623 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

I said by his definition (and I think his definition is wrong)

She doesn't undergo any permanent evolution in thought or personality -> That's new, people usually complain that she changes too much. Well, Liara for example is obviously alot more cynical in ME2 and ME3, but I think that making her more hardened was a logical way to take her character. Of course it's not like she's completely lost her old personality, it's still there. She's very compassionate and caring, even in ME3. She's more sure of herself now, sure...but why wouldn't she be? Shepard and Liara's relationship also had experienced its ups and downs. What's Garrus character development in ME2/3?

The Love(ish) attachment - The line isn't "There is no Shepard without T'Soni". Now Garrus? Every other squadmate has a friendship/romance path and a "neutral" path in London (you can accept or refuse Liara's gift etc.). Or the speech Shepard is giving to him on the citadel about Garrus being his/her only true friend.  He's not only Shepards friend...he's obviously her best friend. You can't be cruel to Liara, but she isn't the only offender here.

Spotlight Stealing Squad - You can wait until the last mission to recruit Liara in ME1 (barely any content). You can complete ME2 without ever setting foot on Illium. You're forced to recruit her at the beginning of ME3, but you're also forced to recruit Garrus at the beginning of ME2 for example. You're forced to recruit several characters in Mass Effect without any concrete reason. And DLC after DLC? There are more Liara DLCs?

Unexplained badass - Liara can master singularity which as far as the lore goes only the most powerful biotics can accomplish (mentioned in the novels). I don't think she is nowhere near as powerful as Samara or Morinth, but she had to deal with pirates, slavers and ferocious animals before people like Kaidan were even born (as she tells you in ME1). Liara doesn't have any special weapon/armor trainig in ME1, and her skillset reflects this. She has Throw, Warp, Lift, Singularity, Barrier and Stasis: all biotic skills that can be explained. She also has Electronics and First Aid (useful skills on dig sites). OK, she kills some mercs in Redemption. Garrus did hold off three merc gangs and a freakin' gunship before Shepard et. al got there, and his background is being part of C-Sec's Investigation Division.

What's funny in ME2 she says a few lines that may appear she's cold, but she's still the little annoyance from ME1.

 

With Garrus most playthroughs in ME, I don't recruit him and he's usually killed in ME2. I don't consider him a friend. I can avoid him for most of the trilogy. With T'soni, yes I can save her butt last in ME1 and not see her in ME2, but ME3 I have to be nicey- nice with the annoyance. Why? I don't give a crap about her. The only good thing I can do to T'soni in ME3 is not talk with her, and if you do that she won't offer the gift. Which is fine by me. I don't need her slimey head on my shoulder.

 

You maybe forced to recruit some squadmates, but  they all can be ignored for the rest of the game.

 

Why on Illium, if I choose to recruit Samara or Thane or both I have to  end up with a what-the-crap hug with T'soni? Why can't I give her a what-the-crap punch for hugging me?

 

She may know singularity, but it useless against someone with shields. So in the time she has to cooldown she would be dead. With Garrus, he would've been killed by the mercs in a short time without Shepard showing up.

 

In the whole trilogy I can only talk sh*t to her once and that is playing as a renegade and I pick her up last in ME1. Why can't I do that in the other games? Is it because I have to be nicey-nice to her so that I don't hurt her feelings?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

People act differently depending on their responsibilities and level of comfort. Liara feels depressed and guilty about the events on Thessia, believing she didn't do enough. In ME1, she didn't have any similar responsibilities. The situation is completely different. And her reaction immediately after Thessia is certainly much more believable than the wooden response of some other characters.

She still considers Tali a good friend/sister while at the same time Liara gets better along with Kaidan. So Liara has her problems with Javik and Ashley. And Garrus doesn't get along with...? What about James? Or Kaidan? Samara?

She does not start killing innocents to protect the exclusivity of her information, but we saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay for example. She also mentions that she employs some mercs, even before she became the SB. And the old SB was not inherently evil either. His operation has run smoothly for decades. For example it's implied by Feron in ME Redemption that the SB's deal with the Collectors was atypical of him (Feron was shocked when he found out about it). But Liara not turning into some villain after 6 months makes her "incorruptable"? What exactly do you wanted to see?

She isn't the worst offender either. The writers always give you a friendship (romance) path and a "strictly business" path. If you don't want to talk about your dreams...choose the "Let's get to business/I don't want to talk about it" option. If you don't want Liara's gift in London....decline it (she doesn't even offer it if you have ignored her during the game). And on Mars, you have always the option to talk to her or choose something like "Forget about it. Let's move". Even after Thessia (a completely optional scene) you can tell her that she "has to mourn later", etc. Show me one scene in ME3 where she's "forced as Shepard's friend".

That's wrong, and you know it. Garrus has about as much content as Liara, even Garrus fans acknowledge this.

She doesn't say she had a horrible past, and she certainly doesn't complain about it (and really, Liara isn't the first ME character who comes into my mind when it comes to a "bad past")

Nobody said she has biotic powers on par with Shepard (or even Samara/Jack). She is powerful enough to deal with some pirates or Blue Suns. And that's exactly what she did in Redemption.

I'm a neutral party here. So, here goes. 

You have a point here. I know if my hometown got destroyed, I'd be pretty upset. And, how she reacts is no less annoying than how Shepard reacts to Earth. Either A. She grew up on ships in space, B. She grew up on a colony, not Earth, or C. grew up in poverty on Earth. She has no reason to be attached to it. So, in comparison to the other character's reactions to similar situations, her's is not so bad. 

Yeah, in relativity, her situation isn't so bad. 

To everyone, what does corruptible mean? Do you people mean like the dark side in Star Wars? Do people really expect her to be going around slaughtering people? I mean, sure, we don't see her doing evil stuff, but why should we? Being an information broker isn't exactly a situation where you start taking slaves. Apparently, it's a job where you have spies and sell info to people. Not that corrupting, I say. 

No, there are points where I am genuinely annoyed when she comes up to the cabin to tell Shepard something, when Garrus doesn't. She has what, 3 cabin scenes? Every other LI besides Traynor have none. And that pissed me off. 

Well, Garrus has more possible content. You can not recruit him for some stupid reason in ME, let him die for some stupid reason in ME2, and never talk to him in ME3. It's optional. 

Why do people complain about Liara being a more powerful biotic than Shepard, if this is true? I'm pretty sure the most powerful human biotic (Jack) is really only on-par with a middle of the line Asari. Liara is an Asari. It would make sense that she's more powerful. Much as it makes a lot of sense that Tali would be a better engineer than Shepard, Garrus would make a better soldier than Shepard, and any Krogan would make a better fighter than Shepard. For all this talk of humans and their genetic awesomeness, they are biologically pretty damn inferior to every race but the Quarians. 

[AlanC9]

No, there are points where I am genuinely annoyed when she comes up to the cabin to tell Shepard something, when Garrus doesn't. She has what, 3 cabin scenes? Every other LI besides Traynor have none. And that pissed me off. 

Why does where the scenes happen matter?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Why does where the scenes happen matter?

Because they're fairly unique and more intimate?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Why does where the scenes happen matter?

 

Shepard's cabin is a private area of the ship; it's the closest thing he has to a personal residence prior to Citadel on the Normandy. Imagine it like this: a lot of people complained about how Sam was running amok in Shepard's personal bathroom and hot tub. It's private, reserved for Shepard and typically the person closest to him. Would you let anyone other than your significant other (and possibly children) have access to your own bedroom? I certainly wouldn't. If Liara is you're LI, it's fine. If she's not, she doesn't need to be hanging around it. It's an intimate setting, and an unromanced Liara is getting too close and personal for comfort. 

[Ryriena]

I agree, that Shepard's cabin is private. I had her come in one of my play through's in ME1, after I killed Kaiden the other LI for female Shepard. I was like, why is she coming in too my cabin, when I never talked too her in the game..... I was confused as too why she came in to my cabin in ME1, when I had not talked to her in my game. I was trying to save this Shepard for Garrus...

[Mordokai]

Why can so many Liaramancers not accept that their favorite character has flaws? Yes, Liara is a Mary Sue, yes she obviously has plot-armor what's the big deal? Accept it and move on.

 

Therein lies the problem.

 

Mary Sue is, by definition, flawless.

[Zazzerka]

Therein lies the problem.

 

Mary Sue is, by definition, flawless.

 

She's the only Mary Sue with flaws. She's just that special.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I agree, that Shepard's cabin is private. I had her come in one of my play through's in ME1, after I killed Kaiden the other LI for female Shepard. I was like, why is she coming in too my cabin, when I never talked too her in the game..... I was confused as too why she came in to my cabin in ME1, when I had not talked to her in my game. I was trying to save this Shepard for Garrus...

 

ME1? There was no Garrus LI in ME1. You killed Kaidan, and you had enough + points for Liara. ME1 was an independent game. They weren't planning ME2. You had a choice of Kaidan or Liara for femShep. Or Ash or Liara for manShep. The only way out of it was to say to Liara "Kaidan is special." And not pursue any further conversation with Liara except for those in the conference room. Then "Vimire" Kaidan. 

[Steelcan]

Therein lies the problem.

 

Mary Sue is, by definition, flawless.

not necessarily

[Zazzerka]

Why can so many Liaramancers not accept that their favorite character has flaws? Yes, Liara is a Mary Sue, yes she obviously has plot-armor what's the big deal? Accept it and move on.

 

I've already accepted it. The constant need for people to remind me of those flaws suggests it's not me who needs to move on.

[Steelcan]

Zazz has moved onto flaws of the physical variety, namely a lack of legs

[Zazzerka]

We need to move on from that, also.

[Steelcan]

We need to move on from that, also.

 

I need to move on from a lot of things, but that requires effort

[Mordokai]

not necessarily

 

Oh, so now we're stretching the rules to fit our preconceived vision of the character?

 

Good to know.

[Steelcan]

Oh, so now we're stretching the rules to fit our preconceived vision of the character?

 

Good to know.

Being perfect and flawless in every way is not a requirement for a Mary Sue, they often do have flaws that are turned into positives

[CrutchCricket]

So is this Liara hate 3.0?

 

You're late.

[Han Shot First]

I agree by half a measure; I understand what you're saying in regards to the SB plot being short in ME3 and acknowledge it as a problem. I agree that in the scripting and plot design of the game, there was a fundamental problem that wouldn't be solved by substituting another character. It would be the same problem with a different person.

 

However, I do also hold Liara's role as the SB to be unbelievable in character growth and change. I still don't see why she had to be the SB. I'm not making a case for other Squadmates here; I'm questioning her importance to that plot in this aspect, which I find to be highly contrived. I hold Liara's relevance to the plot of the entire series to have nearly evaporated after finding out about Ilos. Sure, have her pop up a few places to help you out with Prothean research, or even make her a Prothean information expert that isn't the SB or in an intel field and help you out with finding Crucible related information. But outside that, her role in the plot strikes me as being problematic and uncharacteristic growth and development.

 

So I agree with you that part of the problem with the SB (and not an insignificant part) in ME3 was with how it was handled by the writing team, but I also maintain that the other part of the problem was on the character chosen to lead it, though this is more of an in-game, non-meta complaint compared to the design and writing of the first one.

 

I sort of agree. Or at least I agree that Liara's shift from archaeologist to information broker was not handled well.

 

Where we differ is that I don't necessarily think it was a bad idea to make Liara the Shadow Broker. The idea itself was fine in my opinion, it was just the execution that was flawed. It was a dramatic shift from being a shy and awkward archaeologist to be sure, but characters changing dramatically during the course of their story arc is relatively common in fiction. It works when it is well written and developed gradually so that the readers or viewers (or players) can buy into it. A good example of this is Walter White. He starts out as a mild-mannered High School chemistry teacher, and by the end of Breaking Bad he is a ruthless mass-murdering drug lord. People were able to buy into that and be entertained by it because the series was so well written and acted, and the viewers see Walter gradually develop along that path over the course of five seasons.

 

Where I think it didn't work with Liara is that she goes from mild-mannered archaeologist to information broker between games, and the how and why she went about putting together the nuts and bolts of a private spy network is mostly left a mystery. For the character that change might have occurred gradually over the course of two years, but for the player that change is sudden. And it is mostly left unexplained. Of course for game developers I think it is a bit harder to execute good character development than books, or TV series, or films, all of which provide more opportunities for dialogue and exposition than a RPG. But if the shift from archaeologist to information broker couldn't be sold well in the game itself, then IMO it probably should have the focus of one of the Mass Effect comics or books that Bioware produced. Perhaps it would have provided a better subject than Liara's Homeworld comic. After all, did we really need more exposition on how the Crucible plans were acquired?

[Zazzerka]

Being perfect and flawless in every way is not a requirement for a Mary Sue, they often do have flaws that are turned into positives

 

Which is a complete pain in the arse, really, if Mary Sue's are neither good nor bad, flawed nor flawless. Makes it seem like a stupid term to use unless you specify exactly which kind of Mary Sue you're accusing her of being. There should be sub-Sues, like the Mary-Kate Sue, or the Mary-Jane Sue.

[Jorji Costava]

This is where I start to question the importance of whether or not the Mary Sue trope precisely applies to Liara. The interesting questions, it seems to me, are whether or not the character is well-written on her own terms, and whether or not her role as Shepard's designated confidante can be justified in what is ostensibly a role-playing game. My inclination is to think that the answer to both questions is "not really."

 

In response to the first question, I find her a little to "fainty" in ME1, and I think the character change from ME1 to ME2 is far to dramatic to be based solely on events that occur entirely off-screen and with little to no foreshadowing from the earlier game. In response to the second, I just think the PC should have a bit more control over how he/she gets to define his/her relationships with the other characters.

 

EDIT: Changed some formatting

[CronoDragoon]

Therein lies the problem.

 

Mary Sue is, by definition, flawless.

 

Pretty much. Or any "flaws" a character has are actually positives that the writers masquerade as flaws to garner sympathy for the character.

[Steelcan]

Which is a complete pain in the arse, really, if Mary Sue's are neither good nor bad, flawed nor flawless. Makes it seem like a stupid term to use unless you specify exactly which kind of Mary Sue you're accusing her of being. There should be sub-Sues, like the Mary-Kate Sue, or the Mary-Jane Sue.

there are

 

Tv Tropes lists them

[Zazzerka]

TV TROPES

 

BLOODY TV TROPES

 

Bane of the internet.

[CrutchCricket]

TV TROPES

 

BLOODY TV TROPES

 

Bane of the internet.

 

Or really Best Thing Ever.

 

Much entertainment and procrastination was achieved from reading that site.

 

Still can't bring myself to read the ME entry though.

[Zazzerka]

When you realise you've got sixteen unread tabs open and you should've been asleep four hours ago, it causes you to reevaluate.

 

Mass Effect has every kind of trope ever, I've noticed. Just scroll down to the video game section and it'll inevitably be there.