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[Cobra's_back]

So he was blind and stupid? He was the man to lead these people to utopia? And Meredith was given a corrupt circle and a worthless Grand Enchanter.

 

Pity that Annulment didn't get green lit years before, likely would have saved the world some grief.

So true. He was blind and stupid. Grand Enchanter was worthless. Meredith went Red Bat s*** crazy. As for the Annulment, I can't do it. I wanted to get the children and any loyalist out of there. Why should they have suffered because of the blood mages.

[DontWakeTheBear]

So he was blind and stupid? He was the man to lead these people to utopia? And Meredith was given a corrupt circle and a worthless First Enchanter.

 

Pity that Annulment didn't get green lit years before, likely would have saved the world some grief.

Maybe, maybe not. Without the Circle in Kirkwall there would have been no legal reason to maintain such a strong Templar presence and without a strong mage and Templar presence then Kirkwall would have almost certainly fallen during the Qunari Invasion, Hawk or no Hawk. It's certainly possible that without the Circle for Anders to fight for then he might not have ended up blowing up the Chantry and leading to the Mage/Templar war...then again it might have anyway, who knows.

 

As for Thrask, he believed that Mage's and Templars could work together to create something better, he had views that clearly differed from your own and your entitled to your own opinion, but quite a few people believe that his theory could be a viable one even if it didn't work out for him.

[EmissaryofLies]

Well said. Why he didn't I don't know. It seems like many characters in DA 2 were 2 cans short of a 6 pack.

 

The seekers were mia for the entirety of DA II and their one representative was more concerned about Kirkwall 'falling to magic' than improving anything. 

 

Short of marching/sending to the Divine herself, his efforts to do things by the book would have gotten him absolutely nowhere. He were just a bit more rational in his machinations he likely would have succeeded. 

 

I'm still pissed that bioware wrote that entire story arc to fail miserably. 

 

 

Edit: Nvm, apparently the Divine was thinking about calling an exalted march and Meredith had not gotten her permission for the annulment and she was the Knight Commander while Thrask is lower rank. I doubt that he'd get through any faster. He really did not have many options here.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I just replayed DA2 now. I have never supported the templars, as I believe the way they treat mages are wrong. But Fenris keeps telling Hawke that if mages are free, they will take controll and slave the non-mages. So does free mages make them conquerors? If the mages "win the war"  in DAI, will it lead to another Tevinter Imperium?

 

In my opinion the Tevinter Imperium seems even worse than the Circle. But it is in human nature to seek domination. And mages are stronger than regular folks. So is the cicle a necessity then?

 

What do you guys think?

 

I can see where Fenris is coming from.

 

If you free the mages outright, you now have these people in your society every bit as gifted as anyone else, plus their magical talent. With magic, they have additional means to reach their goals. Sadly, might often makes right. If and when mages rise to power, how do those who don't have magic compete with them? How do those who do have magic compete with them, other than being more powerful mages?

 

To that end, I've never heard any convincing argument from in-game advocates of freeing mages that this scenario would not take place. It's always, "You can't treat us all based on what we might do." Actually, yes we can, if you do not inspire confidence on your own.

[Cobra's_back]

The seekers were mia for the entirety of DA II and their one representative was more concerned about Kirkwall 'falling to magic' than improving anything. 

 

Short of marching/sending to the Divine herself, his efforts to do things by the book would have gotten him absolutely nowhere. He were just a bit more rational in his machinations he likely would have succeeded. 

 

I'm still pissed that bioware wrote that entire story arc to fail miserably. 

 

 

Edit: Nvm, apparently the Divine was thinking about calling an exalted march and Meredith had not gotten her permission for the annulment and she was the Knight Commander while Thrask is lower rank. I doubt that he'd get through any faster. He really did not have many options here.

 

Good point. I wonder if he was clouded by guilt. This would explain why he wasn't a rational thinker anymore.

[Cobra's_back]

I can see where Fenris is coming from.

 

If you free the mages outright, you now have these people in your society every bit as gifted as anyone else, plus their magical talent. With magic, they have additional means to reach their goals. Sadly, might often makes right. If and when mages rise to power, how do those who don't have magic compete with them? How do those who do have magic compete with them, other than being more powerful mages?

 

To that end, I've never heard any convincing argument from in-game advocates of freeing mages that this scenario would not take place. It's always, "You can't treat us all based on what we might do." Actually, yes we can, if you do not inspire confidence on your own.

 

Fenris, Flemeth summed him up correctly. He was a slave still. It took him all game to figure out how to free himself. He thinks he knows what might happen. I wouldn't consider the guy a problem solver.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fenris, Flemeth summed him up correctly. He was a slave still. It took him all game to figure out how to free himself. He thinks he knows what might happen. I wouldn't consider the guy a problem solver.

 

He saw a society where it did happen, He is objective in that basis.

 

.-. He presents a cautionary what if scenario, Nothing more.

[Cobra's_back]

He saw a society where it did happen, He is objective in that basis.

 

.-. He presents a cautionary what if scenario, Nothing more.

 

True. 

[MisterJB]

He did this because the system was flawed and he wasn't the only one. In the last book just published we have another character hide his magic child and he was anything but a bleeding heart.

In the last book just published, we have a noble we never meet conceal his magical daugther. Were you thinking Lienne was Gaspard's daugther or something?

 

And while the system could bear some improvement, even at its worse, it's preferable to mages becoming Abominations. Of course, considering how later Thrask came to accept an Abomination as his second in command, he clearly was asleep when his instructors explained that mages are susceptible to demonic possession.

[EmissaryofLies]

Good point. I wonder if he was clouded by guilt. This would explain why he wasn't a rational thinker anymore.

 

Oh most definitely. 

 

It seems like it had to hit a personal note for Thrask that the circle system needed to be changed, Kirkwall's in particular.

[DKJaigen]

I can see where Fenris is coming from.

 

If you free the mages outright, you now have these people in your society every bit as gifted as anyone else, plus their magical talent. With magic, they have additional means to reach their goals. Sadly, might often makes right. If and when mages rise to power, how do those who don't have magic compete with them? How do those who do have magic compete with them, other than being more powerful mages?

 

To that end, I've never heard any convincing argument from in-game advocates of freeing mages that this scenario would not take place. It's always, "You can't treat us all based on what we might do." Actually, yes we can, if you do not inspire confidence on your own.

 

We dont act like this in our own world. And its weird you blame the strong that they are strong instead of the weak being weak. pulling the strong to the same level as the weak only creates weakness. In my opinion most normal people should be converted to spirit warriors or reavers or anything else that allows them to reach the same heights as the mages.

[MrMrPendragon]

The people of Thedas prefer to have the common folk in power and oppress mages, rather than the other way around.

Of course there is no guarantee that the mages will form another Tevinter Imperium if they are set free, but since the majority of the people (non-mage people) like the status quo, they're not going to do anything about it. They're just hoping the mages can swallow every injustice people throw at them.


What they should do is still round up all the mages and put them in the Tower, but not indefinitely. They will train for years, and if they're good enough, they can be given a test or a series of tests. If they pass, then they are free, but the phylactery stays. Give mages the rights and freedoms of the common folk. Double the Templar numbers to prevent disasters and have them patrol every city like guards, but restrict their jurisdiction. Templars will only have jurisdiction to magic-related incidents, everything else stays with the guard. Lastly, kick out Grand Clerics like Elthina who do nothing in the midst of conflict.

[Cobra's_back]

In the last book just published, we have a noble we never meet conceal his magical daugther. Were you thinking Lienne was Gaspard's daugther or something?

 

And while the system could bear some improvement, even at its worse, it's preferable to mages becoming Abominations. Of course, considering how later Thrask came to accept an Abomination as his second in command, he clearly was asleep when his instructors explained that mages are susceptible to demonic possession.

 

I was thinking about Lienne de Montsimmard the daughter of Marquis de Montsimmard and an apostate. I thought her father knew the Circle was going to end. I have a post above on the reforms needed to make the circle work.

[dragonflight288]

There's one way to reform the Circle, well, more than one, but for templar-supporters and mage-supporters, I think the goal should be this. 

 

If you can get a majority of mages to genuinely believe that the Circle is better for them than being free of it, most mages will happily live within it. It'll be much easier to root out the extremists if the majority are happy with the status quo.

 

The problem is that it's seen as not being in the best interests of mages to live in. And recent history has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the templars and seekers do not have the best interest of the mages at heart. 

 

If there are to be any true reforms for the Circle, it has to be with the goal of making mages want to live in Circle's in mind. 

 

That'll solve most of the problems. 

[Cobra's_back]

There's one way to reform the Circle, well, more than one, but for templar-supporters and mage-supporters, I think the goal should be this. 

 

If you can get a majority of mages to genuinely believe that the Circle is better for them than being free of it, most mages will happily live within it. It'll be much easier to root out the extremists if the majority are happy with the status quo.

 

The problem is that it's seen as not being in the best interests of mages to live in. And recent history has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the templars and seekers do not have the best interest of the mages at heart. 

 

If there are to be any true reforms for the Circle, it has to be with the goal of making mages want to live in Circle's in mind. 

 

That'll solve most of the problems. 

 

I could not have said it better.  Thank you

[teh DRUMPf!!]

We dont act like this in our own world. And its weird you blame the strong that they are strong instead of the weak being weak. pulling the strong to the same level as the weak only creates weakness. In my opinion most normal people should be converted to spirit warriors or reavers or anything else that allows them to reach the same heights as the mages.

 

We do, actually: quarantine zones for people who carry the plague (can't take credit for this analogy, it was Dean's).

 

Strength can be either constructive or damaging to society. I am not opposed to giving mages a bigger role in society where it's warranted, but safe channels have to exist so that can be regulated, and the Circle is one of those channels IMO.

[MisterJB]

There's one way to reform the Circle, well, more than one, but for templar-supporters and mage-supporters, I think the goal should be this. 

 

If you can get a majority of mages to genuinely believe that the Circle is better for them than being free of it, most mages will happily live within it. It'll be much easier to root out the extremists if the majority are happy with the status quo.

 

The problem is that it's seen as not being in the best interests of mages to live in. And recent history has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the templars and seekers do not have the best interest of the mages at heart. 

 

If there are to be any true reforms for the Circle, it has to be with the goal of making mages want to live in Circle's in mind. 

 

That'll solve most of the problems. 

Well, we already give them free housing, food, clothes, education; allow them to live in Emperor Drakon's former palace, have the Knight Commander share power with the First Enchanters, allow them to leave for a time if they prove themselves trustworthy, etc.

 

I am seriously running out of ideas of what else we can give them before they're actually satisfied and agree to stay in the Circle.

[Hellion Rex]

Well, we already give them free housing, food, clothes, education; allow them to live in Emperor Drakon's former palace, have the Knight Commander share power with the First Enchanters, allow them to leave for a time if they prove themselves trustworthy, etc.

 

I am seriously running out of ideas of what else we can give them before they're actually satisfied and agree to stay in the Circle.

So what do we do then? Execute the lot of them, and start over with a new generation?

[Cobra's_back]

Well, we already give them free housing, food, clothes, education; allow them to live in Emperor Drakon's former palace, have the Knight Commander share power with the First Enchanters, allow them to leave for a time if they prove themselves trustworthy, etc.

 

I am seriously running out of ideas of what else we can give them before they're actually satisfied and agree to stay in the Circle.

 

They use mages as weapons. I say no free food, housing, and clothes for adult mages. Let them earn a living and have a family. Less time to get in trouble if they have to learn to make a living. A community with the templars watching, but the corruption in the Chantry has to go. Get rid of the lyrium addiction that was never needed and quit training mages to be their weapon. 

[RobRam10]

Free the mages, enslave the non-mages and pave the way for the glorious nation is the best solution for Thedas. Long live Tevinter.

[DKJaigen]

We do, actually: quarantine zones for people who carry the plague (can't take credit for this analogy, it was Dean's).

 

Strength can be either constructive or damaging to society. I am not opposed to giving mages a bigger role in society where it's warranted, but safe channels have to exist so that can be regulated, and the Circle is one of those channels IMO.

 

considering that the tevinter imperium is standing and even thriving i say quarantine is not acceptable. Myself am pro-circle as i believe that magic must be mastered before  you can use it. what i am however is completely anti templar/chantry and i hold them responsible for the current demon invasion. 1000 years the chantry knew of the demons and a 1000 years they sat on their asses or restrained circle mages from developing for their own selfish needs. 

[Cobra's_back]

We do, actually: quarantine zones for people who carry the plague (can't take credit for this analogy, it was Dean's).

 

Strength can be either constructive or damaging to society. I am not opposed to giving mages a bigger role in society where it's warranted, but safe channels have to exist so that can be regulated, and the Circle is one of those channels IMO.

 

Actually it is not a plague you can't catch it.

 

 

Humans with no magical background have mage children.

 

 

The Circle is corrupt and it needs to get fixed. The Chantry needs to lose some of its political power. 

[MisterJB]

They use mages as weapons.

 

They ask them for help and the mages are free to refuse. They don't do it because it's in their best interests to earn some good rep.

Plus, the only cases we know of the mages being allowed to fight was against the Darkspawn and the Qunari.

 

 

I say no free food, housing, and clothes for adult mages. Let them earn a living and have a family. Less time to get in trouble if they have to learn to make a living.

So, they get every one of their needs provided by the Tranquil without them actually having to work and they're still complaining?

Either they have to learn to make a living or they get free food, etc. Both are mutually exclusive.

 

Also, take into account that the introduction of mages in the general market could lead to the Circle economically dominating society.

 

 

have a family.

 

corruption in the Chantry has to go

 

Overpopulation  which leads to conflict which leads to a greater need for Templars which leads to a greater need for lyrium which leads to the prices increasing which leads to the Chantry having to find money somewhere, you know where I'm going with this . Plus, emotional instability could lead to demonic possession.

 

And what about the corruption amidst the mages?
 

 

 Get rid of the lyrium addiction that was never needed

 

David Gaider has officially confirmed that Lyrium is needed and that the only reason they had Alistair say that was because they were unable to create a mechanic where the Warden or Alistair had to drink lyrium.

Alistair even claims that he has started to use lyrium again in one of the comics.
 

 

 quit training mages to be their weapon. 

And the next time the Qunari come knocking?

[MisterJB]

Actually it is not a plague you can't catch it.

But mages can be possessed against their will, in which case they will bring harm to other due to circunstances completely beyond their control for no other reason that those bystanders happened to be near them.

In that sense, magic is very much like a plague.

[MisterJB]

So what do we do then? Execute the lot of them, and start over with a new generation?

For one, stop claiming that the reason this problem exists is because we just aren't giving the mages enough.