623 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

Each of those actions contribute in advancing the plot, but does it happen in a frequent rate? It's more like they just happen to do something that advance the plot rather than integrate into it the way Liara is. For example, the friar in Romeo and Juliet could also be seen as a deuteragonist if we only look at his specific part that led to their death.

Liara's actions aren't exactly frequent either, she saves Shep and discovers the Crucible that's it. Mordin made fighting Collectors possible, stopped the disease on Omega and cured/sabotaged the genophage for example, that alone doesn't make him the the second most important character. I don't see how Liara's actions exclusively integrate into the plot.

[Battlebloodmage]

I learned a word today.

And knowing is half the battle.

 

[Mordokai]

No one made Liara the deuteragonist by default, you're just blinded by your own bias.

 

And you're not?

[Battlebloodmage]

Liara's actions aren't exactly frequent either, she saves Shep and discovers the Crucible that's it. Mordin made fighting Collectors possible, stopped the disease on Omega and cured/sabotaged the genophage for example, that alone doesn't make him the the second most important character. I don't see how Liara's actions exclusively integrate into the plot.

Because she's directly involved in the cut scenes and main plot. Her frequent on-screen appearance and her involvement in the main plot makes her the deuteragonist. Genophage is a side story like with Tali and Garrus' screentime. Their screentime may seem like more if you skip Liara and do theirs, but their involvement doesn't usually directly affect the main plot like Liara does. Liara's involvement affect Shepard on a personal level. Shepard would die without her, the crucible wouldn't finish without her, the next generation wouldn't be able to win the reaper wars without her info. 

[Sir DeLoria]

And you're not?

...sometimes. But hey I'm arguing that there is no default deuteragonist, you're arguing "it's mu waifu". Who's biased here?

[grey_wind]

Why is it relevant whether or not Liara is the deuteragonist?

 

Even if we can agree that she probably is, that still doesn't justify all the contrivances and hoops the plot constantly pulls out of its arse to keep her relevant and with a large role.

[Battlebloodmage]

...sometimes. But hey I'm arguing that there is no default deuteragonist, you're arguing "it's mu waifu". Who's biased here?

I'm definitely not into Liara. People can see Liara as a deuteragonist from an objective standpoint and not because they have a boner for her.

[Barquiel]

I wouldn't call her the deuteragonist. She's certainly the second most important character in Mass Effect, but the games don't really revolve around her (except LotSB, of course).

[Sir DeLoria]

Because she's directly involved in the cut scenes and main plot. Her frequent on-screen appearance and her involvement in the main plot makes her the deuteragonist. Genophage is a side story like with Tali and Garrus' screentime. Their screentime may seem like more if you skip Liara and do theirs, but their involvement doesn't usually directly affect the main plot like Liara does.

All of Mordin's actions were just as on-screen and relevant to the plot, he had frequent appearances as well. Her involvement in the main plot isn't outstanding either, multiple characters are far more important than her.

Arguing about screen time and amount of scenes is pointless because this is an RPG and everyone can decide which minor scenes they want to see and which they don't. That's my entire point, there is no default deuteragonist because the story of every player can turn out differently and Liara's actions aren't enough to make her more important than everyone else.

[Mordokai]

...sometimes. But hey I'm arguing that there is no default deuteragonist, you're arguing "it's mu waifu". Who's biased here?

 

Nope. I'm arguing she a deuteragonist based on evidence presented in the game. That she is my chosen LI and "waifu", as you so succinctly put it, never entered into the picture.

[Sir DeLoria]

It doesn't apply to me, right?

Well, I don't know how much you like Liara. We're having more of a discussion about the story

[Sir DeLoria]

Nope. I'm arguing she a deuteragonist based on evidence presented in the game. That she is my chosen LI and "waifu", as you so succinctly put it, never entered into the picture.

She can be important to the plot, she can be the deuteragonist. I assume she is in your game, well she isn't in mine.

I'm just saying, Liara isn't that important by default.

[Battlebloodmage]

Why is it relevant whether or not Liara is the deuteragonist?

 

Even if we can agree that she probably is, that still doesn't justify all the contrivances and hoops the plot constantly pulls out of its arse to keep her relevant and with a large role.

What about her popularity? She ranks at the top in almost every poll out there.

[Battlebloodmage]

She can be important to the plot, she can be the deuteragonist. I assume she is in your game, well she isn't in mine.

I'm just saying, Liara isn't that important by default.

By default? Wouldn't default mean that you do every plot out there instead of intentionally skipping them? If so, she would have a lot of contents in term of main plots and side quests revolving around her compared to other characters.

 

Also if we're talking about default, she's usually the default character. Especially in ME3, she's the default for almost every scene if you don't have a LI, especially the flashback near the ending before the extended cut. 

[Mordokai]

She can be important to the plot, she can be the deuteragonist. I assume she is in your game, well she isn't in mine.

I'm just saying, Liara isn't that important by default.

 

Without her, there is no second and third game. Without her, there is no galaxy anymore. Without her, there is no game... mine, yours... any game.

 

But I guess she's not really that important.

[grey_wind]

What about her popularity? She ranks at the top in almost every poll out there.

She's definitely popular, but just because she's popular that doesn't necessarily make her a good character or justify the way the plot keeps bending over backwards to keep her relevant.

[Sir DeLoria]

By default? Wouldn't default mean that you do every plot out there instead of intentionally skipping them? If so, she would have a lot of contents in term of main plots and side quests revolving around her compared to other characters.
 
Also if we're talking about default, she's usually the default character. Especially in ME3, she's the default for almost every scene if you don't have a LI, especially the flashback near the ending before the extended cut.

I don't think you get my point, what I'm saying is that Liara isn't automatically the deuteragonist, because every player can to an extent shape the plot. Skipping Liara's content is fair and square.

[Sir DeLoria]

Without her, there is no second and third game. Without her, there is no galaxy anymore. Without her, there is no game... mine, yours... any game.

But I guess she's not really that important.

So? Same goes for Tali, she found out about the whole existence of the Reapers before they could use the conduit. She saved the entire galaxy, is she now the automatic deuteragonist?

Btw, there are many characters that were as plot relevant, Tali is just a strong example.

[Mordokai]

So? Same goes for Tali, she found out about the whole existence of the Reapers before they could use the conduit. She saved the entire galaxy, is she now the automatic deuteragonist?

Btw, there are many characters that were as plot relevant, Tali is just a strong example.

 

The omni tool with data could be picked from her corpse. She was relevant to the saving of the galaxy, but hardly needed. That was the game enforcing you to save her, but there was really no need to do it. Contrast to Liara, who you need to figure out Saren is going to Ilos, where you need her alive.

[von uber]

She's definitely popular, but just because she's popular that doesn't necessarily make her a good character or justify the way the plot keeps bending over backwards to keep her relevant.

The same could be said about every character though.

[Sir DeLoria]

The omni tool with data could be picked from her corpse. She was relevant to the saving of the galaxy, but hardly needed. That was the game enforcing you to save her, but there was really no need to do it. Contrast to Liara, who you need to figure out Saren is going to Ilos, where you need her alive.

Something any Asari with decent knowledge of Protheans could do, anyone could have picked up Shep's corpse and sent it to Cerberus. Liara was relevant but hardly needed and easily replaceable.

I'm using the same argumentation as you are

[Mordokai]

Something any Asari with decent knowledge of Protheans could do, anyone could have picked up Shep's corpse and sent it to Cerberus.

I'm using the same argumentation as you are

 

There are no other asari with decent Prothean knowledge around. At least not the ones with blood connections to the Saren's second in command. There was nobody else to send Shepard's corpse back to Cerberus.

 

Basically, it boils down to this. The game can and does continue with anybody but Liara dead. That's what makes her the second most important character in story.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Without her, there is no second and third game. Without her, there is no galaxy anymore. Without her, there is no game... mine, yours... any game.

 

But I guess she's not really that important.

 

She really shouldn't have been that important. I'm saying that it was indeed a bad decision to make her so plot relevant.

[Sir DeLoria]

There are no other asari with decent Prothean knowledge around. At least not the ones with blood connections to the Saren's second in command. There was nobody else to send Shepard's corpse back to Cerberus.

Basically, it boils down to this. The game can and does continue with anybody but Liara dead. That's what makes her the second most important character in story.

No one could've decripited Geth data except for Tali, no one except for Mordin could've solved the problem with the Collectors, no one could've resurrected Shep except for Miranda, EDI saved everyone multiple times. The game couldn't have continued without any of these characters, Liara is hardly the second most important, all characters are equally important.

Btw, blood connections to Saren's second are overall pretty irrelevant.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

There are no other asari with decent Prothean knowledge around. At least not the ones with blood connections to the Saren's second in command. There was nobody else to send Shepard's corpse back to Cerberus.

 

Basically, it boils down to this. The game can and does continue with anybody but Liara dead. That's what makes her the second most important character in story.

 

I think that was a mechanic that should have been nixed. I think Liara should have been completely left out of the Redemption arc, and had it focus more on Cerberus acquiring Shepard's body from the Blue Suns, Shadow Broker, and Collectors, with new characters, or possibly even Miranda and Jacob (to set them up for the next game), and to have used ME3 characters like James to end up finding the Prothean data via the Collectors or on a mission. It sets up characters for the next game. 

 

Even without those, I can understand the idea for Liara in ME1 and ME2, but once ME3 starts, it really should be anybody's game on who can live and who can die or who gets sent off to Hackett or why. ME3's vital plot relevance, in my opinion, should not extend past the Mars mission.