623 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

Lore-wise, Liara is exceptionally powerful with her biotics...whether you like it or not. That means she makes a lot more sense than Tali for example (what special talents does Tali have to justify her squadmate status in ME1?). And how many squadmates fought in a real battle before?

Tali is as good with tech as Liara is with biotics and both are equally important. Tali at least had military basic training and fought Geth and mercs before.

Ash and Kaidan are both veterans. Kaidan is probably the most qualified squadmate in the franchise and is higher ranking than Shepard. Those two are also actually in the Alliance.

[Sir DeLoria]

No more out of the ordinary than garrus' arc (failed c-sec > batman > high command). I don't see why it is out of the question liara would have had some training., given the type of operations she is on.
Just like tali in fact.

Speculation, lore wise she hasn't and it's never stated and unlikely she had official training. Tali's training is canon.

[themikefest]

Lore-wise, Liara is exceptionally powerful with her biotics...whether you like it or not. That means she makes a lot more sense than Tali for example (what special talents does Tali have to justify her squadmate status in ME1?). And how many squadmates fought in a real battle before?

For someone who is a so called powerful biotic, she has a habit of "dying" alot in ME3. And no it doesn't make sense for her to be a squadmate. At least in ME1 I can have a say about not wanting  Tali, but Udina steps in and tells me to take her and Garrus or Wrex don't have to be recruited. With Liara I have no say. Why is that?

 

What do you consider to be a real battle? It certainly isn't fighting animals and pirates. Liara has never seen a battle and we learn on Thessia she turns whiny on the shuttle. Yes I to might be sad to see my homeworld burning, but I would also respect my Commander to send me back to get another squadmate who is more focused on the mission. I can't do that with T'soni.

[CrutchCricket]

No more out of the ordinary than garrus' arc (failed c-sec > batman > high command). I don't see why it is out of the question liara would have had some training., given the type of operations she is on.

Just like tali in fact.

 

She's a freakin archeologist and she's the asari equivalent of a teenager or at least mid-twenties. What training? She's a space babe grad student. If the galaxy wasn't dependent on Protheans for tech she'd be in one of the most useless fields career-wise (lol sorry real archeologists).

 

I don't think it bears saying but real archeologists are not Indiana Jones. And I don't think he even had combat training. He just had the Awesomeness of Harrison Ford.

 

Honestly I get the feeling a lot of those pirate encounters went her way purely with the element of surprise. "Oh look a young defenseless asari this will be easy- omgwtfsingularity!"

 

Having superpowers helps. Having above average superpowers even, helps. But it does not make you a trained commando.

[von uber]

The missions she is on when involved with the Normandy, obviously.
Unless of course shep just goes 'tag along and try not to get hit - you too tali.'

[Mordokai]

There really isn't a standardized definition of what is and what isn't a mary-sue. There are general archetypes and tropes that each will have, but you'd be hard pressed to actually narrow down what is and what isn't flawless, for example. A Mary-sue type character might have a flaw for example, but the flaw is treated with sympathy and overcome with the help of her friends: Sometimes, it's even used to show that said flaw is actually a virtue the character grows to appreciate, making her even more 'perfect'.

 

http://tvtropes.org/...hp/Main/MarySue

 

So which one are we talking about?

[Sir DeLoria]

The missions she is on when involved with the Normandy, obviously.
Unless of course shep just goes 'tag along and try not to get hit - you too tali.'

Unless Liara is never taken on any missions during her time on the Normandy.

[Barquiel]

Tali is as good with tech as Liara is with biotics and both are equally important. Tali at least had military basic training and fought Geth and mercs before.

Ash and Kaidan are both veterans. Kaidan is probably the most qualified squadmate in the franchise and is higher ranking than Shepard. Those two are also actually in the Alliance.

Ok, Liara travelling the Terminus systems and dealing with pirates, slavers and mercs more than once doesn't count as combat experience. But Tali surviving one encounter with the geth during her pilgrimage does? And you really want me to believe that Liara didn't receive any training...but still mastered the canonically most difficult biotic ability (untrained asari fight like Falere, for example)? But Tali receiving some combat training during her pilgrimage preperation makes her a capable soldier? And tech abilities are rather useless against most enemies.

You were talking about combat experience. Ashley doesn't have combat experience before Eden Prime, as she tells you.

[themikefest]

Unless Liara is never taken on any missions during her time on the Normandy.

I usually recruit her after Virmire and go straight to Ilos without seeing or talking with her at all. So she never got any experience from me.

[Mordokai]

I just find it fascinating how people need to inform everybody how useless Liara is in their playthrough and how much fun it was killing her at that beam rush.

 

With supplied pictorial evidence, of course.

[themikefest]

It is fun watching T'soni be killed on the beam run. But I only do it when I'm doing specific playthroughs. The majority of my low ems runs(below 1900) I have  Ashley and James.

[von uber]

The problem is if you ignore on the job training (gameplay/story segregation!) then by that measure:
Me1: only squadmates are ash and kaiden (maybe wrex too)
Me2: jacob, mordin, zaeed, the arse (although does she have any combat training?) and maybe garrus
Me3: james, javik and probably garrus by now.

So to be honest I think it is ridiculous to single out liara, but whatever floats your boat.

[Farangbaa]

That's creepy, how accurate that is.

 

 

Oh so personal loss makes you, yourself in real life a qualified secret agent/ overseer of an intelligence agency. Maybe I should save and lose people more often. I'd be James Bond in no time.

 

Oh, so you win your arguments with absurdity. Whatever floats your boat.

 

But that's not what I said, and you know it.

 

For someone who is a so called powerful biotic, she has a habit of "dying" alot in ME3. And no it doesn't make sense for her to be a squadmate. At least in ME1 I can have a say about not wanting  Tali, but Udina steps in and tells me to take her and Garrus or Wrex don't have to be recruited. With Liara I have no say. Why is that?

 

What do you consider to be a real battle? It certainly isn't fighting animals and pirates. Liara has never seen a battle and we learn on Thessia she turns whiny on the shuttle. Yes I to might be sad to see my homeworld burning, but I would also respect my Commander to send me back to get another squadmate who is more focused on the mission. I can't do that with T'soni.

 

Have you ever tried to save Dr. Michel and then tell Garrus he can't join you? It can not be done.Yes, you can avoid him altogether, but once he's in your sights (or rather, you are in his) you can't tell him to f*ck off. Believe me, I've tried.

 

And that last bit is just ridiculous. Why can't I tell EDI to not come to Chronos with me? Seems like rather dangerous business to take the rogue AI (cause that's what she is, from Cerberus' point of view) back to it's creator.

 

Or why do I have to take James to Palavan? Screw that guy, I don't need him. I'll solo that stuff if I have to.

 

Oh and one last thing. If Liara's dies a lot in ME3, you're doing something wrong.

[themikefest]

 

Have you ever tried to save Dr. Michel and then tell Garrus he can't join you? It can not be done.Yes, you can avoid him altogether, but once he's in your sights (or rather, you are in his) you can't tell him to f*ck off. Believe me, I've tried.

 

And that last bit is just ridiculous. Why can't I tell EDI to not come to Chronos with me? Seems like rather dangerous business to take the rogue AI (cause that's what she is, from Cerberus' point of view) back to it's creator.

 

Or why do I have to take James to Palavan? Screw that guy, I don't need him. I'll solo that stuff if I have to.

 

Oh and one last thing. If Liara's dies a lot in ME3, you're doing something wrong.

If I recruit Wrex  and not save Dr. MIchel and when heading to the SR1 I talk with Garrus telling him I don't want him on the ship.

And yes I have recruited Garrus by saving Dr. Michel and not recruited Wrex. And why would I try to tell him I don't want him on the ship if I help him save Dr. Michel?

 

What's ridiculous? I don't want the robot with me either.

 

If you feel I'm doing something wrong then why don't come to my place and let me know what I'm doing wrong. I put her in cover and she decides to ignore that  and runs into the enemy getting herself killed. Can you answer why she does that?

[Sir DeLoria]

Ok, Liara travelling the Terminus systems and dealing with pirates, slavers and mercs more than once doesn't count as combat experience. But Tali surviving one encounter with the geth during her pilgrimage does? And you really want me to believe that Liara didn't receive any training...but still mastered the canonically most difficult biotic ability (untrained asari fight like Falere, for example)? But Tali receiving some combat training during her pilgrimage preperation makes her a capable soldier? And tech abilities are rather useless against most enemies.You were talking about combat experience. Ashley doesn't have combat experience before Eden Prime, as she tells you.

You know, I find it hilarious how you're writing essays about one little line of dialogue that implies Liara supposedly experienced some small skirmishes with pirates and how you try to paint her as a grizzled old war veteran(skirmishes aren't the same as an open field battle fyi). I never said Tali was a capable soldier actually, neither of them are really justified for being in a combat squad. Well, I find biotic abilities far less usefull than tech, but that's dependant on your own views. Once again, your argument lacks hard evidence and is purely based on speculation and your own views.

[Barquiel]

Let's see, you said her skills change during the triology. I asked you which skills changed and you didn't answer (but posted a silly picture).

Then you compared Traynor and Liara in terms of combat skill. Do I really have to point out how ridicolous that is?

And then you changed the argument again. Now she made less sense than Tali because she never fought in a "real" battle (again, what squadmates fought in an open field battle?), and that she had no weapons or combat training. That obviously means Tali has more combat experience/fought in more "open field battles" (a blatant lie), and had more combat training than Liara (something we simply don't know). And now you're stating that "my" argument lacks hard evidence and is purely based on speculation? Hypocrite much?

[KaiserShep]

Shepard's very aura turns everyone into a badass.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

She's a freakin archeologist and she's the asari equivalent of a teenager or at least mid-twenties. What training? She's a space babe grad student. If the galaxy wasn't dependent on Protheans for tech she'd be in one of the most useless fields career-wise (lol sorry real archeologists).

 

I don't think it bears saying but real archeologists are not Indiana Jones. And I don't think he even had combat training. He just had the Awesomeness of Harrison Ford.

 

Honestly I get the feeling a lot of those pirate encounters went her way purely with the element of surprise. "Oh look a young defenseless asari this will be easy- omgwtfsingularity!"

 

Having superpowers helps. Having above average superpowers even, helps. But it does not make you a trained commando.

 

Indiana Jones was in the Army I believe. During WWII, he was in the OSS. Just throwing that out there.

 

As I said, I ripped apart David's claim once that she could train under Shepard to become a character more powerful than a Platoon of Rangers or Recon Marines.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The problem is if you ignore on the job training (gameplay/story segregation!) then by that measure:
Me1: only squadmates are ash and kaiden (maybe wrex too)
Me2: jacob, mordin, zaeed, the arse (although does she have any combat training?) and maybe garrus
Me3: james, javik and probably garrus by now.

So to be honest I think it is ridiculous to single out liara, but whatever floats your boat.

 

I somewhat agree with this. Back in ME1 Liara and Tali were pretty much in the same boat. Both characters had previous training and were shown (or told) to be capable at fighting, but none of them were soldiers or experienced at combat. Additionally, Tali lived out her usefulness before she even joined the ship; although I'm not sure exactly how much she contributed to the engines. I think it's the other aspects of Liara (and maybe more reasonable complaints) that cause people to be more critical of her character. And add that in with her prominence in ME3 and you have the recipe for a polarizing character.

 

My main problem with Liara is that her character is often inconsistent, especially between games. This just doesn't make her interesting to me because the way she develops is jagged and sometimes nonsensical; I don't hate her, she's on the middle of my list, I just don't find her particularly engaging as she often doesn't feel like a character I can relate too. Some examples: In ME1, I think they played up the young and naive act to the point where it conflicted with her career of flying around the galaxy by herself to investigate Prothean ruins and occasionally engage in fights with bands of mercenaries and pirates. I think it would have been better if she was just socially awkward (I forgot who came up with the idea, but I like the concept of merging her and Shiala into a single character). ME2 was the worst as she suddenly became an information broker and experienced a huge change in personality, developments that are never adequately explained in the game.

[Sir DeLoria]

Let's see, you said her skills change during the triology. I asked you which skills changed and you didn't answer (but posted a silly picture).

Uh, pretty sure I did.

"You can't go from loner civilian to badass commando in such a short time and without training. Liara goes through this sudden change even if she was never taken on a single mission in ME1."

Unless you're talking in-game special powers, which my argument was never about. Oh no, a silly .gif how dare I not take this incredibly important discussion seriously?

Then you compared Traynor and Liara in terms of combat skill. Do I really have to point out how ridicolous that is?

They're both civilians with little to no combat experience. Sure Liara is a biotic, so you might compare her to any other Asari civilian instead.

And then you changed the argument again. Now she made less sense than Tali because she never fought in a "real" battle (again, what squadmates fought in an open field battle?), and that she had no weapons or combat training.

No I didn't, I merely made an example with Tali which led you to pick up an argument about her. Kaidan fought in more wars than Shepard and is more highly decorated, Wrex is an ancient veteran of countless wars and Ash at least fighs on a battlefield at the beginning of the game. There is no proof of Liara having any combat or weapons training and something along the lines is never mentioned by canon material. As a civilian archaeologist, who has zero to do with the military it's highly unlikely she received any formal training.

That obviously means Tali has more combat experience/fought in more "open field battles" (a blatant lie), and had more combat training than Liara (something we simply don't know). And now you're stating that "my" argument lacks hard evidence and is purely based on speculation? Hypocrite much?

No, I never said any of that, that's your conclusion. I actually specifically said multiple times, that Tali is as unfit of fighting as Liara. I merely mentioned that Tali actually did receive combat training, which is canon.

So yes, like it or not, your argument is 100% based on speculation. If you find any canon source that clearly says Liara received extensive weapons and combat training, then please show it to me. Otherwise I'm afraid you have no point in arguing mate.

[Steelcan]

Liara does not deserve place on the squad that includes actual soldiers and veterans. Wrex was a krogan warlord before being driven from Tuchunka where he then became a mercenary, Garrus was part of the Turian Military before joining C-Sec.

 

Liara and Tali are both unqualified to join that company, though Tali according to canon did receive basic self-defense training.  Liara did not. 

 

Her biotic prowess is also not particularly relevant, biotics on an untrained civilian are hardly an asset when the wielder is not a soldier.

 

She may have had small experiences with pirates or such, but that hardly qualifies her as a trained soldier.  So her sudden combat prowess in her comic is indeed out of the blue.

[von uber]

Canon? When she joined my squad in my current play through she was level 35 already. . That's pretty competent. .

[Barquiel]

I somewhat agree with this. Back in ME1 Liara and Tali were pretty much in the same boat. Both characters had previous training and were shown (or told) to be capable at fighting, but none of them were soldiers or experienced at combat. Additionally, Tali lived out her usefulness before she even joined the ship; although I'm not sure exactly how much she contributed to the engines. I think it's the other aspects of Liara (and maybe more reasonable complaints) that cause people to be more critical of her character. And add that in with her prominence in ME3 and you have the recipe for a polarizing character.
 
My main problem with Liara is that her character is often inconsistent, especially between games. This just doesn't make her interesting to me because the way she develops is jagged and sometimes nonsensical; I don't hate her, she's on the middle of my list, I just don't find her particularly engaging as she often doesn't feel like a character I can relate too. Some examples: In ME1, I think they played up the young and naive act to the point where it conflicted with her career of flying around the galaxy by herself to investigate Prothean ruins and occasionally engage in fights with bands of mercenaries and pirates. I think it would have been better if she was just socially awkward (I forgot who came up with the idea, but I like the concept of merging her and Shiala into a single character). ME2 was the worst as she suddenly became an information broker and experienced a huge change in personality, developments that are never adequately explained in the game.

Why do you think Liara was naive in ME1? I mean, can you give me an example of Liara acting naive in ME1 (it's not that she thought the SB would meet her in some dark corner of the citadel...).

I think she was one of the more mature squadmembers you have in ME1. Look at how she handles her mother's death or her conversations with the other squadmates. Liara's an introvert that prefers her solitude, but she's not 'shy' as in bashful/timid. She is more than able to speak her mind and she can be assertive when necessary, even in ME1 (take, for example, her scene with Saracino). Yes, she acts rather awkward around Shepard at the beginning. But keep in mind that not everyone is good at flirting. I don't think that makes her naive. And I guess Liara's only real experience with humans was possibly getting shot at by them in merc bands

And I don't think Liara necessarily changed much from ME1 to ME2, but the situation she finds herself in is different. She had to give up some of her solitude in order to get the job done and she was willing to do so. She obviously doesn't like what she's doing on Illium, but has to do it and she is capable of it. I think it's made quite clear for example that Liara was using one of Benezia's threats as an element of the facade that she has constructed out of necessity, and in order to operate in Illium's underworld. This is why Liara ultimately prefers the Shadow Broker position...she gains the solitude back and usually only interacts with close friends on a day to day basis (Shepard and Feron). And it's not like she's completely lost her old personality, it's still there. Another problem is that our squadmates are constently changing their views in ME1, depending on which characters you use. For example, if you use Liara and Kaidan...Liara always supports the renegade decisions.

I think that making her more hardened was a logical way to take her character. But I've always maintained that her character development required additional clarification and elaboration in ME2 that the scene on Illium did not provide. If she had a bigger role in the main game and you got to know more about what happened to her in the past two years then perhaps it wouldn't seem like as drastic of a change as it appears to be...this was however corrected in LotSB. That's why I'd argue that her core personality didn't change. Look at how excited she got when she saw Shephard in ME2. Look at how shaken up she got at Thessia's/Palaven's fall. etc.

[DeinonSlayer]

Liara does not deserve place on the squad that includes actual soldiers and veterans. Wrex was a krogan warlord before being driven from Tuchunka where he then became a mercenary, Garrus was part of the Turian Military before joining C-Sec.

Liara and Tali are both unqualified to join that company, though Tali according to canon did receive basic self-defense training. Liara did not.

Her biotic prowess is also not particularly relevant, biotics on an untrained civilian are hardly an asset when the wielder is not a soldier.

She may have had small experiences with pirates or such, but that hardly qualifies her as a trained soldier. So her sudden combat prowess in her comic is indeed out of the blue.

Admittedly, no credentials were established for Tali in ME1 that I'm aware of - ME2 retroactively established that she received "the best combat training the Migrant Fleet could provide" before her pilgrimage (which is evidently ludicriously good - in Ascension, another Quarian pilgrim stages a one-man assault on a Cerberus outpost on Omega and frees Jillian Grayson and that blond chick from Grissom Academy). But no, Barquiel, her prior experience wasn't "one encounter with geth," it was "evading and defeating a team of professional assassins who hounded her halfway across the galaxy after recovering the Geth core." Barla Von then put her in touch with Fist.

I've never seen anything in any of the games about Liara's qualifications or experience except holding her own against a gaggle of pirates once.

I can buy Tali being competent in the areas of CQC, urban combat, electronics, demolitions, vehicle and engine repair, systems analysis (she and Adams take apart every artifact you find) and a whole host of useful areas. There are shortcomings, of course - areas the fleet would not have had the resources to train her, and the obvious immune-system issue. Only so much you can do without a planet.

Liara would be useful if there were some Prothean relic brought back to the ship, but beyond that, I wouldn't drag her into combat if it could be helped. They're both specialists with high-value skillsets, best reserved for situational use - others are better suited to kick the door.

[jtav]

I'm inclined to give a pass on Liara's combat skills. ME1 is a conscious pastiche of space opera. You need a geeky, beautiful, out of her depth scientist the captain can romance. And that means making her a squaddie because they weren't doing NPC romances in the trilogy yet.