49 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Theory - Blood magic is more potent but a very strong and trained mage can use mind control without blood magic. Most mages just don't have the power/skill to do it. Example of this are the dreamers, which would mean that dreamers are not some special dna but merely a mage with grotesque power level that are rare. Thoughts?

[DrBlingzle]

what evidence are you basing this on?

[Br3admax]

I don't really think so. Somethings are just beyond the grasp of magic outside of blood magic. Blood magic also isn't super strong magic, it's using ones on life force as a means to cast spells and most Templars just have no resistance to that. On its own, however, it's magic like any other. Things like mind control come from manipulating others blood, which automatically makes it blood magic. And as to dreamers, they aren't super powerful as in having actual power output. They can see the stitches in the Veil and the Fade that others can't and even manipulate them, but they can easily be killed. Well as easy as any other mage. 

[Hellion Rex]

The extent of non-blood magic mental manipulation is the use of spells like Sleep, Horror, and Waking Nightmare. So, mental manipulation just short of actual control of a person's mind.

[KainD]

what evidence are you basing this on?

Just logic, that's why I ask for other opinions. I don't think Feynriel used blood magic to mind control bandits into killing each other.
I also think that dreamers can enter the fade without lyrium because they have huge mana supply so they don't need a ton of lyrium to assist them in the ritual they can do it on their own, where's weaker mages need that lyrium because they don't have enough mana on their own, or they use blood magic which is more potent like Jowan did.

[Hellion Rex]

Just logic, that's why I ask for other opinions. I don't think Feynriel used blood magic to mind control bandits into killing each other.
I also think that dreamers can enter the fade without lyrium because they have huge mana supply so they don't need a ton of lyrium to assist them in the ritual they can do it on their own, where's weaker mages need that lyrium because they don't have enough mana on their own, or they use blood magic which is more potent like Jowan did.

Ok, I can see what you mean, but I'm not entirely sure Feynriel can project his consciousness into others/take control while the subjects are awake.

[KainD]

I don't really think so. Somethings are just beyond the grasp of magic outside of blood magic. Blood magic also isn't super strong magic, it's using ones on life force as a means to cast spells and most Templars just have no resistance to that. On its own, however, it's magic like any other. Things like mind control come from manipulating others blood, which automatically makes it blood magic. And as to dreamers, they aren't super powerful as in having actual power output. They can see the stitches in the Veil and the Fade that others can't and even manipulate them, but they can easily be killed. Well as easy as any other mage.

My theory is that anything that can be done with blood magic, can also be done without, but some specific tasks are too mana demanding while blood magic is a more potent power source, that's why most mages cant do it without blood magic at all, unless they use tons of lyrium to assist them instead.

[KainD]

The extent of non-blood magic mental manipulation is the use of spells like Sleep, Horror, and Waking Nightmare. So, mental manipulation just short of actual control of a person's mind.

Basically less demanding mental magic than outright mind domination.

[Br3admax]

My theory is that anything that can be done with blood magic, can also be done without, but some specific tasks are too mana demanding while blood magic is a more potent power source, that's why most mages cant do it without blood magic at all, unless they use tons of lyrium to assist them instead.

Except blood magic isn't more potent, so your theory is defunct from the onset. Mind control comes from controlling the blood of others, not manipulating their minds. 

[KainD]

Ok, I can see what you mean, but I'm not entirely sure Feynriel can project his consciousness into others/take control while the subjects are awake.

Well maybe if he was there in person after his training with the magister he could. But he was all the way in Tevinter, I don't see how you can do it directly at that distance.

[DrBlingzle]

Just logic, that's why I ask for other opinions. I don't think Feynriel used blood magic to mind control bandits into killing each other.

well in that case I think it's unlikely but possible. The mind control we've seen so far comes from the manipulation of blood, making it blood magic. Of course there is nothing to prove that mind control can't be achieved through other means.

[KainD]

Except blood magic isn't more potent, so your theory is defunct from the onset. Mind control comes from controlling the blood of others, not manipulating their minds.

But blood magic is more potent that one is true according to the lore. Tons of lyrium vs one person to enter the fade, merely all Tevinter lyrium supply to enter the fade physically vs hundreds of sacrifice.

[Br3admax]

But blood magic is more potent that one is true according to the lore. Tons of lyrium vs one person to enter the fade, merely all Tevinter lyrium supply to enter the fade physically vs hundreds of sacrifice.

That's because blood magic also uses the power of demons, not because it can make your fireballs totally 'splode more. The Veil is thinner becasue 

 

A ) Demons can claw threw more

B ) Death and Pain weaken the Veil more than magic alone

[KainD]

well in that case I think it's unlikely but possible. The mind control we've seen so far comes from the manipulation of blood, making it blood magic. Of course there is nothing to prove that mind control can't be achieved through other means.

I don't think that manipulating blood is the key to mind control. As pointed out here sleep, fear can be achieved without.

[KainD]

That's because blood magic also uses the power of demons, not because it can make your fireballs totally 'splode more.

No using demons help is different completely separate sourse, Jowan didn't do it.

[Br3admax]

No using demons help is different completely separate sourse, Jowan didn't do it.

False, it still uses the powers of demons, he just didn't learn it from them. 

 

I don't think that manipulating blood is the key to mind control. As pointed out here sleep, fear can be achieved without.

 

None of those things involve mind control at all. 

[KainD]

False, it still uses the powers of demons, he just didn't learn it from them.

None of those things involve mind control at all.

Learning from a chef how to cook, doesn't mean calling the chef to cook for you every time.

Those things are undoubtedly mind control. Fear is a mental thing.

[Br3admax]

Learning from a chef how to cook, doesn't mean calling the chef to cook for you every time.

Those things are undoubtedly mind control. Fear is a mental thing.

1) Contradicting what's in game to support your theory doesn't make you right. Either way, your analogy is way off. 

2) No, because they don't involve controlling a mind. That's like saying psychoactive drugs are the same thing as hypnosis.    

[EmissaryofLies]

It's magic, baby!

 

Anything's possible.

 

Though I am not so sure. It may just be the blood mages and the somniari alone that can accomplish such feats. We need much more information on the subject. 

Far too much is simply left to the imagination. 

[KainD]

1) Contradicting what's in game to support your theory doesn't make you right. Either way, your analogy is way off.
2) No, because they don't involve controlling a mind. That's like saying psychoactive drugs are the same thing as hypnosis.

Blood magic does not involve demons, 100% correct. You can learn blood magic on your own or from a book or fellow mage, demon is just a teacher, never the participant, unless you use the power of magic to specifically summon and control them.

Those are indeed more or less the same.

[Br3admax]

Blood magic does not involve demons, 100% correct. You can learn blood magic on your own or from a book or fellow mage, demon is just a teacher, never the participant, unless you use the power of magic to specifically summon and control them.

Those are indeed more or less the same.

1) Not supported in the game. Typing 100% correct afterwards doesn't make it true. The mechanisms of using blood magic involve demons. Every instance of blood magic being used, involved demons. Even Merrill's breaking of the barrier on Sundermount involved a demon. 

2) No. No they aren't. They aren't the same in anyway. 

 

 

If anything, you've proven why no one should really be having this conversation if you're just going to make things up to support your argument. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Wish the devs would come in here and settle some of these issues emphatically. 

[KainD]

1) Not supported in the game. Typing 100% correct afterwards doesn't make it true. The mechanisms of using blood magic involve demons. Every instance of blood magic being used, involved demons. Even Merrill's breaking of the barrier on Sundermount involved a demon.
2) No. No they aren't. They aren't the same in anyway.


If anything, you've proven why no one should really be having this conversation if you're just going to make things up to support your argument.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that I've been on the forums with you enough, for you to know that I never make up things not supported by the lore. My theories can be wrong but I make sure that they are always possible according to the lore, I am a big lore nutt.

The games make it very clear that blood magic does not use demons, And I cant believe that I even need to say this. Jowan did not use demons, Morrigan did not, Warden did not, Hawke did not etc. Or tell me how demons were involved and what supports your claim.

[Br3admax]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that I've been on the forums with you enough, for you to know that I never make up things not supported by the lore. My theories can be wrong but I make sure that they are always possible according to the lore, I am a big lore nutt.

The games make it very clear that blood magic does not use demons, And I cant believe that I even need to say this. Jowan did not use demons, Morrigan did not, Warden did not, Hawke did not etc. Or tell me how demons were involved and what supports your claim.

1. I've been on the forums long enough with you to know that you make up things all the time, honestly.

 

2. Jowan did not, never proven. Morrigan did not, never proven if you are speaking of the Dark Ritual, this most likely involved magic from the Taint, which is completely separate and unrelated to Blood Magic proper in anyway. Warden did not, never proven and this is gameplay which is segregated from story in most instances. Hawke did not, never proven and see before. Instances where blood magic are actually used and explained, all involved demons.