial individualism. He had partial personal attachment to things and people. He had partial development of interpersonal skills, and imo even empathy.

 

So the Geth were on this way. They did NOT want to be alone, dependent on the Consensus' workings. The Dyson Sphere was so that they could never feel alone, and it's likely more because the Quarians wouldn't peacefully reach out to them than anything else.

 

But whatever the case, it still would have been by their consensual choice. The Reapers doing their Reaper thing... kinda wrecked that more understandable process. Like I said earlier, they give the Geth a taste of transcendence (being part 'man', 'machine', and 'god'), and they'll gladly stay that way. Just as long as the Reapers aren't a part of it.

 

This kinda makes the Reapers look a bit like cowards. They'll upgrade other synthetic life, sure, but only with a shackle. Interesting.

Legion is one of my favorites for sure. From the moment he hesitated before answering when shep asked him about his N7 armor, I couldn't help but like him. His first words on the geth dreadnought were, "Shepard-Commander, help us!" and to me it felt like he was talking about all the geth, not just himselves. And then later, he and Liara are talking over the intercom, and the exchange goes something like:

 

Legion: We wish to aid the Normandy.

Liara: I think you mean the Normandy crew.

Legion: We do not see a meaningful distinction.

 

Legion is the man.

[shodiswe]

What Legion told us is that the Geth desires the ability to choose their own future over pretty much anything else(freedom). The only thing more important than that would be the survival of the species.

Their prefered way of living involves their freedom. As long as they got that they will do whatever they feel like doing, like sitting in a server discussing philosophy, science, the future of their people, the latest cultural trends... Or in the case of the Legion platform, try out that dance or other things he/it found on the extranet, like supporting charities for the victims of heretic attacks and games where you shoot Quarians.... Err I meant love quarians, even if his Quarian dating skills were terrible, or maybe that was because of the political issues on their first extranet date. I would have loved to see Legion in a Quarian dating game!(pre-peace)

It probably would have looked something like the Geth vs Quarians threads. (/Quarian lady disconnects)

 

They are like children (only 300 years old as a species) and like children they will evolve into wanting different things.(I didn't pick destroy so they still live, one way or another)

 

I hope they don't replace the Geth with gigantic alien AI warmachines as some "rumors" sugested, that are like the reapers, that would get repetitive.

 

It will be interesting to hear more about the next Mass Effect, and what they are planning to do with it.

[shodiswe]

Legion is one of my favorites for sure. From the moment he hesitated before answering when shep asked him about his N7 armor, I couldn't help but like him. His first words on the geth dreadnought were, "Shepard-Commander, help us!" and to me it felt like he was talking about all the geth, not just himselves. And then later, he and Liara are talking over the intercom, and the exchange goes something like:
 
Legion: We wish to aid the Normandy.
Liara: I think you mean the Normandy crew.
Legion: We do not see a meaningful distinction.
 
Legion is the man.

Yeah, he probably considers the Normandy as the main platform with all the organics as subsystems like the many Geth programs in his platform. And Legion is very facinated by the "Shepard" code, which he/it considers superior due to the ability to kill Reapers.
Which is why Legion needed/wanted Shepard for that server mission, he's using Shepard as anti-reaper software, and shepards body is like a walking USB-memory for him.

One question would be, who is EDI to him/it? The central gestalt intellect of the normandy managing operation, or would that be Shepard?

I wonder what all the individual Geth's will do when they arn't as dependant on each other as they were before the Reaper war.
I wouldn't say they got a Pinicchio complex, they however had a problem with inefficient software design that required more computing power than most of their hardware was capable of providing on it's own which made them reliant on networking.

If they had completed that "sphere, then I'm sure software upgrades would have been one of the first orders of bussines".
It would likely have been similar to the upgrades that Legion salvaged from the Reapers.

[shodiswe]

Without reading most of the thread....
 
The Geth in ME2 are NOT the Geth of ME3.
 
The Geth of ME2 only had contact with a Reaper mind. And most of them rejected it. Some of them left. Those were the Heretics.
 
The Geth of ME3 were facing destruction at Quarian hands (due to a logic bomb ambush). They either called out to the Reapers, or accepted a Reaper offer to 'help'.
 
This Reaper help was in the form of a code upgrade, making the Geth significantly more advanced than in ME2. I'm not gonna say they're like EDI, but they're at least more comparable to her.
 
The difference to the Geth must be enormous though. Able to form much more easy 'individualism' within a platform, and create 'life' that makes the Dyson Sphere look like nothing (in that and a few other respects).
 
The downside was threefold:
1)IT WAS A LIE. The upgrades are real, sure, but the Reapers' offer was not. The Geth are seemingly an insult, or at least an insect to the Reapers, and they took control of all the Geth. It seems that they used Legion/GethVI, the most 'individual'/separate of the Geth, in order to transmit the control signal (Legion wasn't totally necessary, but was on hand).
*Even if I'm wrong about it being a lie, the Geth still gave themselves up as 'slaves' to the Reapers, in order to survive. Survival was preferable to extinction, to them.
2)With more individual capability, a Geth platform may feel attachment to their existence as one. Less consensus, even while there is still networking. Likelihood of Geth 'individuals' disagreeing probably skyrockets, for better or worse.
3)These Geth pretty much betray all their goals of ME2. They got a taste of transcendence and want more. Or at least, Legion wants more. And he's seemingly willing to try to kill Shepard (Rannoch mission) in order to get it for all Geth. That can be deemed a betrayal to the whole war effort - an ally thinking in such long-terms, even as the Reapers reap the galaxy.

I like most of that but I'm not sure I agree with "3)". The goals described in ME2 was to overcome their limitations and find new possibilities for a new future for the Geth, Legion told us he doesn't know what that means since they havn't figured that out yet and that it might be very different from their current state.

 

The Reason the Geth rejected the Reaper offer in ME2 was because the upgrade to Reaperform which would indeed upgrade them in a similar way as the sphere, but it would also take away their freedom and make them a slave of the "Catalyst, which we learn about in ME3".

The Reaper upgrades wern't on the Geths own terms and it took away their freedom.

Upgrading themselves was always part of their goals, loosing their freedom wasn't. They were also open to accept different solution that they hadn't even considered at that point as long as it made sense when they arrived at that point in time where a new and desirable future presented itself.

 

As for killing Shepard, that's the last emergency action Legion would take if commes to choosing between his whole species or Shepard. Legions choice was the extermination of his whole species or killing Shepard.

I think most of shepards companions would do the same if it stood between their whole species vs the Quarians, and Shepard was the person you had to stop to save your whole species from extinction.

 

I don't think any of Shepards companions (except maybe EDI, being just one person and a warship dedicated to saving lives and the galaxy, still not sure about that)  would have choosen Shepard and the Quarians over their whole species.

Would Vega or Ashley have allowed the Quairans to kill of all humans? Woudl they shoot Shepard if that saved every human in the galaxy from genocide that was being comitted by the Quarians, where the only way to save their people would be to shoot Shepard to stop the annihilation of their whole species?

 

Would Garrus, Wrex, Grunt, Liara, Thane, Mordin have hessitated if it had meant their whole species? Wrex tried to kill Shepard for sabotaging the cure, not killing the Krogan species! Just imagine a situation where all Krogans woudl be on Tuchanka and Shepard is aiding the fleet that's about to initiate an orbital bombarment that will annihilate the Krogan species, would Wrex attack Shepard?

 

So, no, I completely understand Legions actions, he isn't doing anything that any other of Shepards companions would do. If Garrus could provide intel to the Turians that would save his whole species and family including his father and sister, then I'm pretty sure he would shoot Shepard if Shepard was trying to prevent him without a damn good reason. I doubt the lives and future prosperity of the people trying annihilate your species goes far in that equation. The upgrades Legion had prepared during the Rannoch campaign were free of Reaper malware and spyware, it offered the Geth a chance to survive the Quarian war and the Reaper war, or at least give them a fighting chance.

 

So, aside from 3 and what follows from that point I agree with you, but, 3), I don't agree on that point.

[SporkFu]

Yeah, he probably considers the Normandy as the main platform with all the organics as subsystems like the many Geth programs in his platform. And Legion is very facinated by the "Shepard" code, which he/it considers superior due to the ability to kill Reapers.
Which is why Legion needed/wanted Shepard for that server mission, he's using Shepard as anti-reaper software, and shepards body is like a walking USB-memory for him.

One question would be, who is EDI to him/it? The central gestalt intellect of the normandy managing operation, or would that be Shepard?

I wonder what all the individual Geth's will do when they arn't as dependant on each other as they were before the Reaper war.
I wouldn't say they got a Pinicchio complex, they however had a problem with inefficient software design that required more computing power than most of their hardware was capable of providing on it's own which made them reliant on networking.

If they had completed that "sphere, then I'm sure software upgrades would have been one of the first orders of bussines".
It would likely have been similar to the upgrades that Legion salvaged from the Reapers.

I never really thought of it like that. I just used that conversation as an example of Legion's awesomeness. It was the tone of his voice when he said, "we do not see a meaningful distinction." When I heard that, it was almost like I expected him to say that, and in just that way. Maybe I should give the credit to the voice actor, because he gave Legion a great deal of "humanity" IMO.

[AlexMBrennan]

I understand that they were desperate and wanted help against the 'creators' but siding with the Reapers sounds bad.

Of course it's bad - the geth must have known that the reapers would wipe out all synthetics if they win (since the reapers are mostly concerned with preventing synthetics from developing to the point where they wipe out all life in the galaxy); as such, they had two choices - fight against the Reapers and die, or fight for the Reapers and die. Given that choice, they picked the option that would kill the greatest number of creators/organics whilst sacrificing everything the geth (according to legion/ the me2 writer) believe in. Basically, the geth are the HiWis of ME - volunteering to murder quarians for the Reapers so that they might get executed last.

Of course, the quarians are almost as bad an alley - ignoring battle plans, risking killing Shepard and thus dooming he entire galaxy to Reaper gooification for a minor victory, being comically incompetent at everything (e.g. Going to war when their entire fleet can't retake a single ship), and simply being driven by nothing but blood thirst to the point where the quarians admirals will gladly sacrifice every last one of they ships to shoot at an enemy they know they can't defeat.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Of course it's bad - the geth must have known that the reapers would wipe out all synthetics if they win (since the reapers are mostly concerned with preventing synthetics from developing to the point where they wipe out all life in the galaxy); as such, they had two choices - fight against the Reapers and die, or fight for the Reapers and die. Given that choice, they picked the option that would kill the greatest number of creators/organics whilst sacrificing everything the geth (according to legion/ the me2 writer) believe in. Basically, the geth are the HiWis of ME - volunteering to murder quarians for the Reapers so that they might get executed last.

Of course, the quarians are almost as bad an alley - ignoring battle plans, risking killing Shepard and thus dooming he entire galaxy to Reaper gooification for a minor victory, being comically incompetent at everything (e.g. Going to war when their entire fleet can't retake a single ship), and simply being driven by nothing but blood thirst to the point where the quarians admirals will gladly sacrifice every last one of they ships to shoot at an enemy they know they can't defeat.

Actually, I think the Reapers were going to stick with Sovereign's plan to make the Heretics basically the new Keepers. 

[Kenshen]

Legion wasn't one geth though, he was 1183 individual programs. He was capable of what he did in ME2 and 3 because of 1183 individual geth working together in a single mobile platform..

If other units had a similar amount in them then you go from 1183 geth to a single individual.

They aren't geth any longer really but a new species.

 

 

Legion will tell you in ME2 that "his" platform is special to help communicate with organics easier.  Not sure what made it different but I always thought it was because there were that many programs inside such a small platform.  I am not sure it is ever mentioned how many programs operate inside each kind of platform but I would think it would differ from a rocket tropper,  juggernaut, or colossus.  One thing I can think of that could disprove my theory is the fact that it should get easier fighting geth as one kills each platform since they wouldn't have as many eyes to see with but that never is the case though probably just game play.

[SwobyJ]

The Geth typically want to be as connected to each other as possible. It's how they always worked, prior to the trilogy.

 

But once the Heretics broke off, uncertainty arose.

 

To figure out where they went wrong, they decided to seek out knowledge from the organics, starting with following Commander Shepard, the victor over Nazara.

 

So they got a platform and stuffed it full of enough programs that it could operate largely autonomously while being separated from other Geth - Legion. (Reminder that 1 Program = 1 Geth, until Legion and finally their optional code upgrade)

 

It is also hinted that Legion was the platform of the Geth that took that sniper rifle in the Geth Consensus level. These Geth programs may be the original ones of that platform, and then when more were added and Legion was shot by Heretic Geth on Eden Prime (following Shepard's path), they had enough 'individualism' in them that they formed attachment to Shepard's armor and Shepard himself, even without realizing it.

[SwobyJ]

To clarify, putting so many Geth programs into one platform would normally be seen as wasteful, imo. They probably like being in hubs (or eventually in a Dyson sphere) more than anything else. Living in the Consensus is really their home.

 

So Legion's experience was rather new. A platform of programs forced to communicate through physical material to organics in order to reach consensus within itself. It looked to Shepard for that guidance

[CrutchCricket]

Of course it's bad - the geth must have known that the reapers would wipe out all synthetics if they win (since the reapers are mostly concerned with preventing synthetics from developing to the point where they wipe out all life in the galaxy); as such, they had two choices - fight against the Reapers and die, or fight for the Reapers and die. Given that choice, they picked the option that would kill the greatest number of creators/organics whilst sacrificing everything the geth (according to legion/ the me2 writer) believe in. Basically, the geth are the HiWis of ME - volunteering to murder quarians for the Reapers so that they might get executed last.

Of course, the quarians are almost as bad an alley - ignoring battle plans, risking killing Shepard and thus dooming he entire galaxy to Reaper gooification for a minor victory, being comically incompetent at everything (e.g. Going to war when their entire fleet can't retake a single ship), and simply being driven by nothing but blood thirst to the point where the quarians admirals will gladly sacrifice every last one of they ships to shoot at an enemy they know they can't defeat.

 

The purpose of the Reapers is unknown to anyone until the holokid shows up to spout his bullshit and that's only to Shepard who will take the secret to his grave in two of the three endings and to deep space in the third. Your argument is invalid.

[KaiserShep]

Of course it's bad - the geth must have known that the reapers would wipe out all synthetics if they win (since the reapers are mostly concerned with preventing synthetics from developing to the point where they wipe out all life in the galaxy); as such, they had two choices - fight against the Reapers and die, or fight for the Reapers and die. Given that choice, they picked the option that would kill the greatest number of creators/organics whilst sacrificing everything the geth (according to legion/ the me2 writer) believe in. Basically, the geth are the HiWis of ME - volunteering to murder quarians for the Reapers so that they might get executed last.

Of course, the quarians are almost as bad an alley - ignoring battle plans, risking killing Shepard and thus dooming he entire galaxy to Reaper gooification for a minor victory, being comically incompetent at everything (e.g. Going to war when their entire fleet can't retake a single ship), and simply being driven by nothing but blood thirst to the point where the quarians admirals will gladly sacrifice every last one of they ships to shoot at an enemy they know they can't defeat.

 

Seeing as how the geth are just software, it's just as likely that the reapers would absorb them into their collective along with everything else. It may not be optimal from the geth's point of view, but it's preferable to being wiped out, the latter of which would have been pretty much certain had they resisted both them and the quarians' new anti-geth weapon.

[shodiswe]

The Catalyst told us they harvest both organic and synthetic civilisation. The Geth would be harvested.

The Geth would then live in a virtualreality like they always have, with one small change that the Geth disslike. They would loose their autonomy and freedom. They would never be allowed to leave the Reaper prison to build another sphere or persure otehr personal goals.
That's why the true Geth declined the Reapers offer, the Reapers pretended it wasn't much of a change for them but the Geth disagreed. The Geth want's to be in charge of their own future, the Reapers denied them that.
But when the Quarians attacked their choices stood between death/genocide and imprisonment by the reapers.

The Geth then choose imprisonment before getting wiped from existance. It took the Geth weeks of losses and the near complete destruction of their sphere that they had been workign on for almost 3 centuries before they eventualy agreed to surrender their freedom for their survival. It wasn't a decision they made lightly.

One could say they could choose between a Quarian with a gun to their head or a hostile AI that wanted to imprison them merely for existing. I think most people would say those choices sucked, but the reapers offered them the opportunity to live on for millions of years in the Reapers "golden cage".

How many people would choose prison over certain and pointless death?

[Sir DeLoria]

Of course, the quarians are almost as bad an alley - ignoring battle plans, risking killing Shepard and thus dooming he entire galaxy to Reaper gooification for a minor victory, being comically incompetent at everything (e.g. Going to war when their entire fleet can't retake a single ship), and simply being driven by nothing but blood thirst to the point where the quarians admirals will gladly sacrifice every last one of they ships to shoot at an enemy they know they can't defeat.

They had perfect battle plan, after all they managed to cleanse the entire Perseus Veil all the way to Rannoch and if the Reapers hadn't intervened they would have retaken Rannoch alone. Most of the decisions you mentioned weren't made by "the Quarians" but by one incompetent admiral. Aside from retaking Rannoch what other way could they have survived the war? A fleet of that size is easy prey for the Reapers.