746 réponses à ce sujet

[sunnydxmen]

Templars can be as evil as mages in there rebelling against chantry too.

[whogotsalami]

Yes everyones insane and cant be trusted except Lyrium Junkies.

That made me chuckle

[Tevinter Soldier]

It kinda defeats the biggest pro mage argument which is against inequality if you're simply reversing the pendulum in favor of mages. 

 

But as I addressed such qualm's are a fallacy. if you apply the same logic to Tevinter then in Tevinter the proper and correct why to do things is that Mundanes are kept as slaves. after all there's more slaves then magisters and as we have seen in the past mundane's take over and oppress mage's they must therefore be kept under foot.

[EmissaryofLies]

And so the cycle will continue until someone comes up with the bright idea of workable compromise. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

And so the cycle will continue until someone comes up with the bright idea of workable compromise. 

 

hopefully the people of thedas are better at negotiating then forumers, because all these threads almost always end with both group storming off to plan genocides! 

[Inprea]

To the original question. Mages are just too human for me to believe they could rule by might of magic alone. They need enough people willing to follow them and support them. I hope no one minds this example but thinking of star wars and the Sith empire. In ToR to become a member of the dark council you must be more then a powerful sith.  You must have the backing of at least a few of the military leaders who are not sith. They're the ones with the ships and the soldiers you're going to need. Even in the Imperium I can't help but believe there would be a class of none mages who rank above the norm and perhaps even out rank mid level mages. They're your generals and your military families. Perhaps they're even the merchants who command truly vast wealth. I don't mean the little shop owner I mean the trade company owner.

 

Otherwise a throat that's opened wide enough or a knife through the back and the heart can end a mage pretty quickly. Except maybe a spirit healer or arcane warrior.

 

If the culture doesn't allow the mages to obtain such backers I can't see them forming a new imperium.

[The Baconer]

Thedas should seek this technology through means that do not marginalize the overwhelming majority of the population.

Runes would be a good alternative, for instance.

 

Whoever finds the most effective method first will have the biggest advantage. If magic happens to work better then runes, then what? And how would the mundane population be more marginalized then they already are? You might as well try to regulate the natural power and opportunity that's tied to affluence.

 

It kinda defeats the biggest pro mage argument which is against inequality if you're simply reversing the pendulum in favor of mages.

 

Reversing the pendulum? This isn't some kind of institutionalized discrimination a la Tevinter, this is the natural result of having skills that just happen to be extremely valuable and marketable. This isn't even something that would apply to all mages as a whole. Is every mage in Thedas going to devote their livelihoods to maintaining this theoretical power grid? Would all of them be capable of doing it, or be interested in such a line of work?

[Gervaise]

The problem is the only example people have of free mages with power is Tevinter.  In Tevinter the laws allow slavery, although in some instances the slaves may actually be better off than say a common peasant in Orlais.   However, the common peasant doesn't have to worry that his overlord is suddenly going to slit his throat to power his latest magical experiment.  In Tevinter the powerful noble families are steeped in magic which is why trying to keep them out of power was never going to work.  Tevinter is a corrupt magical society and as Lambert explains in Asunder, you can rise to power promising to try and reform things but the reality is that if you want to stay alive, you have to be more powerful than the next magister and invariably that leads to blood magic because you are not limited by the amount of lyrium available. Now the magisters take children away from the parents and place them in Circles because naturally they want to control the way they develop their magic and the loyalties that they form within society.  So Tevinter is not an example of totally free mages but Circles controlled by mages instead of by Templars.   Even Feynriel admits that he can see where the Templars are coming from once he has spent some time in Tevinter.

 

However, that does not necessarily mean that free mages equals mage dominance.  In fact the argument put forward for keeping the mages segregated from society has more to do with ensuring that if magical experiments go wrong, only the mages get hurt.    It also protects the mages themselves from the ignorance of the mob that might easily turn on an isolated mage child who accidentally does harm.    Now there is a group of mages in Ferelden, the Mages Collective, who appear to be a group of apostates who try to police themselves and seem reasonably successful at it.    So if you want a society where mages are free, there will still need to be some sort of mage training at a local level so young mages do get guidance when they are at their most vulnerable.     But if you want to keep power balanced, the best places for mages to be is within their own social group, so their loyalty will be to their family or their community rather than to the Circle and the First Enchanter.  You will also still need Templars as a sort of magical police force but serving society as a whole rather than the Chantry.    Outside of Tevinter the spread of mages is across society and if anything there are more mages taken from the peasantry than the nobility.    That is the real reason mages will struggle to be allowed their freedom, because the nobles fear having their power eroded and free mages among the peasants will do exactly that.

[Shadow Fox]

But as I addressed such qualm's are a fallacy. if you apply the same logic to Tevinter then in Tevinter the proper and correct why to do things is that Mundanes are kept as slaves. after all there's more slaves then magisters and as we have seen in the past mundane's take over and oppress mage's they must therefore be kept under foot.

Then why argue against the Circles on basis of oppression if you approve of Tevinter's society?

 

It's the same system simply in reverse.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Sten didn't kill those children for fun it was in a fit of rage and now your potting an entire Ideology for the actions of one bloke.

Honestly you are determined to discriminate and stereotype every group but the one you support, How very Orlesian of you.

Yes everyones insane and cant be trusted except Lyrium Junkies.

 

Yes because all qunari are doing that 1 individual isn't majority of race/group so well... and funny thing that im not pro-templar but i know that templars are better deal disciplined soldiers that at least are sane than with insane power hungry psychos and walking nuclear bombs. At worst templar will kick mage ass for nothing at worst mage will burn the world just because as many mages presented such attitude.

 

And in mages case those stereotypes are truth not "black man is devil son" so well...

[Mockingword]

Of course free mages will lead to another Tevinter Imperium. Everybody knows that if something happens once, it will happen again, even if it's a thousand years later, and involves a completely different group of people with completely different cultural values.

 

I spilled a glass of water earlier today, so now no white men are allowed to have water, for fear that they will spill it.

[KainD]

And in mages case those stereotypes are truth not "black man is devil son" so well...

 

No they are not, TKS pls. Suspecting all the mages can be understood, actually believing that all mages are the same is silly. 

[BlueMagitek]

Free mages do not equate another Tevinter Imperium.

 

However, mages are very dangerous. Mages are also people.  People can do stupid, selfish things.  And the greater power a person wields, the greater in scale his mistake can be. 

 

The Circles are good because they manage to act as a preventive measure, full of people with similar power or powers that can nullify magic.  Are there abuses on occasion?  Yes.  Kirkwall in particular was abhorrent.  Unfortunately the Templar are people too, but at least there is punishment and oversight within the organization.  Should mages, especially Enchanter and above, have greater privileges?  Yes.

 

There's also the entire 'mind control' issue with blood magic, but that's an argument on its own.

 

Though, I do always find it somewhat distressing when the groups that need the most help (City Elves, Casteless Dwarves) are ignored in favor of a group that is in a gilded cage.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Then why argue against the Circles on basis of oppression if you approve of Tevinter's society?

 

It's the same system simply in reverse.

 

Because i'm not arguing along those grounds i pointed out the hypocrisy of doing so, "fearing" a take over as justification for oppression is nothing more then a might makes right rule in which case it becomes irrelevant as to who's in charge there who's right and who's wrong is decided who's in charge at the time.

 

There's many arguments to be had about free mages abomination's etc. but oppressing people out of fear of being oppressed is not one of them.

by your own logic your justifying tevinters behaviour. 

[Shadow Fox]

Of course free mages will lead to another Tevinter Imperium. Everybody knows that if something happens once, it will happen again, even if it's a thousand years later, and involves a completely different group of people with completely different cultural values.

 

I spilled a glass of water earlier today, so now no white men are allowed to have water, for fear that they will spill it.

Nobody has said it will happen just a high probability it might so it's best to take preventative measures to ensure it doesn't.

 

Free mages do not equate another Tevinter Imperium.

 

However, mages are very dangerous. Mages are also people.  People can do stupid, selfish things.  And the greater power a person wields, the greater in scale his mistake can be. 

 

The Circles are good because they manage to act as a preventive measure, full of people with similar power or powers that can nullify magic.  Are there abuses on occasion?  Yes.  Kirkwall in particular was abhorrent.  Unfortunately the Templar are people too, but at least there is punishment and oversight within the organization.  Should mages, especially Enchanter and above, have greater privileges?  Yes.

 

There's also the entire 'mind control' issue with blood magic, but that's an argument on its own.

 

Though, I do always find it somewhat distressing when the groups that need the most help (City Elves, Casteless Dwarves) are ignored in favor of a group that is in a gilded cage.

Preach it brother/sister!

[Shadow Fox]

Because i'm not arguing along those grounds i pointed out the hypocrisy of doing so, "fearing" a take over as justification for oppression is nothing more then a might makes right rule in which case it becomes irrelevant as to who's in charge there who's right and who's wrong is decided who's in charge at the time.

 

There's many arguments to be had about free mages abomination's etc. but oppressing people out of fear of being oppressed is not one of them.

by your own logic your justifying tevinters behaviour. 

Putting restrictions on mages to lessen the chances of another Tevinter or magical misuse isn't necessarily oppression.

 

Also see BlueMagitek's post above yours.

[KainD]

Putting restrictions on mages to lessen the chances of another Tevinter or magical misuse isn't necessarily oppression.

 

It is.. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

Yes because all qunari are doing that 1 individual isn't majority of race/group so well... and funny thing that im not pro-templar but i know that templars are better deal disciplined soldiers that at least are sane than with insane power hungry psychos and walking nuclear bombs. At worst templar will kick mage ass for nothing at worst mage will burn the world just because as many mages presented such attitude.

 

And in mages case those stereotypes are truth not "black man is devil son" so well...

 

What? where are all Qunari murdering children for fun? where's even one?

My mistake your not pro templar your just anti mage and anti Qunari.

 

fact is you take a hand of incidents and present it as fact and discount the vast majority who do the right thing. your paranoia about the end of the world is detached from the reality of the situation. It hasn't happened here's no indication that it will. yet we've had mages doing magey stuff right across thedas since forever and they still get about untouched by the templars.

 

oh why oh why haven't these evil mages destroyed the world?

[Tevinter Soldier]

Putting restrictions on mages to lessen the chances of another Tevinter or magical misuse isn't necessarily oppression.

 

Also see BlueMagitek's post above yours.

 

No locking them up, stealing their children and and having a knife to their throat on the off chance they MAY do something wrong is though.

if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck, no amount of carefully worded speeches will convince me its a pony.

[Shadow Fox]

It is.. 

No reasonable restrictions*ex: regulation of Blood Magic,use of phylacteries to keep track of mages and mandatory education in the Circle tower* isn't oppression.

 

Excessive restrictions*ex: no families allowed,inability to leave the tower ever and forced tranquilazation* is.

[KainD]

No reasonable restrictions*ex: like all the citizens of Thedas have isn't oppression.

 

Excessive restrictions*ex: regulation of Blood Magic,use of phylacteries to keep track of mages and mandatory education in the Circle tower* ,no families allowed, inability to leave the tower ever and forced tranquilazation* is.

 

Fixed. 

[Shadow Fox]

Fixed. 

Ignoring that mages are by their very nature not like everyone else I see.

[KainD]

Ignoring that mages are by their very nature not like everyone else I see.

 

Well then dafuq? What's the half-a$sed non-working solutions for? You think you can actually co-exist happily without equality? Jesus.. Qunari, Tevinter and Red Templars - the only sane factions in Thedas. lol

[Shadow Fox]

Well then dafuq? What's the half-a$sed non-working solutions for? You think you can actually co-exist happily without equality? Jesus.. Qunari, Tevinter and Red Templars - the only sane factions in Thedas. lol

Mages by their very nature are more powerful and dangerous then non-mages therefore restrictions on mages are needed to equalize them.

 

Also gun control exists you know.

[KainD]

Mages by their very nature are more powerful and dangerous then non-mages therefore restrictions on mages are needed to equalize them.

 

Also gun control exists you know.

 

People have many differences that vary in strength, intelligence etc. and people have the ability use their strong sides to take advantage of other people who are weaker or less intelligent etc. Should we equalize that as well? 

 

I am against gun control.