623 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@Daemul: I was refering to Ryrienas post from the previous page, and had to admit that the VS got less content in ME2 (did not point that out).

 

Miranda might be able to handle the shadow broker network, but she whould not be able to uncover the crucible plans, since she does not possess Liaras abilities and knowledge regarding the protheans.

 

Anyway, hate discussions like are useless.

 

I disagree on any so-called 'abilities' for Protheans that Liara might possess. The only real 'ability' is the Cipher, possessed by Shepard. Knowledge might be a hindrance, but I doubt it would stop Miranda. That said, Miranda isn't the type to focus on the Protheans or history. She'd likely have Liara brought in to follow up on leads, since she has other things to focus on.

 

And not really. You really can have a productive discussion on why you dislike or despise a certain character. I do it with Ashley, Tali, and, to a comparatively lesser extent, Liara and EDI in ME3.

[DeathScepter]

I would incorporate her role into that of the SB. She's much more suited for the role than Liara, but I wouldn't have her be it per se.

 

 

a lot of people would be better as the Shadow Broker than Liara.

[Han Shot First]

In truth no one would be better than Liara as Shadow Broker, because had Bioware instead decided to have LotSB focus on another character, that character's role in ME3 is unlikely to have been radically different than Liara's. No matter who the Shadow Broker was it was probably going to be shoved to the background. Using Miranda as an example, I doubt if she had been made Shadow Broker that the writers would have given the Shadow Broker network a larger role in the plot of Mass Effect 3. Like Liara's SB network, it would probably have been relegated to finding the Crucible plans and thereafter serving no function beyond providing emails for Shepard to read

 

In short the problem with the Shadow Broker network in ME3 wasn't the character chosen to lead it, it was the decision by the writing team to not have it play a role in the plot after finding the Crucible plans.

[N172]

You really can have a productive discussion on why you dislike or despise a certain character. I do it with Ashley, Tali, and, to a comparatively lesser extent, Liara and EDI in ME3.

You may point out why you dislike a character, but for the most part it is not possible to disprove (which is needed for discussion) any of the reasons.

 

For example:

I dislike Thane because he is nothing but a standard dying-character, as i have seen plenty before ME.

I also dislike Garrus because of that "No Shepard without Vakarian"-thing, he never was that important.

 

Someone else might say that they never have seen a character like Thane or that Garrus is "awsome because he is cool" (or something like that).

Liara never appeared creepy to me, even when i did a Kaidanmance (first playthrough) and Talimance (the reason i switched to MShep back when i first played ME2).

 

No amount of arguing will ever change such things because it is all personal preference, so it is useless to argue in the first place.

[Daemul]

@Daemul: I was refering to Ryrienas post from the previous page, and had to admit that the VS got less content in ME2 (did not point that out).

Ah, I didn't see that. Apologies.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In truth no one would be better than Liara as Shadow Broker, because had Bioware instead decided to have LotSB focus on another character, that character's role in ME3 is unlikely to have been radically different than Liara's. No matter who the Shadow Broker was it was probably going to be shoved to the background. Using Miranda as an example, I doubt if she had been made Shadow Broker that the writers would have given the Shadow Broker network a larger role in the plot of Mass Effect 3. Like Liara's SB network, it would probably have been relegated to finding the Crucible plans and thereafter serving no function beyond providing emails for Shepard to read

 

In short the problem with the Shadow Broker network in ME3 wasn't the character chosen to lead it, it was the decision by the writing team to not have it play a role in the plot after finding the Crucible plans.

 

I agree by half a measure; I understand what you're saying in regards to the SB plot being short in ME3 and acknowledge it as a problem. I agree that in the scripting and plot design of the game, there was a fundamental problem that wouldn't be solved by substituting another character. It would be the same problem with a different person.

 

However, I do also hold Liara's role as the SB to be unbelievable in character growth and change. I still don't see why she had to be the SB. I'm not making a case for other Squadmates here; I'm questioning her importance to that plot in this aspect, which I find to be highly contrived. I hold Liara's relevance to the plot of the entire series to have nearly evaporated after finding out about Ilos. Sure, have her pop up a few places to help you out with Prothean research, or even make her a Prothean information expert that isn't the SB or in an intel field and help you out with finding Crucible related information. But outside that, her role in the plot strikes me as being problematic and uncharacteristic growth and development.

 

So I agree with you that part of the problem with the SB (and not an insignificant part) in ME3 was with how it was handled by the writing team, but I also maintain that the other part of the problem was on the character chosen to lead it, though this is more of an in-game, non-meta complaint compared to the design and writing of the first one.

[Steelcan]

Oh is it discuss Liara!hate time again already?

its always Liara!hate time

[grey_wind]

In truth no one would be better than Liara as Shadow Broker, because had Bioware instead decided to have LotSB focus on another character, that character's role in ME3 is unlikely to have been radically different than Liara's. No matter who the Shadow Broker was it was probably going to be shoved to the background. Using Miranda as an example, I doubt if she had been made Shadow Broker that the writers would have given the Shadow Broker network a larger role in the plot of Mass Effect 3. Like Liara's SB network, it would probably have been relegated to finding the Crucible plans and thereafter serving no function beyond providing emails for Shepard to read

 

In short the problem with the Shadow Broker network in ME3 wasn't the character chosen to lead it, it was the decision by the writing team to not have it play a role in the plot after finding the Crucible plans.

Not necessarily. The big problem with Liara's role as the Shadow Broker is that the devs were also determined to make her a squadmate. By necessity, that had to minimize her role as the Shadow Broker because there's no way to have her be both a competent squadmate and a competent Broker simultaneously. Add in the fact that she's a Prothean expert who also discovers the plans to our salvation, and giving her any more relevance via the Shadow Broker network would have made her completely overshadow every other character including the protagonist.

[Steelcan]

I still think that Mary Sue is the best description for Liara in ME, especially 3, despite the terms nebulousness

[grey_wind]

I still think that Mary Sue is the best description for Liara in ME, especially 3, despite the terms nebulousness

I'd say the term defines both Liara (especially in ME3) and Traynor.

[Mordokai]

I still think that Mary Sue is the best description for Liara in ME, especially 3, despite the terms nebulousness

 

[Steelcan]

Plot dependent skills, everyone in universe likes/respects her, biggest slice of content, no opportunity for her and Shep to fall out, plot armor thicker than a Panzer, I mean really...

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

This is incongruous. I don't think your meme applies to what you think it applies to.

 

Plot dependent skills, everyone in universe likes/respects her, biggest slice of content, no opportunity for her and Shep to fall out, plot armor thicker than a Panzer, I mean really...

 

Panzers didn't have comparatively thick armor, it's just that the allies were notoriously cheap when arming their own tanks.

 

Otherwise, carry on.

[Steelcan]

You know what I meant. Thats what's important

[Mordokai]

Plot dependent skills, everyone in universe likes/respects her, biggest slice of content, no opportunity for her and Shep to fall out, plot armor thicker than a Panzer, I mean really...

 

I could go on why I disagree with you, but I see Massively is still around and even without him, trying to convince you is like battling an uphill battle in a rain, wind and who knows what else.

 

So yeah... Inigo Montoya disagrees. That's all you need to know.

[von uber]

Panzers didn't have comparatively thick armor, it's just that the allies were notoriously cheap when arming their own tanks.

 

 

 

At the risk of a terminal derailment, it actually came down to command and control and tactical flexability. Allied tanks (especially early war) tended to be much heavily armoured and armed (although a two man turret was a major drawback).

[AlanC9]

Right. Wasn't there a case of one of the French heavies blowing up a dozen German tanks in a single  battle?

[N172]

If there is a Mary Sue in mass effect, and i doubt that, it is Commander Shepard.

[von uber]

Right. Wasn't there a case of one of the French heavies blowing up a dozen German tanks in a single  battle?

 

Yeah. The Panzer 1 and 2 which they used during the Battle of France were woefully undergunned and armoured compared to the equivalent (in particular) French and Birtish tanks. That is where the Germans really discovered the use f the '88 as an anti-tank gun, because they had to - even their own standard AT gun the 37mm PAK 36 (they used to call it the 'doorknocker' as that was all it was good for) was also shown to be ineffetcive against them.

[Sir DeLoria]

Why can so many Liaramancers not accept that their favorite character has flaws? Yes, Liara is a Mary Sue, yes she obviously has plot-armor what's the big deal? Accept it and move on.

[KaiserShep]

It's pretty obvious to me how the writers saw her when ME2's reintroduction to her character varies simply between hug or kiss. I've said it before and I guess I'll say it one more time, this is why I think Mass Effect would have been pretty awesome with an approval system of some kind. I'd love to be a dick to characters at one point in the game, and have it be reflected later. Like if I wasn't particularly nice to Miranda in ME2, and when finding her on the Citadel, her greeting is less friendly.

[Barquiel]

If there is a Mary Sue in mass effect, and i doubt that, it is Commander Shepard.

 

It seems "Mary Sue" just means "A character I don't like gets attention"...

[Steelcan]

While the term is very nebulous, there are certain hallmarks, plot armor, check, in universe recognition and likeability, check, ever increasing plot skills arbitrarily handed out, check, greater attention than other characters, check.

[DuskWanderer]

It seems "Mary Sue" just means "A character I don't like gets attention"...

 

Having attention is one of the main hallmarks of a Mary Sue, but by no means is it the only one. Neither does someone liking or not liking make a Mary Sue.

 

Mary Sue's have the following traits, and Liara has them too

 

Lack of Personality - Liara's character can be summed up in a sentence: "She exists to be Shepard's canon soft-hearted bestie." She doesn't undergo any permanent evolution in thought or personality

 

Everyone loves her, except the jerks - Kaidan's nice to Liara, Ashley's nice to Liara (and she doesn't really care for aliens), Garrus is nice to her. The only people who aren't nice to her are Wreav and Javik, two who are called out for being dicks (and not just in general, specifically about her)

 

Incorruptable - Despite having all the knowledge of the Shadow Broker, she's adamant about it "not falling into evil hands" and she never sullies herself with all the dirt she has.

 

The Shilling - Dear God, the shilling. In the Genesis comic, Shepard was very normal about describing his squadmates (Ashley was brave, Kaidan was a good by-the-book guy), but Liara was "as gifted as she was beautiful" and gave Shepard "a great fondness of the asari"

 

The Love(ish) attachment - Liara will always be Shepard's friend. No matter if you ignore her, no matter if you're a jerk to her, Shepard will still hug her. 

 

Spotlight Stealing Squad - Dear God, there's really no need for her outside of one element, and she's still constantly around, getting DLC after DLC. You can never get rid of her.

 

The "bad past stigma" - The pureblood aspect, Liara whines about it in the first game, and she thinks it seems to make her unattractive or unlikable. And yet, Shepard doesn't seem to mind. 

 

Unexplained badass - Liara was a wimpy scientist during in ME1 with only light gun training and average asari biotics. Okay, that's fine. Somehow, she trapsizes all around the galaxy and rescues Shepard's body

 

There's more, but this will start it. 

[Barquiel]

Mary Sues are self-inserts with a few "improvements", nothing more. And your points are complete nonsense. "Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters" is being nice? Good to know!

And by your definition, Garrus is also a Mary Sue. Nice...