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[reapergrimm]

A thought just gripped me and it won't let go. This is my first time posting on these forums so I have no idea if somebody else has thought of this, but I want to talk about it all the same. I think that the Maker and Fen'harel could be the same being.

 

The first think that made me think of this possibility is the supposed betrayal of the Tevinter magisters by the Old Gods. Why would Dumat and the others goad living mages to trespass unto heaven, when they very well should have known the consequences for such an action? Even if there were some reason for tricking the magisters, what could the Old Gods get out of it? Even if there was some sort of vendetta against the Golden City, they should have realized that the magisters would be twisted into darkspawn and seek them out because of their supposed mental connection through dreams.

 

Second, Yavana definitely revealed in the Silent Grove that dragons enter states of prolonged hibernation that can last for centuries, even millennia. Which would explain as to why the Old Gods slumber beneath the earth, not as a punishment as the Chantry would like all of Thedas to believe, but as a means to conserve power. Yavana also revealed that the most powerful dragons do not wake easily, and significant power is required to revive them.

 

Avernus hinted at the untapped power of the Taint in Soldier's Peak, and it could fulfil that requirement. Some could argue that this is the goal of the Old Gods, to create a race with the power to reawaken them from their slumber, but the question here is: why? Why would the Old Gods seek to taint themselves and drive themselves mad? We know from the Darkspawn Chronicles that Archdemons are indeed capable of lucid (if we could call it that) communication through the Taint, but the motivation for Blights is... destruction. Why? Why nurture one race to create another so you can destroy everything? And the darkspawn only stop looking for the Old Gods once they find one. One. If a Blight succeeded, only one Old God would be free, and the others remain imprisoned. Hardly what I would call effective planning.

 

This brings me to believe that it was not the Old Gods who drew the magisters to violate heaven, but Fen'harel. Fen'harel revels in deceit and death. For a trickster such as him, it would be a game to masquerade as another god and fool mortals into doing something incredibly dangerous. If Corypheus' ramblings are to believed in Legacy, the "Golden" City was already black upon the magister's arrival. Some could argue that by merely travelling to the City while alive would destroy it, but the overall feeling of betrayal is the signature of Fen'harel. According to the Chantry, the Old Gods betrayed humanity only once, when the magisters invaded heaven. Fen'harel holds no loyalty except to himself, and as such, deceives everybody for amusement.

 

Now how does that make Fen'harel the Maker? It once again, boils down to his nature. Fen'harel has taken everything from the Elves due to his sealing of the Creators and the Forgotten Ones and has also destroyed much of Tevinter, so he needs a new game to play. The First Blight rages for a century or two, and Fen'harel approaches another mortal through her dreams. He tells Andraste that he is a forgotten god (by every single being and race in Thedas and that the spirits of the Fade never mentioned) who made the mortal world, the Fade and everything in between. He guides her to march on Tevinter and supposedly aids her without question after she convinces him to help humanity "once again".

 

The Exalted March goes on as history dictated, and Andraste dies by Hassarian's blade on the pyre. One would think that event is another of Fen'harels tricks, who can say? But what happens next is a greater prize to the Dread Wolf. The Cult of Andraste is formed and Fen'harel sees another opportunity to have some fun. He waits this time, after seeing how much he has changed the world through his lies. His patience pays off as the Chantry forms and it is now the mages who are shackled by society. He knows that this new rule will not last forever, and that eventually, the mages will rebel. It is, for lack of a better word, human nature.

 

And this is the point in history that we, the players and fans of the Dragon Age series, are introduced to this world. My thoughts on what might happen in the Inquisition? Fen'harel is the one Sandal mentions that will "rise", that he is the one tearing the veil. My only piece of proof is The Mask of Fen'harel that was introduced in the live-action web series Dragon Age: Redemption. The Mask had the ability to open tears in the Veil, much like what is happening in Inquisition, and that the Saarebas of Redemption spoke to Fen'harel as if the Dread Wolf could hear him.

 

That is my rant. It is a very complicated thought that came to me this morning and what I suspect is going on in the Dragon Age Series. I just wanted to get it out there, and I welcome the thoughts of anyone who posts here. Feel free to derail my train of thought, show me I missed something. So long as we can keep is civil. We all know out there be trolls.

[Ap0crypha]

Interesting theory. I'd toyed with the thought that the Old Gods were the Forgotten Ones and that their "song" was an attempt to escape their prison, but I'd never considered Fen'harel posing as the Maker before. Given how similar he apparently is to Loki, the Norse god of trickery, and what we know of him, posing as a benevolent deity to watch as everyone tears themselves apart over him does seem like something he'd do.

 

I like it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Thedas is a much better place because of the Cult of Andraste replacing the Cult of the Old Gods. It doesn't really seem like his style to help overthrow the most brutal regime Thedas has ever known. Modern Tevinter is worse than any other human nation in Thedas but even that place is much better than Ancient Tevinter.

[TheForgottenOne]

I share the same belief.

One thing I wonder is what happened to the Elven Pantheon. If we assume that the Forgotten Ones were the Old Gods, we can say that they are looking to strike back at Fen'Harel for their supposed betrayal. Are the Elven Gods dead??

Based on DA: O's Dark Ritual I believe that the Old Gods weren't always evil. If this is true then the taint wouldn't have been Dumat's idea of their liberation.

Corypheus isn't the only one who says that the Tevinter magisters were tricked. In DAO's Witch Hunt DLC, the statue in the Circle tower says something similar. Also in a mission given by a templar (Ser Otto, I think his name is) where we are supposed to free an elven orphanage in Denerim from demons, the boss who is a rage demon yells at him saying there is no golden city before killing him. This suggests a trickster at work.

We don't know for sure why Andraste did what she did. Maybe people's belief in the Maker does make him stronger. The Circle came after the Exalted March. Is it just to keep mages in check or is it because the someone didn't want another attack on the Golden/Black City.

Finally, why did Morrigan want to preserve the soul of an Old God?? What part to they have to play in the coming future. Because the only place Old Gods come into apart from Blights is Fen'Harel and the Maker.

[reapergrimm]

Thedas is a much better place because of the Cult of Andraste replacing the Cult of the Old Gods. It doesn't really seem like his style to help overthrow the most brutal regime Thedas has ever known. Modern Tevinter is worse than any other human nation in Thedas but even that place is much better than Ancient Tevinter.

 

I agree. Thedas is better off with the Chantry than the Ancient Tevinter Imperium. But Thedas is still tearing itself apart, politically and physically with the sundering of the Veil. And from what little scraps of info Bioware has released and leaked, there definitely is someone deliberately causing the massive Veil Tears. I just think that Fen'harel could be behind. But who knows? Maybe it's Justice/Vengeance trying to "fix" the world. And why is this happening? Because of the Chantry's treatment of mages for nearly 1000 years.

 

They were slaves in all but name only. Maybe they did have more freedom than actual slaves, but violently taking away children and locking them away because they had magic and "could" be a threat for almost a millennium couldn't have lasted forever. The house of cards is falling, and someone or someTHING is taking advantage of it. That is all we know, and we can only speculate as to who until we play the game. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I agree that Fen'Harel is a likely villain in DAI but I don't think it's fair to compare to mages to slaves. Especially in all countries over all 900 years of the Chantry's existence because treatment of mages have varied over places and time. Plus why would the Circle System be a greater prize to Fen'Harel than Magisters dominating mundanes over all the areas of Thedas they conquered?

[reapergrimm]

I agree that Fen'Harel is a likely villain in DAI but I don't think it's fair to compare to mages to slaves. Especially in all countries over all 900 years of the Chantry's existence because treatment of mages have varied over places and time. Plus why would the Circle System be a greater prize to Fen'Harel than Magisters dominating mundanes over all the areas of Thedas they conquered?

 

I can see why you don't see mages as slaves. They aren't in many ways. But they are similar enough in the right ways that mages in Thedas see themselves as slaves. But there are also many mages like Wynne who see the Circle for it's purpose and also accept and support it. In the end, it boils to your perspective, which is what the series is building into. We have seen atrocities of Blood Magic and the abuse of Templars. Nobody is devoid of blame here.

 

I don't think the Circle would be a prize. I would think that Fen'Harel would see the Circle more as a source of amusement due to the role reversal of Ancient Tevinter and a potential tool for future schemes. If he is behind the Demon Invasion, then the Circle and Templars both have played into his hands (claws?) to whatever end he desires. We have to remember that his mindset and logic is radically different from a mortal's but also accept what are his defining traits. If nothing else, he is a spirit of deceit and betrayal that loves to see others suffer.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I can see why you don't see mages as slaves. They aren't in many ways. But they are similar enough in the right ways that mages in Thedas see themselves as slaves. But there are also many mages like Wynne who see the Circle for it's purpose and also accept and support it. In the end, it boils to your perspective, which is what the series is building into. We have seen atrocities of Blood Magic and the abuse of Templars. Nobody is devoid of blame here.

 

I don't think the Circle would be a prize. I would think that Fen'Harel would see the Circle more as a source of amusement due to the role reversal of Ancient Tevinter and a potential tool for future schemes. If he is behind the Demon Invasion, then the Circle and Templars both have played into his hands (claws?) to whatever end he desires. We have to remember that his mindset and logic is radically different from a mortal's but also accept what are his defining traits. If nothing else, he is a spirit of deceit and betrayal that loves to see others suffer.

 

That's true. So it just strikes me as odd he'd be particular amused by the suffering of mages if they don't suffer as much or as often (because there isn't as many) as slaves did in Ancient Tevinter.

[Tevinter Soldier]

didnt Gaider state the elven gods and the maker were two different things?

[Tevinter Soldier]

If you could find a quote, that'd be cool. It's what I'm inclined to believe. The only thing that confuses me is the statues in Dalish camps.. statues of Andruil, Sylaise, Ghilan'nain, etc.. will appear in various Tevinter ruins (in addition to that winged Falon'Din statue showing up all over the place). Sylaise statues also show up in chantries. There's even a statue of Ghilan'nain outside Flemeth's house.

 

I don't know if this is all deliberate, or just a matter of reusing resources and designer laziness.

 

Granted this is cryptic Gaider talk but its as close as we would get to confirmation:

 

 

 

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

 

http://social.biowar.../index/508455/3

[HunterX6]

I prefer the chantry maker story. Though I prefer that he got tricked and sealed by Fen like the others. Even better if he was the son of the maker and his mother was one of the evil forgotten ones? Will explain why he is willing to help but with a price. Though most likely the game will go through some zeus,buddha or atheist way which is overrated and over use. (mass effect,god of war,zelda, etc.will stop there)

[reapergrimm]

That's true. So it just strikes me as odd he'd be particular amused by the suffering of mages if they don't suffer as much or as often (because there isn't as many) as slaves did in Ancient Tevinter.

 

He'd still be amused. You never know what makes a trickster smile. Their logic and sense of humour is kind of random.

 

Granted this is cryptic Gaider talk but its as close as we would get to confirmation:

 

 

 

 

http://social.biowar.../index/508455/3

See, I'm new to the forums and I wasn't going to go digging through all the threads for this info. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I still think my idea could work. I never claimed that the Old Gods or the Creators MADE the world, just that Fen'Harel could have posed as the Maker to Andraste. And now that I have read David's post, I still think that Fen'Harel could pose as the Maker while the Maker himself does exist. I think only David Gaider knows how Thedas was made and that he'll reveal it when the series is at a stage for that information to be unveiled.

 

Maker, Old Gods, Creators and Forgotten Ones. There is both evidence and possibility that they all exist. So little is known of the Fade, spirits and all that encompasses the world. If The Masked Empire is to be a part of the official Canon, then there are also dimensions beyond the Fade that are virtually unknown (this was hinted at in Witch Hunt, but the details could be clearer). Who knows what lurks within the folds of creation's fabric? Where do gods go when they leave a world behind? We'll just have to be patient and hope Inquisition answers some of these questions.

[HunterX6]

He'd still be amused. You never know what makes a trickster smile. Their logic and sense of humour is kind of random.

 

See, I'm new to the forums and I wasn't going to go digging through all the threads for this info. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I still think my idea could work. I never claimed that the Old Gods or the Creators MADE the world, just that Fen'Harel could have posed as the Maker to Andraste. And now that I have read David's post, I still think that Fen'Harel could pose as the Maker while the Maker himself does exist. I think only David Gaider knows how Thedas was made and that he'll reveal it when the series is at a stage for that information to be unveiled.

 

Maker, Old Gods, Creators and Forgotten Ones. There is both evidence and possibility that they all exist. So little is known of the Fade, spirits and all that encompasses the world. If The Masked Empire is to be a part of the official Canon, then there are also dimensions beyond the Fade that are virtually unknown (this was hinted at in Witch Hunt, but the details could be clearer). Who knows what lurks within the folds of creation's fabric? Where do gods go when they leave a world behind? We'll just have to be patient and hope Inquisition answers some of these questions.

 

I can live with this. Just like my post above, I just hope that fen is too wicked,corrupted and just insanely twisted that he actually tricked all of them and sealed them. Something like that at least. I just want the game to have some kind of twist but not so much to where everything from the other dragon age was false. Such as the maker not existing, the taint coming from deep in the earth instead of the magister story, etc. I want them to stick to what is already know but maybe with a bit of changes that was hidden from the actual truth.

[OctagonalSquare]

I personally think that the Maker and Fen'harel are the same, the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are the same, and that all of them are actually Fade spirits that had nothing to do with the origin of the world.

[Mister Chompski]

I doubt it.

[Knight of Dane]

Neither exist at all

[rolson00]

a great view point one i hadnt considered, but David Gaider is the mac daddy on all story decisions and could decide on something else entirely . 

[reapergrimm]

a great view point one i hadnt considered, but David Gaider is the mac daddy on all story decisions and could decide on something else entirely . 

His mind is a bit like a maze in regards to the mythos, isn't it? This is just a thought I had given the lore we the players know, but there is ample room for the truth to be something entirely different or exactly as the games state. 

[Samahl na Revas]

I didn't go read what you wrote entirely yet, but will. However, I just wanted to say I had this thought but it came from something in TME which I will not spoil. And I had thought Andraste a fool, which I still believe she is or the Chantry's clouded image of her at least for me points towards that direction. I will now read what you wrote and others...

 

I read what you wrote, our thoughts differ but at least they crossed at one instance. Now to read what others have written in response.

 

@Tevinter Soldier, I took that Gaider quote to mean that Elven gods for the most part were spirits, though I would not imply that was his meaning. Of course I left in the possibility that not all were spirits. What world were they born of?

 

back to reading more.

 

@reapergrimm Fen'harel posing as the maker our thoughts cross again. This is were I "was", I'm waiting on the Dragon Age: Last Flight and hanging on the synopis "The Blight is over. Or so it seems" as a potential revelation. (back to reading more)

 

This thread ended prematurely. I'll go look for another interesting one then.