122 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

I actually liked how they portrayed the hegemony. I just wish we could've seen more of it. I definitely wouldn't want them to change up the whole damn vibe they give off and do their best to show them in a much more sympathetic light. Part of the reason I found the Geth narrative so lame in the sequels.


The Geth were pretty damn cool back in 07. Then the sequels hit and we get the byproduct of that bullsh*t Borg retcon and Cylons finding their humanity. I want to purposely faceplant just thinking about it.



I'm hoping the next game is set in the current timeline so we can explore these things we didn't get a chance to while we were saving the entire galaxy. You know, like actually having more than 1 mission on each Council Homeworld(or actually going down to Palavens surface). I want a Batarian squadmate dammit. A fulltime Batarian squadmate would definitely shed more light on their culture. There's untapped story potential there (character-wise).

[KaiserShep]

I actually liked how they portrayed the hegemony. I just wish we could've seen more of it. I definitely wouldn't want them to change up the whole damn vibe they give off and do their best to show them in a much more sympathetic light. Part of the reason I found the Geth narrative so lame in the sequels.


The Geth were pretty damn cool back in 07. Then the sequels hit and we get the byproduct of that bullsh*t Borg retcon and Cylons finding their humanity. I want to purposely faceplant just thinking about it.



I'm hoping the next game is set in the current timeline so we can explore these things we didn't get a chance to while we were saving the entire galaxy. You know, like actually having more than 1 mission on each Council Homeworld(or actually going down to Palavens surface). I want a Batarian squadmate dammit. A fulltime Batarian squadmate would definitely shed more light on their culture. There's untapped story potential there (character-wise).

 

The lack of any real exposure on batarian culture was disappointing, considering how much at odds they were with humanity. We saw extremists and mercenaries, but the closest thing we ever got to anything really official was Balak.

 

As for the geth, in some ways their parallel with organics was kind of started since ME1, since they had the capacity to deify something. It would have been interesting to actually get some greater insight on the religiousness of the geth's regard for the reapers. Like, imagine if Legion itself was the sole anomaly among its kind, a heretic that saw the reapers for what they were, and that the geth were beyond saving since their "fanaticism" wasn't something that could be cured or reprogrammed. OR, if he was simply another religious synthetic aligned with the reapers too (though this would preclude having any geth allies at all since he'd just be another hostile). I guess this would also preclude having a playable geth in multiplayer, but I think the people who hate juggies wouldn't really care.

 

I'd love to have a Batarian squad member.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It would've been cool to get either Nyreen, if you sided with her or Bray, if you sided with Aria, as a squadmate afterwords. 

[Deathsaurer]

Said it before and I'll say it again. I think there should have been a Batarian squad member in ME3.

[Mcfly616]

The lack of any real exposure on batarian culture was disappointing, considering how much at odds they were with humanity. We saw extremists and mercenaries, but the closest thing we ever got to anything really official was Balak.
 
As for the geth, in some ways their parallel with organics was kind of started since ME1, since they had the capacity to deify something. It would have been interesting to actually get some greater insight on the religiousness of the geth's regard for the reapers. Like, imagine if Legion itself was the sole anomaly among its kind, a heretic that saw the reapers for what they were, and that the geth were beyond saving since their "fanaticism" wasn't something that could be cured or reprogrammed. OR, if he was simply another religious synthetic aligned with the reapers too (though this would preclude having any geth allies at all since he'd just be another hostile). I guess this would also preclude having a playable geth in multiplayer, but I think the people who hate juggies wouldn't really care.
 
I'd love to have a Batarian squad member.

I like the whole synthetic religious focus idea....that would've been sick. If Legion were that type of an anomaly. Though, I wasn't denying they have parallels with organics. I was simply saying that I didn't like the way they humanized them. Made them look like sympathetic figures or more like "people". Like, I love the grey areas and moral dilemmas that come with any sci fi. But when there's so many factions of different bad guys to go around, there's nothing wrong with having one of them just be 'the bad guys'.

[JerusPI]

It would've been cool to get either Nyreen, if you sided with her or Bray, if you sided with Aria, as a squadmate afterwords. 

Bray was a fairly balanced Batarian. I mean I respect Balak the same way I respect the pain Khalisah is going through in ME3 and always paragon her. Like Allers says in her final letter to you. "Everybody keeps sending me letters asking you to save their mothers planet or the colony they group up in or the factory they have money invested in. They don't know you're just one person. All they know is Commander Shepard killed a Reaper they can do it again"  Everybodys hurting. But Bray seems like a good example of middle ground {besides the network admin batarian i mentioned earlier] Especially his line at the end of Omega

Shepard: Do you always get these crap details Bray?

Bray: *chuckles* Not this time now lets get you back.

I can't remember if he says "Youve got a galaxy to save" or "you've got a war to win" but I liked Bray.

 

I think ME3 completely messed up their squadmate ratio.

ME1 you have six squaddies three love interests and zero DLC squaddies.

ME2 you have nine squaddies {i'm counting morinth and samara as one] six official love interests seven if you count liara in the dlc two unofficial love interests Samara and Kelly {You dont get an achievement for them and even if you do woo them and noone else theres not much in ME3 for them] and two DLC squaddies.

ME3 you got six squaddies {liara, edi, vega, Virmire survivor, garrus, Tali.} fourteen love interests {could have been fifteen but Ashley doesn't swing like that} and because of all that lovin they programmed....... ONE DLC squaddie. Thats a step back in the DLC department. Even in Omega they kill of one of your temporary squaddies and the other is just Liara if she decided to become a crime lord instead of the shadow broker. It would have been nice to have another DLC Squad mate {im sure there are a few dozen threads arguing if Javik is even technically DLC since he's already installed on the disc and you just pay to unlock him but this thread started off about Balak and Batarians and if Slavers are worse then Terrorists}

[JerusPI]

I like the whole synthetic religious focus idea....that would've been sick. If Legion were that type of an anomaly. Though, I wasn't denying they have parallels with organics. I was simply saying that I didn't like the way they humanized them. Made them look like sympathetic figures or more like "people". Like, I love the grey areas and moral dilemmas that come with any sci fi. But when there's so many factions of different bad guys to go around, there's nothing wrong with having one of them just be 'the bad guys'.

Here's a fun thing to consider next time you play it. When you're in the Geth consensus say out loud "Ummm Legion why are you ONLY showing me the memories that make the Geth look like victims?" Because that's exactly what Legion is doing. The only sympathetic Quarian memories are about Quarians who tried to protect the Geth. There is absolutely no memories of "And this is from the time Saren had us impale people on spikes for his amusement he wasn't even in the mood for husks he just wanted to watch humans get impaled that day and we totally went along with it because you know he spoke for god" It feels like Legion or the :Legion stand in is deliberately trying to manipulate Shepard with pity party memories. "They tortured us": "We defended ourselves" "They killed their own people" "We let them leave in peace" I'm sure there were some things the Geth didn't want Shepard to see.

[KaiserShep]

There's not much point to showing the geth putting people on dragon's teeth in the consensus when we actually saw those things happen in ME1. All of ME1 gives Shepard plenty of perspective on the bad side of the geth. Also, Saren's amusement doesn't really matter, because the geth themselves are not amused by anything.

[Mcfly616]

Here's a fun thing to consider next time you play it. When you're in the Geth consensus say out loud "Ummm Legion why are you ONLY showing me the memories that make the Geth look like victims?" Because that's exactly what Legion is doing. The only sympathetic Quarian memories are about Quarians who tried to protect the Geth. There is absolutely no memories of "And this is from the time Saren had us impale people on spikes for his amusement he wasn't even in the mood for husks he just wanted to watch humans get impaled that day and we totally went along with it because you know he spoke for god" It feels like Legion or the :Legion stand in is deliberately trying to manipulate Shepard with pity party memories. "They tortured us": "We defended ourselves" "They killed their own people" "We let them leave in peace" I'm sure there were some things the Geth didn't want Shepard to see.

Yeah....I'm saying, I wish Bioware didn't go in that direction. Or just demonstrated more of them being cold and calculated machines.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Here's a fun thing to consider next time you play it. When you're in the Geth consensus say out loud "Ummm Legion why are you ONLY showing me the memories that make the Geth look like victims?" Because that's exactly what Legion is doing. The only sympathetic Quarian memories are about Quarians who tried to protect the Geth. There is absolutely no memories of "And this is from the time Saren had us impale people on spikes for his amusement he wasn't even in the mood for husks he just wanted to watch humans get impaled that day and we totally went along with it because you know he spoke for god" It feels like Legion or the :Legion stand in is deliberately trying to manipulate Shepard with pity party memories. "They tortured us": "We defended ourselves" "They killed their own people" "We let them leave in peace" I'm sure there were some things the Geth didn't want Shepard to see.

 

My idea for changing that mission would be to include a Quarian representative (preferably not Tali) that accompanies Shepard on the missions. Secondly, the scenes will change to be more balanced, for example there would be a scene showing the Geth later in the war gunning down a Quarian family (including children) and also a bit showing the Geth collective bombing a city with a chemical agent. After each bit there would be more of a discussion between Shepard, the Quarian representative, and the Geth representative commenting on what they saw. Shepard will generally have the response to be more pro Quarian or pro Geth, or more neutral options ranging from accusing both parties to a more sympathetic approach.

[DeinonSlayer]

My idea for changing that mission would be to include a Quarian representative (preferably not Tali) that accompanies Shepard on the missions. Secondly, the scenes will change to be more balanced, for example there would be a scene showing the Geth later in the war gunning down a Quarian family (including children) and also a bit showing the Geth collective bombing a city with a chemical agent. After each bit there would be more of a discussion between Shepard, the Quarian representative, and the Geth representative commenting on what they saw. Shepard will generally have the response to be more pro Quarian or pro Geth, or more neutral options ranging from accusing both parties to a more sympathetic approach.

Either that, or change the Admiral Koris mission so you go through the remains of a city and see the devastation the Geth caused, then go into his crashed ship and see the sh**ty conditions they've been living in - cramped metal cubicles in a decrepit freighter's cargo hold. Then you'd have one mission which confronted mistakes made by the Quarians, and another confronting the Geth for what they did. At the very least, we should have been able to talk to Raan and get the history from their side (not just fleet composition and an opportunity for Shepard to whine about Farixen), maybe talk to Gerrel about what alternatives they had to the current war and hear his rationale. Making the two sides overcome their ignorance of each other should have been the focus of the arc, not painting the Geth as pure victims.

But, then, this entire discussion probably belongs in the other thread.

[JerusPI]

Either that, or change the Admiral Koris mission so you go through the remains of a city and see the devastation the Geth caused, then go into his crashed ship and see the sh**ty conditions they've been living in - as in, cramped metal cubicles in a decrepit freighter's cargo hold. Then you'd have one mission which confronted mistakes made by the Quarians, and another confronting the Geth for what they did. Making the two sides overcome their ignorance of each other should have been the focus of the arc, not painting the Geth as pure victims.

But, then, this entire discussion probably belongs in the other thread.

Even in BSN discussions Batarians get their threads overlooked in favor of the Quarian debates..

[DeinonSlayer]

Even in BSN discussions Batarians get their threads overlooked in favor of the Quarian debates..

Do you not see the dejection?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Even in BSN discussions Batarians get their threads overlooked in favor of the Quarian debates..

 

Everyone hates those goddamn terrorists so there's no conflict about them, and conflict sometimes seems to be the usual oil that keeps BSN going.

[SporkFu]

Either that, or change the Admiral Koris mission so you go through the remains of a city and see the devastation the Geth caused, then go into his crashed ship and see the sh**ty conditions they've been living in - as in, cramped metal cubicles in a decrepit freighter's cargo hold. Then you'd have one mission which confronted mistakes made by the Quarians, and another confronting the Geth for what they did. Making the two sides overcome their ignorance of each other should have been the focus of the arc, not painting the Geth as pure victims.

But, then, this entire discussion probably belongs in the other thread.

Wasn't that ME2's job? Starting with Veetor on Freedom's Progress, then Kenn on Omega, then Lia'Vael on the citadel, then that indentured servant on Ilium, right through Tali's recruit and loyalty missions we learn all about how hard the quarians have it, and that we should be sympathetic. Through all that all we hear about the geth is that they're no longer the boogeymen they used to be. It's not until Legion shows up that we discover they weren't all boogeymen to begin with.

[DeinonSlayer]

Wasn't that ME2's job? Starting with Veetor on Freedom's Progress, then Kenn on Omega, then Lia'Vael on the citadel, then that indentured servant on Ilium, right through Tali's recruit and loyalty missions we learn all about how hard the quarians have it, and that we should be sympathetic. Through all that all we hear about the geth is that they're no longer the boogeymen they used to be. It's not until Legion shows up that we discover they weren't all boogeymen to begin with.

"ME3 is the best place to start the series."

There's no reason the synopsis they provided in ME3 couldn't include the perspective of both sides. Being as this was the penultimate chapter, it should have been where both sides put their best arguments forward, not a black-and-white Pinocchio story which coaxes players to one side by burying the other.

Think of Mordin's ME2 loyalty mission. If he had simply spent the whole time running around screaming "Kill the Krogan!" the reasons for the genophage would still exist; there simply wouldn't be a character to intelligently articulate them in-game.

[SporkFu]

"ME3 is the best place to start the series."

There's no reason the synopsis they provided in ME3 couldn't include the perspective of both sides. Being as this was the penultimate chapter, it should have been where both sides put their best arguments forward, not a black-and-white Pinocchio story which coaxes players to one side by burying the other.

Think of Mordin's ME2 loyalty mission. If he had simply spent the whole time running around screaming "Kill the Krogan!" the reasons for the genophage would still exist; there simply wouldn't be a character to intelligently articulate them in-game.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying we should ignore ME2 as it applies to the geth/quarian thing, but not as it applies to the genophage?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Batarians were a bit of a wasted opportunity really.

 

I think so to. In a galaxy where every race has a general working relationship, the Batarians are the odd man out and I wish the games did explore that facet of the Mass Effect Universe a little more. When they introduced BDtS as the only story DLC for ME1 I thought it was set up for a larger Batarian presence in the story, unfortunately they got as much development as a race like the Drell.

 

I always thought it would have been more interesting to have introduced an Indoctrinated Hegemony faction rather than Star Forge Cerberus. That after the destruction of their system and the indifference of the galactic community the Batarians were left frustrated by their inability to bring justice to the Alliance; and in that state the Reapers first come not as conquerors but as allies, lending them the technology needed to wage a war against humanity while secretly setting up to betray them.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying we should ignore ME2 as it applies to the geth/quarian thing, but not as it applies to the genophage?

 

I think he's saying to present both sides equally together at the same time. In ME2 the plight of the Quarians is presented in a sympathetic matter, but it gets hard to remember that in the sudden onslaught of the pro-Geth parade and the transformation of the Quarians into jerks who like to shoot at ships Shepard is on.

 

Same with the Genophage. There were actual good reasons why the Genophage was introduced beyond the idea that Turians are jerks and Salarians are racist jerks. But in the story it gets reduced to sabotaging the Genophage because Wreav can't be trusted (like Krogan behavior is completely dictated by those who lead them) or doing it to get Salarian aid.

[DeinonSlayer]

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying we should ignore ME2 as it applies to the geth/quarian thing, but not as it applies to the genophage?

No. I'm saying that in both the genophage and QvG issues, both sides should have been clearly presented - they shouldn't have put forward a strawman version of the position established in prior titles.

In ME2, Mordin makes an intelligent case for why the genophage was the right course of action. In ME3, the only remaining advocate for the genophage is a shrill racist whom we're railroaded into arguing against and whose subordinates insult her behind her back, lest there be any question what we should think of her. Same thing went for the Quarian position as conveyed in ME3.

Sorry for the derail, OP. This really belongs in the other thread.

[SporkFu]

I think he's saying to present both sides equally together at the same time. In ME2 the plight of the Quarians is presented in a sympathetic matter, but it gets hard to remember that in the sudden onslaught of the pro-Geth parade and the transformation of the Quarians into jerks who like to shoot at ships Shepard is on.

 

Same with the Genophage. There were actual good reasons why the Genophage was introduced beyond the idea that Turians are jerks and Salarians are racist jerks. But in the story it gets reduced to sabotaging the Genophage because Wreav can't be trusted (like Krogan behavior is completely dictated by those who lead them) or doing it to get Salarian aid.

Okay I can understand that viewpoint... and @DeinonSlayer: Wasn't trying to be obtuse, just wasn't sure where you were coming from  ... and maybe it's because I did play the first two games so extensively that it's impossible for me to forget what happened before when I play through the events of ME3. My perceptions are going to be colored no matter what, and I can't find fault in Legion trying so obviously to persuade Shepard to see their side.

[SporkFu]

No. I'm saying that in both the genophage and QvG issues, both sides should have been clearly presented - they shouldn't have put forward a strawman version of the position established in prior titles.

In ME2, Mordin makes an intelligent case for why the genophage was the right course of action. In ME3, the only remaining advocate for the genophage is a shrill racist whom we're railroaded into arguing against and whose subordinates insult her behind her back, lest there be any question what we should think of her. Same thing went for the Quarian position as conveyed in ME3.

Sorry for the derail, OP. This really belongs in the other thread.

Argh, this is what happens when replies get added while you type, heh. Thanks for the clarification.

 

And yes, apologies OP.

[Remix-General Aetius]

I let him go in ME1, and I let him live in ME3. he hates me anyway, so him knowing I SPARED his life is a far bigger punishment than putting him out of his misery.

 

besides I get a few extra ships...........for whatever they're worth.

[Ieldra]

The Balak decision is always very hard for me. I really like Kate Bowman and I always feel that if I'm going to save the galaxy, it's for people like her. So letting her die is always painful. Still, there's the bigger picture to consider, so about half of my Shepards stopped Balak regardless.

But his 2IC, Charn I think was his name, he rarely gets away. When he says he was here "just to grab a few slaves", Shepard's answer "That's enough for me" (or something to that effect) is too close to what I'm feeling at that moment, and there isn't any downside to killing him either.

[KaiserShep]

But his 2IC, Charn I think was his name, he rarely gets away. When he says he was here "just to grab a few slaves", Shepard's answer "That's enough for me" (or something to that effect) is too close to what I'm feeling at that moment, and there isn't any downside to killing him either.

 

It's like he wasn't even thinking before he spoke. I mean, telling the human soldier that he's just there to snag some slaves and got caught up in an act of genocide that he would have willingly gone along with save for this sudden threat against his life, and with zero leverage? He might as well just walk in with a bull's-eye on his chest.