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Is Liara the deuteragonist of the series?


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#376
MassivelyEffective0730

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The problem is if you ignore on the job training (gameplay/story segregation!) then by that measure:
Me1: only squadmates are ash and kaiden (maybe wrex too)
Me2: jacob, mordin, zaeed, the arse (although does she have any combat training?) and maybe garrus
Me3: james, javik and probably garrus by now.

So to be honest I think it is ridiculous to single out liara, but whatever floats your boat.

 

Actually, in ME1, Ashley and Kaidan are both fully trained Marines: Kaidan is an experienced officer who has strong biotic ability. Ashley, while in my personal opinion not anywhere close to being suited for the kinds of operations that is taking place, is an Infantry Non-Commissioned Officer. Wrex is a Krogan Battlemaster with a very long history of being a mercenary, a soldier, a gun-for-hire, etc. He's seen a lot of things, and he knows how to fight. Garrus meanwhile is an experienced C-Sec officer, with a prior history of service as in Turian Special Operations. He was apparently good enough that he was one time considered a candidate for being a Spectre (No easy task). Tali is the daughter of a Quarian Admiral; this doesn't necessarily mean she's military, but she was raised around a military environment, and it is specifically mentioned that she has received combatives training prior to leaving the flotilla. Liara, beyond her basic compulsory biotic training that all Asari go through, has no mention of any kind of combat ability or skill. The only thing going for her is that, due to her career working in the field, sometimes has faced armed pirates, so she has to have some kind of proficiency to be able to defend herself. She and Tali are the only ones who's actual skill in the field I'd call into question. And Tali at least has a prodigious affinity for technology and engineering. She doesn't necessarily need to be valuable on the battlefield to be a strong addition to the team. Her talents lie elsewhere. That leaves Liara with the only real questioning of utility. It could be argued that once you find the location of Ilos, there's no point to her being on the ship. She's the civilian who gets caught up in events, meant to be a beautiful, innocent LI for Shepard. And when you look at all the characters, she's by far the least qualified for field operations.

 

In ME1, it is acceptable to single out Liara; she's really the only person who can't pull her own weight on the ship. Or in ME2 for that matter. ****, or ME3. At least in 3, she has her information network that she operates, but in ME1, her purpose is to be the innocent civilian and damsel-in-distress that is tangentially related to the plot via relation to her mother being the dragon to Saren and her specific knowledge of the Protheans (that can actually be shown to be rather redundant if you save her after every other mission prior to Ilos.)

 

In ME2, everyone on the squad was specifically chosen for their skills in combat and beyond:

 

Miranda is TIM's top Lieutenant and operative, having at least a decade (possibly longer) of service in Cerberus. She's a genetically perfect polymath: her asset listing in ME3 describes her as a gifted biotic and skilled shot, and she demonstrates that she's a strong leader in combat on the SM. She has a level head and isn't fazed at all over the times she comes into conflict on the battlefield. Her Foundation comics show that she's definitely familiar with field and spy work. She'll do perfectly.

 

Jacob is a biotic who was also a former military officer in the alliance. He's got skill and capability, and he's a dependable, level-headed individual who is solid under fire.

 

Mordin is a former STG operative with wetwork and combat experience, and he's a polymath in many fields. 

 

Zaeed is a veteran mercenary and former alliance soldier with decades of experience and a history of missions accomplished, both known and unknown, that could be described as suicide missions.

 

Garrus has even more more experience having led his own anti-mercenary group throughout Omega, and single-handedly managing to take on and make a very good showing against no less than 3 of the biggest mercenary organizations in the Terminus Systems. He had his own team of skilled operatives, but he was still able to fight them on his own.

 

Grunt is a bloodthirsty and genetically perfect Krogan supersoldier with the inborn skills and knowledge of several of the greatest Krogan warriors. 

 

Jack is a psychotic career criminal with extreme psychopathic tendencies and unheard of levels of strength as biotic with years of her life being spent as a criminal, mercenary, kidnapper, pirate, and killer. While she's very unstable mentally and emotionally, there's no denying her affinity for killing and carnage.

 

Samara is an Asari Justicar. These people are absolutely revered and feared in equal measure in Asari space. She has centuries of combat experience and skills as a biotic that rival that of Asari Matriarchs. She has a very cool and dispassionate demeanor, willing and able to do absolutely whatever she has to do.

 

Thane is a feared Drell assassin, trained from his youth to be a hypercompetent agent for the Hanar, and with decades of experience as a sharpshooter, combatives expert, and biotic.

 

Tali is the same as before, but likely with more military training considering she's being sent as a civilian technical attache on special operations missions. She's not a fighter, but she knows what to do, and her skills are better than ever for engineering and technology.

 

Legion is a specialized Geth platform, hyper-durable, and capable of operating in any environment with machine precision and efficiency. 

 

Morinth is a psychopathic ardat-yakshi who has successfully managed to evade her mother, a justicar, for centuries. She has extreme talent with biotics that rival her mother.

 

James is a special forces Marine who has experience fighting the Collectors. He's capable and confidant, and, despite goofiness and relative inexperience compared to others, has the skill and training to be a productive member of the crew.

 

Javik is a 50,000 year old Prothean warrior, renowned even among his own people with very powerful and unique biotic skills. He has training, experience, and an understanding of the bitter reality of the nature of war that no other squadmate has. 

 

EDI meanwhile is an AI in a mech body very similar to Legion. 

 

As I said, Liara doesn't have much on these people. At all. I'm not singling her out over the others. She legit deserves criticism on this context. Kasumi and Tali are the only ones even remotely close on that level, but they at least having saving graces: Kasumi with her stealth skills and affinity for tech (I still don't know why her admittedly useful skills at thievery are relevant to a combat mission), and Tali with her engineering and technical skills.


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#377
MassivelyEffective0730

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I'm inclined to give a pass on Liara's combat skills. ME1 is a conscious pastiche of space opera. You need a geeky, beautiful, out of her depth scientist the captain can romance. And that means making her a squaddie because they weren't doing NPC romances in the trilogy yet.

 

I wouldn't even call Liara a scientist: she's an archaeologist. As I said in my bigger post, her purpose was to be the innocent civilian and damsel-in-distress that is tangentially related to the plot via relation to her mother being the dragon to Saren and her specific knowledge of the Protheans (that can actually be shown to be rather redundant if you save her after every other mission prior to Ilos.) She's meant to be the shy, geeky girl who wears her heart on her sleeve compared to the tough, tomboyish, and proud Ashley.

 

Granted though, our conclusions on her are pretty much identical. Her sole reason for existing in ME1 was to bed-buddy with Shepard.


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#378
Barquiel

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Uh, pretty sure I did.

"You can't go from loner civilian to badass commando in such a short time and without training. Liara goes through this sudden change even if she was never taken on a single mission in ME1."

Unless you're talking in-game special powers, which my argument was never about. Oh no, a silly .gif how dare I not take this incredibly important discussion seriously?

They're both civilians with little to no combat experience. Sure Liara is a biotic, so you might compare her to any other Asari civilian instead.

No I didn't, I merely made an example with Tali which led you to pick up an argument about her. Kaidan fought in more wars than Shepard and is more highly decorated, Wrex is an ancient veteran of countless wars and Ash at least fighs on a battlefield at the beginning of the game. There is no proof of Liara having any combat or weapons training and something along the lines is never mentioned by canon material. As a civilian archaeologist, who has zero to do with the military it's highly unlikely she received any formal training.

No, I never said any of that, that's your conclusion. I actually specifically said multiple times, that Tali is as unfit of fighting as Liara. I merely mentioned that Tali actually did receive combat training, which is canon.

So yes, like it or not, your argument is 100% based on speculation. If you find any canon source that clearly says Liara received extensive weapons and combat training, then please show it to me. Otherwise I'm afraid you have no point in arguing mate.


Again, what sudden change? Because she didn't fight on Therum? She's been locked in there for days, and it is part of the canon that biotics need to maintain their energy levels in order to main control over their biotics. An exhausted, malnourished and dehydrated biotic isn't going to be able to use his or her powers.

No, you can't. Falere is an untrained asari biotic. Did you see her attempt to attack the husk?

I don't have to proof that Liara had combat training. Maybe she trained for 20 years with Shiala, we don't know that. She's 106, more than enough time to train. You've stated that Liara is terrible written because she is a civilian with no combat or weapons training. And I've just pointed out that you were making this point up. Completely. You have no proof. That's like saying Kasumi is a terrible written character because she doesn't tell you where she learned to shoot. Or Mordin. Or Miranda...

And in what wars did Kaidan fought again? He's a bit too young for the first contact war. And the alliance didn't fought any other wars, only some smaller operations against batarian pirates.

#379
von uber

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The point, massively, was combat skills, not assassination or hacking.
Liara shows she has comabt skills by the time lotsb comes around, doesn't get more canon than that.

#380
themikefest

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 Look at how excited she got when she saw Shephard in ME2.

My femshep sure as heck wasn't excited about seeing her especially after receiving that what-the-crap hug.


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#381
FlyingSquirrel

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She isn't terrible written. "Liara's character is not consistent" is really an absurd complaint. As of all characters in ME1 she is the only one for who a more or less dramatic change actually makes sense. ME2 for example showcases a different side to Liara's personality, and presents a character that has, to a certain degree, lost her idealistic perception of the galaxy.

 

Why would the events surrounding Shepard's death, Cerberus, and the Shadow Broker cause her to lose her idealism when being attacked by geth, having her prothean theories turned upside down through a single conversation with Shepard, seeing her own mother indoctrinated and killed (including helping to kill her, if she's there on the Noveria mission), and witnessing the Citadel trashed in a near-miss of an invasion by superbeings apparently did not?

 

I'm not a Liara-hater - she's about in the middle on my list of most- to least-liked characters - but I don't buy the direction her character takes in ME2.


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#382
MassivelyEffective0730

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The point, massively, was combat skills, not assassination or hacking.
Liara shows she has comabt skills by the time lotsb comes around, doesn't get more canon than that.

 

She does, but I still doubt it's near anyone else's ability. That said, despite the unrealistic nature of the change and ****** poor execution of it, she at least now has an ability to work as an intelligence analyst and information broker, so she has a skill outside of her... lack of skill set beyond knowing how old a Prothean painting is or how a Prothean toilet functioned.



#383
DeinonSlayer

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My femshep sure as heck wasn't excited about seeing her especially after receiving that what-the-crap hug.

I was still too busy what-the-****ing over the "flay you with my mind" bit to really take in the hug that first time through. By the end of the conversation I was looking for a "just who the hell are you and what happened to Liara" dialogue option.

Subsequent playthroughs, the hug is just annoying. I see no reason why they had to make it unskippable.
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#384
General TSAR

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My femshep sure as heck wasn't excited about seeing her especially after receiving that what-the-crap hug.

Amen.

 

My Male/Shep recruited her right before Ilos and gave her a verbal asskicking, but all of sudden he is hugging her? Ech. And don't even get me started on Mass Effect Genesis. 


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#385
themikefest

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I was still too busy what-the-****ing over the "flay you with my mind" bit to really take in the hug that first time through. By the end of the conversation I was looking for a "just who the hell are you and what happened to Liara" dialogue option.

Subsequent playthroughs, the hug is just annoying. I see no reason why they had to make it unskippable.

It doesn't fit well for a Shepard that treats her like nothing in ME1 especially if you rescue her after Virmire. Also Shepard hugs her back like it was an everyday occurrence. I must've been playing Shepards stunt double during that scene.



#386
DeinonSlayer

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Amen.

My Male/Shep recruited her right before Ilos and gave her a verbal asskicking, but all of sudden he is hugging her? Ech. And don't even get me started on Mass Effect Genesis.

Trying to remember; the Genesis import tool for ME2 kind of spews about how beautiful and perfect she was, right?

I know the one for ME3 was extremely stripped down by comparison. Decisions like what to do with the genophage data, Tali's trial and Heretic Station didn't even appear, and Jack and (Thane, was it?) weren't available for romance.

#387
MassivelyEffective0730

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Trying to remember; the Genesis import tool for ME2 kind of spews about how beautiful and perfect she was, right?

I know the one for ME3 was extremely stripped down by comparison. Decisions like what to do with the genophage data, Tali's trial and Heretic Station didn't even appear, and Jack and (Thane, was it?) weren't available for romance.

 

For Male Shepard, only Miranda and Tali were romance options, and it treated them kind of ambivalently, especially compared to Liara in Genesis I.



#388
themikefest

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Trying to remember; the Genesis import tool for ME2 kind of spews about how beautiful and perfect she was, right?

I know the one for ME3 was extremely stripped down by comparison. Decisions like what to do with the genophage data, Tali's trial and Heretic Station didn't even appear, and Jack and (Thane, was it?) weren't available for romance.

Yes. Thats what Shepard says about T'soni. Apparently the mind meld gave Shepard a new appreciation for the Asari.



#389
DeinonSlayer

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Yes. Thats what Shepard says about T'soni. Apparently the mind meld gave Shepard a new appreciation for the Asari.

The same Shepard who can be resistent to and resentful of being brain-probed by her each time. Right.

#390
von uber

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Thing is, everyone is railroaded within these games. For every 'why did I have to hug her' there's a 'why couldn't I get miranda arrested for being a terrorist'.
Just have to suck it up really.
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#391
jtav

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Well one is "why do I have to follow the plotted line" and one is "why is the game deciding my relationships?" DA is much, much better about this than ME.
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#392
Barquiel

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Why would the events surrounding Shepard's death, Cerberus, and the Shadow Broker cause her to lose her idealism when being attacked by geth, having her prothean theories turned upside down through a single conversation with Shepard, seeing her own mother indoctrinated and killed (including helping to kill her, if she's there on the Noveria mission), and witnessing the Citadel trashed in a near-miss of an invasion by superbeings apparently did not?
 
I'm not a Liara-hater - she's probably somewhere in the middle on my list of favorite characters - but I don't buy the direction her character takes in ME2.


I think her "break the cutie arc" began the second she met Shepard and left Therum. But the squadmates in ME1 were...clumsily written ;)

I explained a few posts ago why I found it plausible.

#393
General TSAR

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Thing is, everyone is railroaded within these games. For every 'why did I have to hug her' there's a 'why couldn't I get miranda arrested for being a terrorist'.

Well for one thing Miranda is second in command of the Normandy and TIM's liaison and you can avoid hugging and embracing everyone but her hell in the Thessia aftermath you can't simply leave her to pout but have to either embrace her or sit on her bed.



#394
von uber

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Well one is "why do I have to follow the plotted line" and one is "why is the game deciding my relationships?" DA is much, much better about this than ME.


But all relationships are generally defined, pretty much everyone loves shep (unless you go out of your way to ****** people off).

#395
themikefest

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The same Shepard who can be resistent to and resentful of being brain-probed by her each time. Right.

Yes the same one.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=for8c0lESTU 4:40



#396
Barquiel

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Well, I find implausible plot railroading (Cerberus in ME2) much worse than some "canon" friendships with characters I don't like or mandatory squadmates in don't want on the ship (Tali in ME1).



#397
FlyingSquirrel

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In retropect, maybe Bioware shouldn't have had as many opportunities for Shepard to be outright rude and inconsiderate towards the squadmates if they weren't prepared to follow that to its logical conclusion, instead having the options be a more relaxed, informal style for the Paragon / top dialogue options and a more distant, "all business" approach for the Renegade / bottom dialogue choices. I don't think Liara is the only squadmate ever to prompt these discussions along the lines of "why do I suddenly have to be nice to squadmate X."



#398
N172

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Regarding Hugs:

You have to consider that things like that have different meanings around the world, in some places it is even common to kiss foreigners.

It is nothing more than a friend-hug and i have yet to see a possibility to un-friend any ME-squadmate without killing them.



#399
themikefest

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Why couldn't they of made the hug optional like they did after you kill the Shadow Broker?



#400
DeinonSlayer

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Why couldn't they of made the hug optional like they did after you kill the Shadow Broker?

David's answer: She is not 'fainty' in ME1. Any heroic individual will be tired after their meaningful conflict, especially when the hero is there to comfort them and train them from being a shy and meek civilian specialist into one of the best soldiers in the galaxy in a matter of weeks. And the second part is nonsense. There is nothing wrong with having mandatory characters that the player can't define their relationships with. There is nothing wrong with Liara being 'forced' to be Shepard's best friend. Without meaningful characters, you wouldn't have a good story, and BioWare knows how to make a better story than any fans do. All these people shill and complain about Liara being a 'bad' character because she's good and heroic and smart and beautiful. It's weak of course. They can't handle the fact that they'll never be anything, with no power. All these 'renegade' players. How childish.

If you can't tell, I'm pretty bored. So I decided to imitated David.


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