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[Shadow Fox]

Why? A nation won't usually allow its citizens to own tanks while simultaneously providing its military with them.

This is because civillians are likely to abuse this power; such as blowing up something if he finds out his wife is sleeping with his best friend; while the military has checks and balances in place to prevent such and it can use these weapons to protect the population.

 

Is that hipocrisy or just common sense?

I think what Hinata means is The Andrastian religion condemning the use of Blood Magic as a capital sin...unless their soldiers use it is hypocrisy.

[Lulupab]

The only thing wrong with mageoracy of Tevinter is its slavery. There are aspects of mageocracy in other games too and without the slavery part, its actually quite flourishing and prospective as the usage of magic can only be controlled properly by magic users, not drug addicts. Sadly there is not enough information on Tevinter but I believe they are controlling magic much better than south of Thedas, they don't have Templars and when did you heard a Magister becoming an abomination? Until now, never.

 

That said if mages fight for freedom but don't enslave people then no it won't be another Tevinter.

[Wulfram]

A mage aristocracy is a fairly plausible result of mages being free.  They're inherently powerful, that's liable to give them a privileged position in society if they're not actively kept down.

 

However, making mages free isn't going to immediately break down all the taboos and hostility to mages that currently exists in White Chantry Thedas, making it unlikely that they would be able to accrue all that much power in the foreseeable future.

 

Also, I don't see any particular reason why a mage aristocracy would be worse than a regular one.  In fact, I'd expect it to be slightly better - the fact that mages can come from slaves and other humble origins should moderate it to some extent.  Of course this doesn't appear to be the case in Tevinter, but Tevinters seem to be basically always Chaotic Evil types like the Drow so whatever.

[The Elder King]

The only thing wrong with mageoracy of Tevinter is its slavery. There are aspects of mageocracy in other games too and without the slavery part, its actually quite flourishing and prospective as the usage of magic can only be controlled properly by magic users, not drug addicts. Sadly there is not enough information on Tevinter but I believe they are controlling magic much better than south of Thedas, they don't have Templars and when did you heard a Magister becoming an abomination? Until now, never.
 
That said if mages fight for freedom but don't enslave people then no it won't be another Tevinter.

1)Tevinter has templars. Lambert was a Teviter templar. They're under the control of the magisters/Black divine, by they exist and they can be used against mages.
2)I remember a codex where an experiment lead a magister to become an abomination. I'll try to find it later.

[Friera]

I went to bed and POW - 11 pages later! I enjoy reading this thread. Lots of different opinions *grabs popcorn*

[Samahl na Revas]

I don't think that free mages would build a Tevinter that functioned in very much the same manner to the old one simply due to the fact culture has changed much in the past millenia.

However, society is, by its very nature, competetitive. And magic is a tremendous advantage. If mages were free, then it would be inevitable that they would use their powers to pursue their own interests in way normal people could not compete. Therefore economical and political power would, slowly but surely transfer to the mage side until normals become second class citizens.

 

This can be observed. Every society that is not Andrastean or Qunari has free mages and, in all of these cultures, mages are the rulers. Tevinters has its magisters, the Dalish their Keepers, the Chansind the shamans, Rivain the seers.

So, yes, free mages equal magical domination of society.

 

I almost completely agreed with you but, there is always the exception. Plus from these societies that we have information about, it seems that it is always the people, non-mages who raise the mages to their position of power. It is tradition, the non-mages find them wise, the list goes on. However, the key element is that both humanly and other attributes are usually ascribed to these person because of their innate magical ability. As a return investment the people blindly assume some sort of protection & selflessness from these mages, usually their error.

 

Whereas, on the opposite side of the spectrum societies that shun mages project a lot of negative attribute onto mages. Nearly almost always mages in these societies are suspected of blood magic or falling victim to demons.

 

It is the same thing happening but on the opposite side of a spectrum. Of course, one has more players when it comes to competition as a ruling body and keeper of tradition (if they so choose) whereas the other does not.

 

//

 

There is a middle ground, and at the least a fourth path but, I do not care to share. Rather, I find this pattern and its echo amusing.

[Lulupab]

1)Tevinter has templars. Lambert was a Teviter templar. They're under the control of the magisters/Black divine, by they exist and they can be used against mages.
2)I remember a codex where an experiment lead a magister to become an abomination. I'll try to find it later.

 

Lol honestly, the Templars in Tevinter are quite few in number and even fewer have Templar abilities, they are mere soldiers. The wiki has sources about this and a few in fact.

 

My comment on magisters becoming abominations was not based on their power or anything, I meant so far it seems The Magisters and the mages of Tevinter in general have better control over themselves. The reason(s) behind that can be many things. Maybe they are not as desperate as southern mages or maybe magic can control magic better than anything else. Accidents can always happen, but not foolishness and desperateness. We should note that there is no source of any kind saying Tevinter had any problem with abominations during few thousand years of its reign but the southern lands had more than several incidents.

 

I'm not claiming anything as there is simply not enough evidence, but with the ones presented I go for Tevinter controls magic better than southern provinces.

[The Elder King]

Lol honestly, the Templars in Tevinter are quite few in number and even fewer have Templar abilities, they are mere soldiers. The wiki has sources about this and a few in fact.
 
My comment on magisters becoming abominations was not based on their power or anything, I meant so far it seems The Magisters and the mages of Tevinter in general have better control over themselves. The reason(s) behind that can be many things. Maybe they are not as desperate as southern mages or maybe magic can control magic better than anything else. Accidents can always happen, but not foolishness and desperateness. We should note that there is no source of any kind saying Tevinter had any problem with abominations during few thousand years of its reign but the southern lands had more than several incidents.
 
I'm not claiming anything as there is simply not enough evidence, but with the ones presented I go for Tevinter controls magic better than southern provinces.

I never said anything about the magisters' power . I just stated that there was a codex explaining that a magister became an abomination in an experiment. I agree that in Tevinter mages/magisters have good control, considering how much blood magic they use (and if I recall they summon demons a lot too). It doesn't change the fact that they might screw up (and a possible one created a world threat).
About templars, I only recall that it was stated that they don't have powers (though I wonder if it was always like this), not that they are few. Do you have any links?

[Lulupab]

I never said anything about the magisters' power . I just stated that there was a codex explaining that a magister became an abomination in an experiment. I agree that in Tevinter mages/magisters have good control, considering how much blood magic they use (and if I recall they summon demons a lot too). It doesn't change the fact that they might screw up (and a possible one created a world threat).
About templars, I only recall that it was stated that they don't have powers (though I wonder if it was always like this), not that they are few. Do you have any links?

 

No I meant in general because people seem to think the more powerful a mage is the lesser chance to become an abomination which is false. Its about how smart he is not powerful.

 

Anyway it seems I was kinda wrong as the sources indicate the Templars are quite weak as an order in Tevinter, there is nothing about their numbers. However the part that many of them are just soldiers without Templar abilities is true.

 

"Mages in the Tevinter Circle are controlled by high-ranking magisters instead of templars.

 

According to Fenris, templars are controlled by magisters and exist only to enforce the law. It does seem that the Imperial templars must act if a mage crosses the line and uses forbidden magics; they can even use the Right of Annulment. However, where that line is, is unclear since the use of blood magic seems to be common among the upper class, despite being officially forbidden.

 

Since the restoration of the mageocracy, the templars are under the authority of the magisters and thereby the Circle of Magi. Lambert used to be an Imperial templar and claimed that, in fact, the Templar Order has no power there.

 

The majority of Imperial templars lack the ability to counter magic. They are primarily soldiers"

 

From:

http://dragonage.wik...mperial_Chantry

[EmissaryofLies]

I went to bed and POW - 11 pages later! I enjoy reading this thread. Lots of different opinions *grabs popcorn*

 

It is still in its infancy. Just wait until it begins to hit a more serious and personal note. Then you can observe the fireworks. I brought gin and tonic, oodles of noodles, ramen, ricearonie and a smoothie from the Chinese Restaurant down the street. 

 

I likes Saturday 

[The Elder King]

No I meant in general because people seem to think the more powerful a mage is the lesser chance to become an abomination which is false. Its about how smart he is not powerful.
 
Anyway it seems I was kinda wrong as the sources indicate the Templars are quite weak as an order in Tevinter, there is nothing about their numbers. However the part that many of them are just soldiers without Templar abilities is true.
 
"Mages in the Tevinter Circle are controlled by high-ranking magisters instead of templars.
 
According to Fenris, templars are controlled by magisters and exist only to enforce the law. It does seem that the Imperial templars must act if a mage crosses the line and uses forbidden magics; they can even use the Right of Annulment. However, where that line is, is unclear since the use of blood magic seems to be common among the upper class, despite being officially forbidden.
 
Since the restoration of the mageocracy, the templars are under the authority of the magisters and thereby the Circle of Magi. Lambert used to be an Imperial templar and claimed that, in fact, the Templar Order has no power there.
 
The majority of Imperial templars lack the ability to counter magic. They are primarily soldiers"
 
From:
http://dragonage.wik...mperial_Chantry

Understood on the magister part.
On templars, it seems it is like I thought. They're not indipendant and completely under the magisters' control, which will use them as they wish.

[MisterJB]

The Chantry is not a nation, it is a religion. So doing what you say others shouldn't is nothing less than heresy. 

If we followed the Chant of Light to the letter, we wouldn't get anything done.

The Chant also says "Speak only the Word, sing only the Chant" Should people conduct dialogue through verses of the Chant too?

[SeekerOfLight]

On Tevinter, I'ld argue that the primary issue isn't the presence of a magocracy in itself, but that the problem is a cultural one . The people of Tevinter have been ruled by mages for centuries, the ones with power and influence are the mages. When the Magisters returned to power it was with the approval of the population.

 

Frankly, its the same reason why slavery still exists there, its tradition and culture and in my opinion, if a mass slave rebellion that resulted in the 1st Exalted March couldn't force a change in the society that stuck, I don't see anything else doing it.

 

To answer the OP, no I don't think that mage freedom equals other Tevinter Imperium. The mages in the lands of the White Divine don't have the benefit of centuries of being part of the elite classes in the various countries. Instead, the majority have been essentially in a kind of mass quarantine. Southern mages, just don't have the necessary leadership, financial or cultural support that could go into the creation of a Tevinter like state.

 

In fact, I think most of the national governments would be far more likely to see the mages as a destabilizing threat more than anything else.

[In Exile]

Also, I don't see any particular reason why a mage aristocracy would be worse than a regular one.  In fact, I'd expect it to be slightly better - the fact that mages can come from slaves and other humble origins should moderate it to some extent.  Of course this doesn't appear to be the case in Tevinter, but Tevinters seem to be basically always Chaotic Evil types like the Drow so whatever.

A mage aristocracy won't come from slaves. They'll come from other aristocrat mages. Everyone will forget their tragic roots within a regeneration or two. 

[Dean_the_Young]

JB covered it- free mages doesn't necessarily mean 'just like Tevinter in policies', but it is almost certain to lead to the rise of a mage elite. How fast and how high and how powerful this elite rise will depend on context and the political opposition/alliances along the way, plus culture, but the mages will have unique abilities and disproportionate advantages to rise in any competitive environment. The fact that the Circles have already reated a pan-mage identity will also work for solidarity and shared identity in the rise of a class.

 

Once the mages are high enough, of course, the limits to becoming more like Tevinter will gradually vanish. Which isn't to say it will- again, culture. I severely doubt that, say, slavery will come back. But the more powerful the mages become the more the barriers to misbehavior will be their own morality, and if there's anything we should be able to agree upon it's that mages are no more moral than anyone else. With need and desire, enabled by ability, then will come rationalization about why previous limits are no longer justified.

[Wulfram]

A mage aristocracy won't come from slaves. They'll come from other aristocrat mages. Everyone will forget their tragic roots within a regeneration or two. 

 

Magic isn't so simply hereditary, if it were the Templars would find things a lot easier.  There'd be a steady influx of new blood

[lil yonce]

Magic isn't so simply hereditary, if it were the Templars would find things a lot easier.  There'd be a steady influx of new blood

 

Yeah, they have a whole class in Tevinter just for this kind of mage, the Laetan class, but they're a pretty ruthless group, and maybe even more ruthless than the traditional mage elite Altus class. Still pulling for free mages and free markets though. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Even if it did lead to another imperium, you could always just hire the crows to take out the leadership and under leadership.

 

Only problem is the crows would charge you probably all of the royal treasury for such an act, just as a down payment. But still, everyone always underestimates the power of a sword or a well placed dagger from behind.

[Inprea]

Even if it did lead to another imperium, you could always just hire the crows to take out the leadership and under leadership.

 

Only problem is the crows would charge you probably all of the royal treasury for such an act, just as a down payment. But still, everyone always underestimates the power of a sword or a well placed dagger from behind.

The DA universe seems a bit strange to me due to that. In any other fantasy setting I can think of you don't use a warrior to neutralize a mage. You use a rogue of some type. A rogue could blind into the background so that the mages don't feel threatened, could observe from the shadows and if need be drop a mage in a flash.

 

With perhaps an exception made for a mage that never lets down their defense or is very observant.

 

To me using a warrior to guard a mage is like using the prey to guard the predator. The only way that works is if the prey greatly out numbers the predator or the predator is never allowed to reach full maturity. Thus the need for a whole lot of templars for one mage and restrict the mage's studies.

[Laughing_Man]

I would say that if you seperate religious fanaticism from the issue, you will be able to find other solutions that will be very lucrative to all sides involved.

 

Yes there would still be a need for various types of magical law enforcment agencies - that of course will make use of mages as well,

and unlike the Templars will have an Internal Affairs to watch for signs of corruption and abuse, etc.

An actual justice system is a must as well.

 

The potential rewards for a nation that will reach a state of equilibrium between caution and oppression when it comes to making use of magical talents, are almost unimaginable.

 

The "technologically advanced" Qunari will become very rapidly a primitive society in comparison to any nation that will manage to make use of magical talents and combine them with other scholars for scientific and medical research.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The DA universe seems a bit strange to me due to that. In any other fantasy setting I can think of you don't use a warrior to neutralize a mage. You use a rogue of some type. A rogue could blind into the background so that the mages don't feel threatened, could observe from the shadows and if need be drop a mage in a flash.

 

With perhaps an exception made for a mage that never lets down their defense or is very observant.

 

To me using a warrior to guard a mage is like using the prey to guard the predator. The only way that works is if the prey greatly out numbers the predator or the predator is never allowed to reach full maturity. Thus the need for a whole lot of templars for one mage and restrict the mage's studies.

 

That's pretty much how it works. How many mages do we see compared to the number of normal people? Even more so, how many mages can be inside a single circle compared to the population of the whole nation? Mages are in a small minority compared to the amount of normal people born who can train as rogues and warriors. It makes sense for you to hire warriors to guard yourself rather then mages because mages aren't common, it'd be impractical to set up a system like that. Even tevinter still uses warriors for the bulk of their forces, even templars are still used in force in tevinter to curtail and control the population of mages in the circle who might get too rowdy and heretical.

 

It's so much easier to just bribe a guard to kill their master, then it is to bother raising an army to take them down. Especially in a climate of back stabbing amoralist which constitutes most political spheres.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

A phylactery is powered by a mages blood, and is therefore, by the Chantry's own definition, blood magic. 

 

Where is such stated?

[metalfenix]

I would say that if you seperate religious fanaticism from the issue, you will be able to find other solutions that will be very lucrative to all sides involved.

 

Yes there would still be a need for various types of magical law enforcment agencies - that of course will make use of mages as well,

and unlike the Templars will have an Internal Affairs to watch for signs of corruption and abuse, etc.

An actual justice system is a must as well.

 

The potential rewards for a nation that will reach a state of equilibrium between caution and oppression when it comes to making use of magical talents, are almost unimaginable.

 

The "technologically advanced" Qunari will become very rapidly a primitive society in comparison to any nation that will manage to make use of magical talents and combine them with other scholars for scientific and medical research.

 

I agree 100% . Just imagine a government force like the templars, but without the crazy religious dominance of the chantry...they could keep the mages on line, without having them confined on circles and have them made tranquils. They could deal with the abominations and such, and still take advantages of the magic research. Proper magic institutions would be awesome too.

 

And I fail to see the mages being the powerhouses on modern thedas, specially with templar rogues backstabbing my mage hawke and rendering him from full health to zero in one second. This is why tevinter will not be an imperium again, I'm amazed how the other nations didn't invade tevinter yet.

 

EDIT: Just to add, the mages should be keep out from higher positions on government just to make sure that they won't make another tevinter again, but as long as you keep them oppresed, many anders will rise, and if the mages oppress the non mages like tevinter, another andraste may rise too. They need to find a balance on this or the war will never end.

[General TSAR]

Free mages equals another Tevinter imperium?

 

YES.

 

THEY MUST BE DESTROYED.