623 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It seems "Mary Sue" just means "A character I don't like gets attention"...

 

To me, it just seems you're dismissing criticism leveled at your favorite character.

[KaiserShep]

Average asari biotics? All that other stuff aside, this blue chick can lift a motherloving armature lol.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mary Sues are self-inserts with a few "improvements", nothing more. And your points are complete nonsense. "Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters" is being nice? Good to know!

And by your definition, Garrus is also a Mary Sue. Nice...

 

That's not true. That would be known as an author avatar by what you're saying. You dismissing them without providing an argument is complete nonsense.

 

And you're strawmanning an argument to Garrus now without defining it. Garrus isn't a mary sue character by any means. 

[DuskWanderer]

Average asari biotics? All that other stuff aside, this blue chick can lift a motherloving armature lol.

Gameplay and story separation. 

[KaiserShep]

Those Genesis comics are corny as hell. Handy as they are to allow you to skip a game, it just doesn't seem worth it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Average asari biotics? All that other stuff aside, this blue chick can lift a motherloving colossus lol.

 

I try to separate gameplay circumstances from the actual scripting and progression of the narrative. 

 

For Asari standards, and probably by military standards in general, Liara I think is supposed to be a civilian with no real combat training or capability. 

[KaiserShep]

Gameplay and story separation. 

 

I was sort of kidding on that point, but I don't recall her biotics being described as average in the game, but it's been a while.

[themikefest]

Mary Sues are self-inserts with a few "improvements", nothing more. And your points are complete nonsense. "Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters" is being nice? Good to know!

And by your definition, Garrus is also a Mary Sue. Nice...

There's a big difference between the two characters. I can ignore Garrus, if alive, in the whole game except for the cutscene after you cure/babotage the genophage whereas T'soni is mentioned in conversations by other characters including Shepard and  has a number of cutscenes that are unavoiable.

[DuskWanderer]

Mary Sues are self-inserts with a few "improvements", nothing more. And your points are complete nonsense. "Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters" is being nice? Good to know!

And by your definition, Garrus is also a Mary Sue. Nice...

Those are not Mary Sue's, those are a type of Mary Sue's. There's a difference. I also notice you make no effort at refuting any points.

 

Garrus also is not a Mary Sue, by those definitions. His backstory is already explained for his badassery, he's got motivation outside of Shepard, everyone doesn't "love" him, he has no "bad past" stigma except for "not being a good turian" and he's okay with that, and he never factors outside of when you recruit him and his two personal missions in ME1.

[themikefest]

Those Genesis comics are corny as hell. Handy as they are to allow you to skip a game, it just doesn't seem worth it.

I saw the comic for ME3 on youtube the other day and thought what a load of crap. It would be better to purchase ME1/ME2 and play them

[N172]

http://www.wiccanani...slttrekkiestale

There you have it, the original Mary Sue

[Barquiel]

That's not true. That would be known as an author avatar by what you're saying. You dismissing them without providing an argument is complete nonsense.

 

And you're strawmanning an argument to Garrus now without defining it. Garrus isn't a mary sue character by any means. 

 

I said by his definition (and I think his definition is wrong)

She doesn't undergo any permanent evolution in thought or personality -> That's new, people usually complain that she changes too much. Well, Liara for example is obviously alot more cynical in ME2 and ME3, but I think that making her more hardened was a logical way to take her character. Of course it's not like she's completely lost her old personality, it's still there. She's very compassionate and caring, even in ME3. She's more sure of herself now, sure...but why wouldn't she be? Shepard and Liara's relationship also had experienced its ups and downs. What's Garrus character development in ME2/3?

Everyone loves her, except the jerks -> Ashley clearly doesn't like her in ME1 (bug eyed monster line). And what squadmates really dislike each other? Miranda/Jack and Legion/Tali...and even they get along in ME3. Liara has some friends (Chakwas for example), and has a neutral relationship with most other characters. Just like everyone else.

Incorruptable - Liara barely had about 6 months of being the Shadow Broker before Cerberus attacked her, presumably even less than that considering it happened before the Reaper attack on Earth (and she was searching for the crucible plan in that time). Not turning evil after 6 months makes her incorruptable? Please...

The Shilling - I don't have the genesis comic, but I heard it's bad. I give him that point.

The Love(ish) attachment - The line isn't "There is no Shepard without T'Soni". Now Garrus? Every other squadmate has a friendship/romance path and a "neutral" path in London (you can accept or refuse Liara's gift etc.). Or the speech Shepard is giving to him on the citadel about Garrus being his/her only true friend.  He's not only Shepards friend...he's obviously her best friend. You can't be cruel to Liara, but she isn't the only offender here.

Spotlight Stealing Squad - You can wait until the last mission to recruit Liara in ME1 (barely any content). You can complete ME2 without ever setting foot on Illium. You're forced to recruit her at the beginning of ME3, but you're also forced to recruit Garrus at the beginning of ME2 for example. You're forced to recruit several characters in Mass Effect without any concrete reason. And DLC after DLC? There are more Liara DLCs?

The "bad past stigma" - Liara doesn't whine about the pureblood thing. There is an investigate options and Liara explains what a pureblood is, why they're looked down among the asari and that she doesn't know her "father". How is that whining? Do you consider Garrus whiny when he talks about being a bad turian?

Unexplained badass - Liara can master singularity which as far as the lore goes only the most powerful biotics can accomplish (mentioned in the novels). I don't think she is nowhere near as powerful as Samara or Morinth, but she had to deal with pirates, slavers and ferocious animals before people like Kaidan were even born (as she tells you in ME1). Liara doesn't have any special weapon/armor trainig in ME1, and her skillset reflects this. She has Throw, Warp, Lift, Singularity, Barrier and Stasis: all biotic skills that can be explained. She also has Electronics and First Aid (useful skills on dig sites). OK, she kills some mercs in Redemption. Garrus did hold off three merc gangs and a freakin' gunship before Shepard et. al got there, and his background is being part of C-Sec's Investigation Division.

[Steelcan]

I said by his definition (and I think his definition is wrong)

She doesn't undergo any permanent evolution in thought or personality -> That's new, people usually complain that she changes too much. Well, Liara for example is obviously alot more cynical in ME2 and ME3, but I think that making her more hardened was a logical way to take her character. Of course it's not like she's completely lost her old personality, it's still there. She's very compassionate and caring, even in ME3. She's more sure of herself now, sure...but why wouldn't she be? Shepard and Liara's relationship also had experienced its ups and downs. What's Garrus character development in ME2/3?

Everyone loves her, except the jerks -> Ashley clearly doesn't like her in ME1 (bug eyed monster line). And what squadmates really dislike each other? Miranda/Jack and Legion/Tali...and even they get along in ME3. Liara has some friends (Chakwas for example), and has a neutral relationship with most other characters. Just like everyone else.

Incorruptable - Liara barely had about 6 months of being the Shadow Broker before Cerberus attacked her, presumably even less than that considering it happened before the Reaper attack on Earth (and she was searching for the crucible plan in that time). Not turning evil after 6 months makes her incorruptable? Please...

The Shilling - I don't have the genesis comic, but I heard it's bad. I give him that point.

The Love(ish) attachment - The line isn't "There is no Shepard without T'Soni". Now Garrus? Every other squadmate has a friendship/romance path and a "neutral" path in London (you can accept or refuse Liara's gift etc.). Or the speech Shepard is giving to him on the citadel about Garrus being his/her only true friend.  He's not only Shepards friend...he's obviously her best friend. You can't be cruel to Liara, but she isn't the only offender here.

Spotlight Stealing Squad - You can wait until the last mission to recruit Liara in ME1 (barely any content). You can complete ME2 without ever setting foot on Illium. You're forced to recruit her at the beginning of ME3, but you're also forced to recruit Garrus at the beginning of ME2 for example. You're forced to recruit several characters in Mass Effect without any concrete reason? And DLC after DLC? There are more Liara DLCs?

The "bad past stigma" - Liara doesn't whine about the pureblood thing. There is an investigate options and Liara explains what a pureblood is, why they're looked down among the asari and that she doesn't know her "father". How is that whining? Do you consider Garrus whiny when he talks about being a bad turian?

Unexplained badass - Liara can master singularity which as far as the lore goes only the most powerful biotics can accomplish (mentioned in the novels). I don't think she is nowhere near as powerful as Samara or Morinth, but she had to deal with pirates, slavers and ferocious animals before people like Kaidan were even born (as she tells you in ME1). Liara doesn't have any special weapon/armor trainig in ME1, and her skillset reflects this. She has Throw, Warp, Lift, Singularity, Barrier and Stasis: all biotic skills that can be explained. She also has Electronics and First Aid (useful skills on dig sites). OK, she kills some mercs in Redemption. Garrus did hold off three merc gangs and a freakin' gunship before Shepard et. al got there, and his background is being part of C-Sec's Investigation Division.

She changes over time, but where she is at Thessia is exactly where she is in ME1, a scared scientist way out of her depth, no permanent change is not the same as no change at all

 

Ashely is a bit of a jerk so.....

 

That still fits the definition.  Give someone six months with corrupting power and chances are they will be corrupted

 

Just because she isn't the only offender doesn't mean she doesn't fit

 

In ME3 it is undeniable that she gets more content than any other squadmate

 

Again, it still fits, coming from a background that would lead people o discriminate against her is what qualifies her

 

Nowhere in her introduction is she explained as having biotic powers on par with Shepard, merely "her biotics will be useful"

[von uber]

In ME3 it is undeniable that she gets more content than any other squadmate

 

Debateable. More 'unavoidable' maybe, but I bet Garrus runs her very, very close, especially in dialogue.

[Steelcan]

Debateable. More 'unavoidable' maybe, but I bet Garrus runs her very, very close, especially in dialogue.

Garrus can be dead, and as you mentioned is more avoidable

[DuskWanderer]

Character - That's a common symptom of Mary Sue, that she's all loving and kind. And has that "compassion and caring." Garrus actually reduces the war to arithmetic, he just thinks he hopes he can live by a sentiment echoed by paragon Shepard. Face it, that's Sue-worthy of Liara. And she's the whole "friends with geth" after peace on Rannoch.

 

Everyone loves - Tali and Legion only grow out of it if you make them (solve the interrupt, do the loyalty missions, and whatnot). If you don't, they are familiar with each other, but they are not friendly. Jack and Miranda grow up and tolerate (if not like) each other. But with Liara? Love, love, and nothing but love. Her relationship with Kaidan is positive, it's presumed positive with Adams based on conversations with him and Kaidan after Thessia, she has warm ones with Garrus, Tali, even James. 

 

Incorruptable - The Shadow Broker's resources are practically limitless, and he had his hands in all sorts of pies when Liara took it over. She knows, from a glance, that she could start a war with his resources. And now, tehe, she's still innocent perfect Liara.

 

Love(ish) - You can call Liara your best friend, and the one who knows him the best, during the Light into the Future segment. I also don't recall you ever having to hug Garrus, now, do you? And also, not being able to be cruel to Liara is part of the Mary Sue. The only person allowed to be cruel to Mary Sue are jerks won over by her purity.

 

Spotlight Stealing Squad - You recruit Garrus by pure accident, you had no idea it was Garrus at the time. Liara's also given extra content with Benezia, and a whole DLC about her (I think the amount of lines the third squadmate gets can be counted on one hand after she joins the party). She's also given an absolute "ton" more dialogue in the Citadel DLC than anyone else. She also pops up constantly to talk, which no one else, not even lovers, get to do.

 

Bad Past - That's also part of a Mary Sue, they have a horrible past and they complain about it. She does complain about it. 

 

Badass - Running around and procuring Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker takes more than average skill, and Liara has never shown it in game. 

 

 

Bottom line, she's a Sue. Just accept it and move on

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm tempted to jump in here and defend DuskWanderers point some more. I'll think about it.

[DuskWanderer]

I'm tempted to jump in here and defend DuskWanderers point some more. I'll think about it.

Usually, we're on different sides, friend. How fun.

[von uber]

Garrus can be dead, and as you mentioned is more avoidable

True, but it is unlikely in most playthroughs.
I bet over the trilogy he gets by far the most content out of any character (only challenged for screen time by miranda's arse).

[General TSAR]

Character - That's a common symptom of Mary Sue, that she's all loving and kind. And has that "compassion and caring." Garrus actually reduces the war to arithmetic, he just thinks he hopes he can live by a sentiment echoed by paragon Shepard. Face it, that's Sue-worthy of Liara. And she's the whole "friends with geth" after peace on Rannoch.

 

Everyone loves - Tali and Legion only grow out of it if you make them (solve the interrupt, do the loyalty missions, and whatnot). If you don't, they are familiar with each other, but they are not friendly. Jack and Miranda grow up and tolerate (if not like) each other. But with Liara? Love, love, and nothing but love. Her relationship with Kaidan is positive, it's presumed positive with Adams based on conversations with him and Kaidan after Thessia, she has warm ones with Garrus, Tali, even James. 

 

Incorruptable - The Shadow Broker's resources are practically limitless, and he had his hands in all sorts of pies when Liara took it over. She knows, from a glance, that she could start a war with his resources. And now, tehe, she's still innocent perfect Liara.

 

Love(ish) - You can call Liara your best friend, and the one who knows him the best, during the Light into the Future segment. I also don't recall you ever having to hug Garrus, now, do you? And also, not being able to be cruel to Liara is part of the Mary Sue. The only person allowed to be cruel to Mary Sue are jerks won over by her purity.

 

Spotlight Stealing Squad - You recruit Garrus by pure accident, you had no idea it was Garrus at the time. Liara's also given extra content with Benezia, and a whole DLC about her (I think the amount of lines the third squadmate gets can be counted on one hand after she joins the party). She's also given an absolute "ton" more dialogue in the Citadel DLC than anyone else. She also pops up constantly to talk, which no one else, not even lovers, get to do.

 

Bad Past - That's also part of a Mary Sue, they have a horrible past and they complain about it. She does complain about it. 

 

Badass - Running around and procuring Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker takes more than average skill, and Liara has never shown it in game. 

 

 

Bottom line, she's a Sue. Just accept it and move on

10 Charles Foster Kanes, I could not have put it better myself. 

[von uber]

She's also given an absolute "ton" more dialogue in the Citadel DLC than anyone else.

I was with you until this point.. That's simply not true.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I was with you until this point.. That's simply not true.

 

While I agree with you here, this is one negative point. It doesn't necessarily defeat his other points. This one is just invalid.

[Barquiel]

She changes over time, but where she is at Thessia is exactly where she is in ME1, a scared scientist way out of her depth, no permanent change is not the same as no change at all
 
Ashely is a bit of a jerk so.....
 
That still fits the definition.  Give someone six months with corrupting power and chances are they will be corrupted
 
Just because she isn't the only offender doesn't mean she doesn't fit
 
In ME3 it is undeniable that she gets more content than any other squadmate
 
Again, it still fits, coming from a background that would lead people o discriminate against her is what qualifies her
 
Nowhere in her introduction is she explained as having biotic powers on par with Shepard, merely "her biotics will be useful"

People act differently depending on their responsibilities and level of comfort. Liara feels depressed and guilty about the events on Thessia, believing she didn't do enough. In ME1, she didn't have any similar responsibilities. The situation is completely different. And her reaction immediately after Thessia is certainly much more believable than the wooden response of some other characters.

She still considers Tali a good friend/sister while at the same time Liara gets better along with Kaidan. So Liara has her problems with Javik and Ashley. And Garrus doesn't get along with...? What about James? Or Kaidan? Samara?

She does not start killing innocents to protect the exclusivity of her information, but we saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay for example. She also mentions that she employs some mercs, even before she became the SB. And the old SB was not inherently evil either. His operation has run smoothly for decades. For example it's implied by Feron in ME Redemption that the SB's deal with the Collectors was atypical of him (Feron was shocked when he found out about it). But Liara not turning into some villain after 6 months makes her "incorruptable"? What exactly do you wanted to see?

She isn't the worst offender either. The writers always give you a friendship (romance) path and a "strictly business" path. If you don't want to talk about your dreams...choose the "Let's get to business/I don't want to talk about it" option. If you don't want Liara's gift in London....decline it (she doesn't even offer it if you have ignored her during the game). And on Mars, you have always the option to talk to her or choose something like "Forget about it. Let's move". Even after Thessia (a completely optional scene) you can tell her that she "has to mourn later", etc. Show me one scene in ME3 where she's "forced as Shepard's friend".

That's wrong, and you know it. Garrus has about as much content as Liara, even Garrus fans acknowledge this.

She doesn't say she had a horrible past, and she certainly doesn't complain about it (and really, Liara isn't the first ME character who comes into my mind when it comes to a "bad past")

Nobody said she has biotic powers on par with Shepard (or even Samara/Jack). She is powerful enough to deal with some pirates or Blue Suns. And that's exactly what she did in Redemption.

[Steelcan]

*sighs*

Someone else take this one, I have studying to do.

[themikefest]

True, but it is unlikely in most playthroughs.
I bet over the trilogy he gets by far the most content out of any character (only challenged for screen time by miranda's arse).

In most of my playthroughs, I don't recruit him in ME1 and kill him in ME2.